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Why Praise God When He's The One Who Brought Coronavirus To Us?

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Does this mean that His disciples would never see Him again. If not, then why do you think that John 14:19 means that the world will never see Him again.
Maybe because that is what the verse actually says?

John 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.
Surely all Jesus was saying was that He was going back to heaven soon and won't be around in bodily form to be seen.
That's right, so why do you think Jesus is coming back? The verse says "no more."
Remember what you always said about the plain meaning?

no more
phrase of more

  1. nothing further.
    "there was no more to be said about it"

  2. no further.
    "you must have some soup, but no more wine"

  3. exist no longer.
    "the patch of ground was overgrown and the hut was no more"

  4. never again.
    "mention his name no more to me"

  5. neither.
    "I had no complaints and no more did Tom"
Translate no more to
Definitions from Oxford Languages
You believe the disciples Jesus spoke to would see Him again so why not believe that the whole world will see Him when He returns, just as the scriptures tell us.
"when He returns, just as the scriptures tell us."

Eight years in forums posting to Christians and I am still waiting for one Christian to quote any verse wherein Jesus says He is going to return but I guess I will be waiting till hell freezes over. :rolleyes:
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
Was Jesus just objecting to Mary Magdalene touching him(?) because others took hold of resurrected Jesus' feet at Matthew 28:9,1.
Perhaps Mary thought Jesus would leave right away.
So, when Jesus told Mary to go to his disciples he was showing he was still going to be hanging around.- Matthew 28:10

A physical body does Not enter a closed room.
Resurrected Jesus appears twice in a shut room - John 20:17-19, and 8 days later at John 20:26-30
So, Jesus used different materialized bodies to appear.
The body of verse 26 was for doubting Thomas.
If resurrected Jesus would have used that same body that he used for Thomas, he would have Not been mistaken for a stranger.
- Luke 24:15-18


A spiritual body is a body controlled by a person's spirit. We KNOW Jesus had a physical body when He rose from the dead because that is what the scriptures tell us. We also know that it was a changed resurrection body, one that could be controlled by His spirit and appear in a closed room etc. We do not know the other amazing things that our resurrection body will be able to do.​
With regards Luke 24:15-18, have you not read that the reason they did not recognise Him was because they had been stopped from recognising Him. It was not a different body at all.
Luke 24:31 Then their eyes were opened and they recognized him, and he disappeared from their sight.
The real question is whether now that you know this, will you stop saying that He had a different body for that appearance or not?
The body in John 20:17-19 was His real body because He proved He was Jesus and had risen from the dead by showing them the wounds in His hands and side. Why would He have had a different body with Thomas, same body, same wounds.
John 20:19 On the evening of that first day of the week, when the disciples were together, with the doors locked for fear of the Jewish leaders, Jesus came and stood among them and said, “Peace be with you!” 20 After he said this, he showed them his hands and side. The disciples were overjoyed when they saw the Lord.
At Matt 28:10 Jesus was saying that He would hang around but not saying that He would not go back to heaven also before He ascended to heaven. When He ascended to heave in Matthew's Gospel He already had been given all power in heaven and on earth, so I presume that means that He had been to the Father to receive this.
John 20:16 Jesus said to her, “Mary.” She turned and said to Him in Hebrew, “Rabboni!” (which means “Teacher”). 17 “Do not cling to Me,” Jesus said, “for I have not yet ascended to the Father. But go and tell My brothers, ‘I am ascending to My Father and your Father, to My God and your God.’”
Jesus had actually said to Mary Magdalene that He was going to ascend to heaven. This was no doubt when He received all power in heaven and on earth.
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
Maybe because that is what the verse actually says?

John 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

That's right, so why do you think Jesus is coming back? The verse says "no more."
Remember what you always said about the plain meaning?

no more
phrase of more

  1. nothing further.
    "there was no more to be said about it"

  2. no further.
    "you must have some soup, but no more wine"

  3. exist no longer.
    "the patch of ground was overgrown and the hut was no more"

  4. never again.
    "mention his name no more to me"

  5. neither.
    "I had no complaints and no more did Tom"
Translate no more to
Definitions from Oxford Languages

"when He returns, just as the scriptures tell us."

Eight years in forums posting to Christians and I am still waiting for one Christian to quote any verse wherein Jesus says He is going to return but I guess I will be waiting till hell freezes over. :rolleyes:

Since I have quoted John 14:3 to you a million times, I guess that means you are very forgetful when you say that Christians have shown you where Jesus said He is going to return.
John 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am.
Why do you think that Jesus said to His disciples that they would see Him no longer when other verses say that they would see Him, and probably even you think that one sweet morning when your life is over you will fly away and actually see Jesus.
If you think that then you already know that when Jesus said that the disciples and the world would see Him no more just means that He was off to heaven and they wouldn't see Him in this life.
If I had to choose one of your phrases on the use of "no more" in a sentence I would choose (2) as the closest.

no further.
"you must have some soup, but no more wine"

It does not mean that the person will never have any more wine, it means that they should not have any more wine just then at that times.
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
No, I believe the Bible was wholly written by plain old Jewish and Greek scribes without any guidance whatsoever from a Higher entity. But if we're to assume as the Christians do that it is God-breathed then the King James is reputed to be the very best most excellent translation because it was done 500 years ago when the English language was much cleaner and free from idioms, corruptions, vague definitions of newer words, etc. "Evil" meant exactly that: EVIL, not "discomfort" "calamity" "uncertainty" and other nonsensical words to blunt a characteristic about God that apologists don't like.

Perfect example:

"And he could do no mighty work there..." Mark 6:5

Later theologians didn't like the sound of Jesus being powerless. I mean what kind of nincompoop god lacks power, right? So they called on the later gospel writers to ramp up Jesus' power but keep the original context. So here's what the writers of Matthew came up with:

"And he did not do many miracles there..." Matthew 13:58

You like that? Instead of not being able to do miracles at all, now Jesus IS able to but chooses not to do many of them. Clever, huh?

This what I mean about interpretations getting skewed over the course of time to slant in whatever direction the church wants it to slant.

The English language has changed in 500 years and the translators of the KJV did not have access to the better manuscripts that we have these days.
What is wrong with Jesus not being able to do many mighty works as described in Mark?
It obviously means that the people did not have the faith needed for Jesus to want to do those works imo. He did some miracles, but no doubt only for those who had the faith. I don't think He had run low on power or anything.
Mark 6:4 Jesus said to them, “A prophet is not without honor except in his own town, among his relatives and in his own home.” 5 He could not do any miracles there, except lay his hands on a few sick people and heal them. 6 He was amazed at their lack of faith.
 

capumetu

Active Member
I don't get it. I read a lot of COVID long haulers stories of ongoing suffering and misery on several forums (people whose symptoms mild and severe linger months possibly years after finally testing negative). Many to most ask for prayers to get over it and a few who praise God when they do--only to fall ill against weeks or months later in many cases.

What I don't get is the Bible says this:

I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. Isaiah 45:7

Instead of praising God we should be holding Him responsible for all the misery and death Coronavirus is doing to us. He tells us in no uncertain words He's the one who created this monstrous evil we have labeled Coronavirus.

Now before you throw "Bad translation" at me you should know that this is the King James, widely regarded as the most perfect translation ever done. Many Christians regard it as the authoritative word of God straight from God's mouth.

So God brings something as evil as Coronavirus on us and people are praising Him for it. Sort of like when someone kicks you, you say, "I like that. Do it again."

I just don't get the logic--or illogic of it, that's a better word.

The only way to find out if God is evil, is to live under His Kingdom sir, therefore you will have to be there during the Millennial reign of Christ, where satan and those who belong to him, are no longer there. Jehovah will show the contrast of what He can do in just 1 millennium vs satans and mans 6k
 

SeekingAllTruth

Well-Known Member
The only way to find out if God is evil, is to live under His Kingdom sir, therefore you will have to be there during the Millennial reign of Christ, where satan and those who belong to him, are no longer there. Jehovah will show the contrast of what He can do in just 1 millennium vs satans and mans 6k
I am not planning for a millennial reign, cap. I simply don't believe in it. I think it is an invention of the church.
 

SeekingAllTruth

Well-Known Member
The English language has changed in 500 years and the translators of the KJV did not have access to the better manuscripts that we have these days.
What is wrong with Jesus not being able to do many mighty works as described in Mark?
It obviously means that the people did not have the faith needed for Jesus to want to do those works imo. He did some miracles, but no doubt only for those who had the faith. I don't think He had run low on power or anything.
Mark 6:4 Jesus said to them, “A prophet is not without honor except in his own town, among his relatives and in his own home.” 5 He could not do any miracles there, except lay his hands on a few sick people and heal them. 6 He was amazed at their lack of faith.
I don't think God's power should be subordinate to lack of faith, Brian. Mary didn't have faith when Jesus raised Lazarus, yet he could do it. Why the one time and not the other? If God had to rely on people's faith to get things done we'd all be in trouble, right?
 

SeekingAllTruth

Well-Known Member
If you mean "evil" as in moral evil, then that is your error.
No, not moral evil. I think God is referring to bringing catastrophe, pain and misery on people. See all the human suffering out there? God brings it. But He is not morally evil himself.
 

SeekingAllTruth

Well-Known Member
You do not know his agenda because you are not him. Only SeekingAllTruth (and the All-Knowing God) know his agenda so unless he tells us what his agenda is we cannot know what it is.

66: O EMIGRANTS! The tongue I have designed for the mention of Me, defile it not with detraction. If the fire of self overcome you, remember your own faults and not the faults of My creatures, inasmuch as every one of you knoweth his own self better than he knoweth others. The Hidden Words of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 45

Just because someone is against the Bible that does not mean they have an ‘anti-Bible agenda.’ You have not been in this forum long so I will fill you in. Many people on this forum are anti-Bible or anti-Christianity but that does not mean they have an ‘anti-Bible agenda.’ One does not follow from the other. In my opinion he is just trying to find people to talk to about the Bible and other things, and n as I said before I think he is a true seeker so he wants to know the truth about God and Jesus, whatever it is.

But even if @ SeekingAllTruth does have such an agenda it is his right to post whatever he wants to as long as he follows the forum rules. One of those rules is not to insult other people and he is posting well within that rule, but you are hovering in the edge with your off-handed remarks.

You have a right to revere the Bible but don’t expect other people to share your views. You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make him drink. This is a religious forum and everyone has a right to their own opinions. If you do not like people talking about the Bible that way perhaps this is not the forum for you, or perhaps you need to post on threads where nobody is challenging the Bible.

Nobody needs to expose the Bible for what it is as everyone on this forum knows all about the Bible, both Christians and atheists, and especially those ex-Christians who were Christians for most of their lives.

I defend @ SeekingAllTruth because I consider my friend and also because justice is very important to me. Justice is just as important as love and it was the primary teaching of Baha’u’llah.

2: O SON OF SPIRIT! The best beloved of all things in My sight is Justice; turn not away therefrom if thou desirest Me, and neglect it not that I may confide in thee. By its aid thou shalt see with thine own eyes and not through the eyes of others, and shalt know of thine own knowledge and not through the knowledge of thy neighbor. Ponder this in thy heart; how it behooveth thee to be. Verily justice is My gift to thee and the sign of My loving-kindness. Set it then before thine eyes.
The Hidden Words of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 3-4

“Say: Observe equity in your judgment, ye men of understanding heart! He that is unjust in his judgment is destitute of the characteristics that distinguish man’s station.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 204

Justice means punishing actions or words that are wrong and upholding things that are good. This helps ensure that wrongs will be ended and rights will be upheld thereby leading to a safer society for everyone. It would seem sometimes that children have a keen internal sense of justice.
What is justice and why is it important? - Quora

It is an injustice to judge someone unfairly and that is why I stand up for people when I see that they are being judged unfairly. Jesus said to judge not lest ye be judged, not only because you will be judged in return. That is a selfish reason not to judge people. The most important reason not to judge is because it is unjust to judge others.

That is your opinion that I need context but given the point I was trying to make I did not need the context. I did not need to go on about why Jesus said that because I was only pointing out that we should not judge other people.

I believe that Jesus was telling us not to judge other people and then he told us some of the consequences of judging other people: 2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

It might be true that if we use righteous judgment we are more likely to be judged righteously and if we use unfair judgment then we are more likely to be judged unfairly, but Jesus did not give that as a reason not to judge so that is your addition to the text.

Matthew 7:1-2 King James Version (KJV)

7 Judge not, that ye be not judged.
2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

Matthew 7:3-5 King James Version (KJV)

3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?
5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.


In my opinion, what Jesus said in Matthew 7:3-5 is more important than what He said in Matthew 7:1-2. Judging other people in the context of these verses is looking at their faults so what Jesus is saying is not to look at the faults of others but rather look at your own faults. Baha’u’llah said the same thing.

26: O SON OF BEING! How couldst thou forget thine own faults and busy thyself with the faults of others? Whoso doeth this is accursed of Me. The Hidden Words of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 10

I feel very strongly about people finding fault with other people because my religion teaches not to find fault with others. The Baha'i Faith teaches that if a man has nine bad qualities and only one good quality we should only look at the one good quality and ignore the other nine qualities. It also teaches us not to offend other people.

“The most hateful characteristic of man is fault-finding. (‘Abdu’l-Bahá, Star of the West, Vol. IV, No.11, p. 192)

“Beware lest ye offend the feelings of anyone, or sadden the heart of any person, or move the tongue in reproach of and finding fault with anybody, whether he is friend or stranger, believer or enemy . . . Beware, beware that any one rebuke or reproach a soul, though he may be an ill-wisher and an ill-doer.” (Abdu’l-Bahá, Tablets of Abdu’l-Bahá v1, p. 44)

“All religions teach that we should love one another; that we should seek out our own shortcomings before we presume to condemn the faults of others, that we must not consider ourselves superior to our neighbours! We must be careful not to exalt ourselves lest we be humiliated.” (Abdu’l-Bahá, Paris Talks, p. 147)


I was not appealing to any authority, I have no authority. I was only replying to your questions regarding conjoined twins and why I was defending SeekingAllTruth.

Making such snide comments about me is insulting other people. Insulting people only makes you look like a bad Christian. Moreover, Christians on this forum do not normally insult other people just because they disagree with them, and since people on this forum do not normally insult other people those who do that stick out like a sore thumb.

How do you know what good my education did for me? You do not know me. Who are you to judge me? Judging others is going against what Jesus taught, and maybe you do not even realize that. Jesus said “Judge not, that ye be not judged.” Jesus did not say it is okay to judge people under certain circumstances.

My education did me a lot of good, as it helped me see the patterns of human behavior and why people do what they do. It also helped me recognize when people are projecting their own thoughts and feelings onto other people which is a very common human behavior.

Psychological projection is a theory in psychology in which humans defend themselves against their own unconscious impulses or qualities (both positive and negative) by denying their existence in themselves while attributing them to others.[1] For example, a person who is habitually rude may constantly accuse other people of being rude. It incorporates blame shifting.
Psychological projection - Wikipedia

Excellent post, Trailblazer. One of your best, thank you. I could decide whether to give it a Winner or Informative so I went with Winner. :)
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Since I have quoted John 14:3 to you a million times, I guess that means you are very forgetful when you say that Christians have shown you where Jesus said He is going to return.
That verse is not Jesus saying He is going to return to earth.

John 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

John 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.


When Jesus said “I will come again” He was not referring to His physical body coming again. Jesus said that His work was finished here and He was no more in the world: (John 14:19, John 17:4, John 17:11).

Since Jesus said He (Jesus) was no more in the world and the world would see Him (Jesus) no more we know that when He said "and receive you unto myself" He was not talking about His physical body, but rather He was referring to His spirit.

As you already know, I believe that the spirit of Jesus did come again, in the Person of Baha'u'llah who was the return of Christ that Jesus promised. So when Jesus said “I will come again” He meant that His Spirit would come again because He would send His Spirit from the Father, and we see that in the verses that follow in John 14. Jesus promised not to leave us comfortless and then He said He would send a Comforter. The Comforter refers to the person who would be the return of Christ. So when Jesus said I will come again, He meant He would send His spirit in the person of the Comforter who would do what it says in John 14:26.

18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.
20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.
25 These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you.
26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
27 Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.
28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.
29 And now I have told you before it come to pass, that, when it is come to pass, ye might believe.


"and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also” is referring to heaven, not earth, because Jesus was going to heaven to prepare a place in heaven, not on earth. Jesus was preparing a place in heaven so they could be with him in heaven.

John 14:3 is one of the most misunderstood verses in the New Testament so it is no wonder the Bible commentaries do not agree on what it means.
John 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am.

Why do you think that Jesus said to His disciples that they would see Him no longer when other verses say that they would see Him
Jesus said that because the disciples would see Jesus in the spiritual world (heaven), where Jesus went to prepare a place for them.

John 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
If you think that then you already know that when Jesus said that the disciples and the world would see Him no more just means that He was off to heaven and they wouldn't see Him in this life.
That’s right. Jesus meant He would no longer be in this world so the disciples that were there at the time would not see Him again during their lives, but they would see Jesus in heaven later, as noted above.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Excellent post, Trailblazer. One of your best, thank you. I could decide whether to give it a Winner or Informative so I went with Winner. :)
Thanks. I worked hard on that because I felt that those things had to be said, so it is nice to know that someone appreciated it. :)
As you know, I had the same problem with one of your posts, not knowing whether to give it an Informative or a Winner, so now we are even Steven. ;)
 

1213

Well-Known Member
Sorry to hear you had it. Are you a long hauler?

Luckily in my case it was not so bad. I had 5 days about 37,5 degrees Celsius fever and a little cough. If it would not be this Corona age, I probably would not have gone to doctor at all, but because other wanted to know do I have it, I went into the test.

Nice thing is that now I know something about it personally and also by that I know 5 other who have had it also, at least if the tests were correct.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Trailblazer said: God foresaw what would happen when He made the universe, but God did not intend for humans to do what they have done.

No, that's ruled out by God's omnipotence. God could have made the universe any way [he] pleased, since [he] always had perfect knowledge of everything that would ever happen. [He] made it THIS way, with that knowledge, and that was [HIS] choice, [HIS] preference, [HIS] decision, [HIS] will.
I am not disagreeing with any of that, I agree with all of what you said above.

What I disagree with is that God intended for humans to do what they have done. Because we have free will and God allows us to do what we want to do, that means that what has happened since God created the universe is the result of human intentions. God is not involved in what happens down here on earth. The only involvement God has with humans is when He sends a Messenger and communicates to Him.
Trailblazer said: The fly in the ointment for your argument is that God gave humans free will, and even though an omnipotent God could override human free will God chooses not to do so.

How can human will be free when God already perfectly knew everything you'd ever think say or do more than 14 billion years ago, and you're ABSOLUTELY powerless to deviate from that perfect foresight.
I think we have adequately covered this before but I will explain it again.

What God knows will happen in the future (what God foresaw) is not what causes it to happen in the future. God's knowledge is identical with what will happen in the future simply because the All-Knowing God knows what will happen in the future.

“The Prophets, through the divine inspiration, knew what would come to pass. For instance, through the divine inspiration They knew that Christ would be martyred, and They announced it. Now, was Their knowledge and information the cause of the martyrdom of Christ?......

The mathematicians by astronomical calculations know that at a certain time an eclipse of the moon or the sun will occur. Surely this discovery does not cause the eclipse to take place.” Some Answered Questions, pp. 138-139


“Every act ye meditate is as clear to Him as is that act when already accomplished. There is none other God besides Him. His is all creation and its empire. All stands revealed before Him; all is recorded in His holy and hidden Tablets. This fore-knowledge of God, however, should not be regarded as having caused the actions of men, just as your own previous knowledge that a certain event is to occur, or your desire that it should happen, is not and can never be the reason for its occurrence.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 150


Human free will decisions and the ensuing actions are what causes things to happen and thus these decisions and actions determine what God already knows will happen in the future. We cannot deviate from what God knows we will do simply because what God knows is IDENTICAL with what we will choose to do (since God knows what we will choose to do). However, it is not God’s knowledge that causes us to do what we do; it is us who causes it to happen.

Fate and predestination is a whole different subject although it is related. You can say that we are acting out our own fate which has been predetermined by God, but not all of our fate is written in marble, since some of our fate is impending. There are two kinds of fate, irrevocable and impending. God never changes our irrevocable fate (even though He could) but our impending fate is subject to change according to what we do. For example, if we pray and supplicate to God to change our fate, God might change it, if it is in our best interest to do so. Of course, God knew he would change it because God’s knowledge surrounds the realities of all things, before, during, and after they occur in this material world.
Trailblazer said: I consider that patently absurd. God is not responsible for man’s moral choices

Exactly the same again ─ you can ONLY make those moral choices God perfectly foresaw, so they're God's choices for you, not your own.

Or else God is not omni or perfect, of course, Which returns our discussion to physics and freewill.
Again, what God foresaw is not what causes anything to happen. God does not make our moral choices, we do. Just because God perfectly foresaw what our moral choices would be that does not mean God made those choices for us.
Trailblazer said: so why should God clean up the mess after humans?

It's no one's mess but God's. There was never any power in humans to avoid it.
Oh Lord Jesus! That is patently absurd. God gave humans free will to choose and the entire mess was made by humans. God has no culpability whatsoever.
Trailblazer said: If man followed God’s teachings and laws there would be no immorality so there would be no “bad things” happening.

God made the universe with full knowledge knowing that would be impossible because of the way [he]'d made the universe.
But you are wrong, because it is possible for people to follow God’s teachings and laws. The proof of that is that some people do follow God’s teachings and laws. The reason that other people do not follow them is because they have free will to choose not to.
To be human is to have the strong feeling that you own your (unforced) choices, and we project that onto others and hold them responsible for their decisions and answer for our own.
Unless we are mentally ill or mentally challenged or brain damaged or we have not reached adulthood, we are responsible for our choices because we have free will to choose. That free will is constrained by many factors so we cannot choose to do anything we want to do but we can make moral choices such as not to murder someone or commit a burglary.
No brain, no choices. Soul is at very very best an unevidenced and unproven hypothesis. Its mechanisms for decision-making have been well studied and much learnt, particularly this century. I recommend Mariano Sigman's The Secret Life of the Mind as a clear and easy introduction.
The soul works through the brain while we are alive in a physical body but the brain is just gray matter, it does not have a conscience. It is the rational soul that determines what we will do.
Trailblazer said: For so many atheists God is omnipotent means “God should do whatever I expect Him to do.”

If God exists, yes, I expect [him] to act morally, and to be accountable for [his] endless moral failures. The world behaves exactly as though gods only exist as conceptual / imaginary things in individual human brains.
Lol, God has no moral failures because a perfect and infallible God is not subject to morality. All God is responsible for is (a) creating the universe and (b) sending Messengers; God has no other responsibilities. In the everlasting Covenant God promised the Jews that He would never leave man alone without guidance and that Covenant is still in force today. God has never left man alone without guidance because God has sent a Messenger in every age and will continue to do so as long as humans exist. A Covenant is an agreement and it is a two-way street. God promised to send the Messengers but man is responsible for recognizing them and following their teachings and laws. Humans cannot blame God is they fail to live up to their end of the bargain. That is unfair and unjust.
Always a pleasure!
Likewise. :)
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Because we have free will and God allows us to do what we want to do, that means that what has happened since God created the universe is the result of human intentions.
No. If I make a clockwork doll and wind it up and it walks across the table and fall off the far edge, the doll is only doing what I want it to do. We don't have theological free will because we NEVER have the option of acting differently to God's perfect foresight. If God didn't want Trump elected, [he] could either not have created Trump, or made him sane, or simply let Hilary win. But his perfectly foreseen design calls for Trump. QED.
God is not involved in what happens down here on earth. The only involvement God has with humans is when He sends a Messenger and communicates to Him.
[He] doesn't have to be ─ [he]'s perfectly known for 14 bn years everything that will ever happen. It always and only goes to plan.
But you are wrong, because it is possible for people to follow God’s teachings and laws.
If and only if that's exactly what God perfectly foresaw.
The proof of that is that some people do follow God’s teachings and laws. The reason that other people do not follow them is because they have free will to choose not to.
Not if God is omni. They can only "choose" what God has always known they'd choose. They have no option. And God built the universe so they'd choose whatever it is they choose.
Unless we are mentally ill or mentally challenged or brain damaged or we have not reached adulthood, we are responsible for our choices
That's a human perspective (and takes us to arguments against free will from physics}. We feel we own our choices and our society holds us responsible. But all the time we're running down the one groove available to us, God's perfect foresight and intention.
Lol, God has no moral failures because a perfect and infallible God is not subject to morality.
If God is omni and benevolent then God represents the best of morality. That includes moral obligations to help in crises. And that doesn't happen.

So God's morality is not mine, rather is one of monstrous indifference and neglect, and I reject [him] and [his] values totally.

As, if you're right, [he] always intended I should.
 
I don't get it. I read a lot of COVID long haulers stories of ongoing suffering and misery on several forums (people whose symptoms mild and severe linger months possibly years after finally testing negative). Many to most ask for prayers to get over it and a few who praise God when they do--only to fall ill against weeks or months later in many cases.

What I don't get is the Bible says this:

I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. Isaiah 45:7

Instead of praising God we should be holding Him responsible for all the misery and death Coronavirus is doing to us. He tells us in no uncertain words He's the one who created this monstrous evil we have labeled Coronavirus.

Now before you throw "Bad translation" at me you should know that this is the King James, widely regarded as the most perfect translation ever done. Many Christians regard it as the authoritative word of God straight from God's mouth.

So God brings something as evil as Coronavirus on us and people are praising Him for it. Sort of like when someone kicks you, you say, "I like that. Do it again."

I just don't get the logic--or illogic of it, that's a better word.
““So listen to me, you men of understanding. Far be it from God to do evil, from the Almighty to do wrong. He repays everyone for what they have done; he brings on them what their conduct deserves. It is unthinkable that God would do wrong, that the Almighty would pervert justice. Who appointed him over the earth? Who put him in charge of the whole world? If it were his intention and he withdrew his spirit and breath, all humanity would perish together and mankind would return to the dust. “If you have understanding, hear this; listen to what I say. Can someone who hates justice govern? Will you condemn the just and mighty One? Is he not the One who says to kings, ‘You are worthless,’ and to nobles, ‘You are wicked,’ who shows no partiality to princes and does not favor the rich over the poor, for they are all the work of his hands?”
‭‭Job‬ ‭34:10-19‬ ‭NIV‬‬
 

SeekingAllTruth

Well-Known Member
““So listen to me, you men of understanding. Far be it from God to do evil, from the Almighty to do wrong. He repays everyone for what they have done; he brings on them what their conduct deserves. It is unthinkable that God would do wrong, that the Almighty would pervert justice. Who appointed him over the earth? Who put him in charge of the whole world? If it were his intention and he withdrew his spirit and breath, all humanity would perish together and mankind would return to the dust. “If you have understanding, hear this; listen to what I say. Can someone who hates justice govern? Will you condemn the just and mighty One? Is he not the One who says to kings, ‘You are worthless,’ and to nobles, ‘You are wicked,’ who shows no partiality to princes and does not favor the rich over the poor, for they are all the work of his hands?”
‭‭Job‬ ‭34:10-19‬ ‭NIV‬‬

I, the Lord thy God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate Me... Deuteronomy5:9

So much for God being a God of justice.
 

SeekingAllTruth

Well-Known Member
Luckily in my case it was not so bad. I had 5 days about 37,5 degrees Celsius fever and a little cough. If it would not be this Corona age, I probably would not have gone to doctor at all, but because other wanted to know do I have it, I went into the test.

Nice thing is that now I know something about it personally and also by that I know 5 other who have had it also, at least if the tests were correct.
Glad to hear. Lots of long haulers are suffering more 5 months later than they were when they had it.
 
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