SeekingAllTruth
Well-Known Member
God is a big boy. He can take whatever insults I throw his way.
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Why Praise God When He's The One Who Brought Coronavirus To Us?
- Thread starter SeekingAllTruth
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ElishaElijah
Return
Of course He can, just fear for the consequences you’re bringing on yourself. Glad you can see they are insults too because that says a lot. Although God is not moved by pity, insults or your pride but trust/faith in Him and the salvation He offers in Christ Jesus.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
In my mind I know you are right because that is what my religion teaches....
How could a God who created the heavens and the earth do wrong and why would God pervert justice? That is not even logical since God needs nothing for Himself. Since God has no needs that means that everything we get from God is only by the grace and bounty of God.
In my rational mind I know that God does not need us for anything, but we need God for our very existence.
“Regard thou the one true God as One Who is apart from, and immeasurably exalted above, all created things. The whole universe reflecteth His glory, while He is Himself independent of, and transcendeth His creatures.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 166
“Your Lord, the God of mercy, can well dispense with all creatures. Nothing whatever can either increase or diminish the things He doth possess.” Gleanings, p. 148
“Consider the mercy of God and His gifts. He enjoineth upon you that which shall profit you, though He Himself can well dispense with all creatures.” Gleanings, p. 140
“The one true God, exalted be His glory, hath wished nothing for Himself. The allegiance of mankind profiteth Him not, neither doth its perversity harm Him. The Bird of the Realm of Utterance voiceth continually this call: “All things have I willed for thee, and thee, too, for thine own sake.” Gleanings, p. 260
However, my emotions are not always on board with my thoughts, because I see all the suffering in the world including my own and I wonder why a loving God would create a world like this, knowing how much suffering would ensue. I know the religious apologetic about how suffering is supposed to be beneficial for our spiritual growth and how there will be no more suffering in the afterlife, but even if it is true suffering is still suffering.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
The salient problem is that God did not write that. Men wrote that, and those men were not even Prophets!
It sickens me that people actually believe the bunk in the Bible which misrepresents the one true God.
God is a God of justice and I know that because Baha'u'llah wrote that. I know that Baha'u'llah was a Messenger of God who received a Revelation from God not on a whim but because of all the evidence. Moreover, Baha'u'llah wrote everything down in His Own Pen and we have His original tablets, so there is no question of authorship, as there is with the Bible. I have the Writings of Baha'u'lalh so I have no need to refer to old books that misrepresent and anthropmorphize God. When I stop to think about what I have, I have to thank God, even when i am mad at Him.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Ubetcha! If God can put up with all the hate and anger I have thrown His way over the years, He can put up with anything...
Anything I have heard you say is child's play compared to what I have said, just ask my husband who bears the brunt of it.
He only listens to me because he has to.
As to your conversation with @ElishaElijah, the principle involved is directly contradicted in Ezekiel 18 ─ the whole chapter, but not least ─
20 The soul that sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son; the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.
But this is later than the earlier Bronze Age morality you refer to. I don't know how Jewish people approach these questions ─ in a variety of ways, I'd guess ─ but it's notable how right-wing Christians are attracted to the Bronze Age version.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Can you summarize what you think is contradicted and why it is contradicted in a nutshell?
The Bible is not my book so I cannot understand it very well, if at all!
Thanks in advance.
ElishaElijah
Return
One of the problems is people only use partial verses and miss the meaning of what God said.
““You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments.”
Deuteronomy 5:8-10
Treasure Hunter
Well-Known Member
There are two truths in tension:
1) God does not like to be judged negatively
2) God values truth above all and wants humanity to do the same
In my experience, God wants (2) to prevail over (1). If God is responsible for creation, then he is to be judged by humanity based on how humanity experiences life. However, just because we do (2) like God wants us to, which results in negative judgment toward God, that doesn’t mean that (1) stops being true.
In other words, there is a price to be paid for enacting (2). The price is that as soon as I judge God negatively, then he simultaneously judges me negatively. Rather than endure that cost for truth, most people compromise by either deciding that God doesn’t exist, ignoring God (practically similar), or by judging God in an incomplete or distorted way.
1) God does not like to be judged negatively
2) God values truth above all and wants humanity to do the same
In my experience, God wants (2) to prevail over (1). If God is responsible for creation, then he is to be judged by humanity based on how humanity experiences life. However, just because we do (2) like God wants us to, which results in negative judgment toward God, that doesn’t mean that (1) stops being true.
In other words, there is a price to be paid for enacting (2). The price is that as soon as I judge God negatively, then he simultaneously judges me negatively. Rather than endure that cost for truth, most people compromise by either deciding that God doesn’t exist, ignoring God (practically similar), or by judging God in an incomplete or distorted way.
The original proposition is that God will not only punish those who've offended [him] but also all members of the next three generations of each family.Can you summarize what you think is contradicted and why it is contradicted in a nutshell?
The Bible is not my book so I cannot understand it very well, if at all!
Thanks in advance.
That is, the offspring are to be punished for the offense of their ancestor.
And Ezekiel 18 says, No, the offense stops with the offender, the son is not liable for the father's offense, the father is not liable for the son's offense.
(From a Christian perspective, Ezekiel thereby puts the kybosh on the notion of "original sin" as well, not that Christians care to hear this.)
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
What you are still missing is that God's perfect foresight is not what causes people to do what they do. Trump was elected because of people’s free will decisions to elect Trump.
You are right, if God didn't want Trump elected, [he] could either not have created Trump, or made him sane, or simply let Hilary win. God could have done all that because God is omnipotent, but it was not God’s perfectly foreseen design that got Trump elected, it was the number of people who voted for Trump. God knew it would happen because God is All-Knowing, but God did not cause it to happen, the American people did.
But God’s knowledge of what would happen is not what caused anything to happen.
Everything will go according to what God foresaw, but that is because humans will fulfill God’s Plan. God wrote the script for the play but God is not one of the actors in the play. Humans are the actors who will act out God’s script. Why is this so difficult for you to understand?
That’s right, because God perfectly foresaw who would follow His teachings and laws.
That’s right, they can only choose what God has always known they'd choose, but God’s knowledge of what they will choose is NOT what causes them to choose it. They choose what God knows they will choose by exercising their own free will to choose.
Society holds us responsible because we are responsible. God never goes on trial because God has nothing to do with our free will choices and ensuing actions.
God's perfect foresight and intention does not cause us to do anything. This is logic 101 stuff. Having knowledge of what will happen in the future is not what caused that future event to happen.
“Every act ye meditate is as clear to Him as is that act when already accomplished. There is none other God besides Him. His is all creation and its empire. All stands revealed before Him; all is recorded in His holy and hidden Tablets. This fore-knowledge of God, however, should not be regarded as having caused the actions of men, just as your own previous knowledge that a certain event is to occur, or your desire that it should happen, is not and can never be the reason for its occurrence.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 150
No, God did not intend that you should reject [him] and [his] values totally. God knew you would, but God did not intend for you to, as God gave you a choice. You chose to reject Him just as I chose to reject Him for a long time, but then I made a choice to turn the ship around. Of course God always knew I would make that choice, but it was me who made that choice. If it is part of the script I could turn the ship back around and reject God again. God knows if I will but I don’t know if I will because I am not All-Knowing, so I cannot see into the future.
God has no moral obligations because God is not a human. It is only humans who have moral obligations to help other humans in crises. That does happen and that is what God wants to happen because it helps build their character. And since our character is the only thing that goes with us when we die and go to the spiritual world, that is pretty darned important.
Moreover, God did not make the mess so God is not responsible to clean up the mess in the kitchen that humans make. Playing the omnipotent card is so childish. What you are saying is that God can so it so God should do it. God should do what humans are responsible for so humans won’t have to do it. If God actually did what you want Him to do humans would cease to be responsible for their own behavior. Instead of acting like adults they would be acting like little children waiting for big daddy to do everything for them. If you ever raised children you would know that this is not in their best interest. It is hard for me to believe you are saying this given all the humanitarian work you and your wife have done over the years.
How do you envision God would help if He did? God is Spirit so God cannot come down to earth and roll up His sleeves and pitch in. The way God assists is by helping people who choose (by their own free will) to help others.
Related to this, I used to believe that Christians were goofy when they said that God guides them by the Holy Spirit, but since then I have experienced this guidance so I know it is real. I mean I know that when I am in a dire situation and I cannot make a decision people mysteriously appear and they help me. Maybe that is part of the script of the play they are acting out on God’s behalf. God knew I would need those characters so God wrote them into the script.
What you're still missing is that people are only and exactly doing what God perfectly knew they'd do 14 bn years ago ─ and that there is no possibility that they can do anything else.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
I am not missing that. I already told you umpteen million times that we have to do what God knows we will do because God knows what we will do.
But so what? We still have to makes choices and act upon what God knows we will do.
And since we have no way of knowing what God knows we will do what God knows in no way affects our choices.
SeekingAllTruth
Well-Known Member
Well, they use the Bronze Age version when it suits their purpose, but revert to the Age of Prophets one when they want to demonstrate how just God is. How they are able to reconcile these two different gods in their minds I have no idea, but they certainly don't have any trouble. I guess weak pliable minds are putty in the hands of a skillful minister. "I change not" indeed.
SeekingAllTruth
Well-Known Member
So should a 3rd generation child who loves God be punished for the grandfather's sin of idol worship?
ElishaElijah
Return
Read it again, is it really that hard to understand ? If you hate God you curse your offspring to the fourth generation. That’s the legacy you leave your family. How about loving God and walking in His ways instead
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
But don't you think that there is a third category of people who value truth above all and do not judge God in an incomplete or distorted way, but rather judge God as God wants to be judged? In that case what price would there be to pay?
SeekingAllTruth
Well-Known Member
it says he's going to punish children to the 4th generation for sins of the original father. Then it says he shows mercy to those who love him. I see a contradiction. I think you'll say the grandchild loving Yahweh gets the curse cancelled. Is that how you interpret it? At best i think it's badly written if that's what you're going to say.
ElishaElijah
Return
God is so great, He has done more than I could ever think or imagine. You’re missing it.
Acourse it duz! You can only and always do exactly what God knew you were going to do. Any claim of free will is torn apart by the datum that you can't do anything, no matter how tiny or insignificant, that God didn't already know you'd do before [he] made the universe. [He] shaped the universe knowing all those things. Nothing happens unless [he] intends it. What the individual human intends is wholly irrelevant ─ he or she can only roll down his or her single one-way groove. No sign of a power of individual choice anywhere.
Or else, of course, God isn't omni, and we're back in the physics department.