Why so many people revert to Islam ?!

[Autodidact]

Here's my point. If I put on a t-shirt that identifies me as an atheist, and walk down a street in most Muslim-dominated places, I would not be safe.

That's horrible, and explains why you don't meet a lot of public ex-Muslims. The ones you hear of are very brave, and live with 24-hour security.

 

[LuisDantas]

Other than the millions of Muslims, the several countries, and many Muslim scholars who say the opposite, that is.

I'm not necessarily doubting what you say.

However, no ideology or religion is quite immune to destructive interpretations and the occasional all-out nutcase. There is over a billion Muslims worldwide IIRC, so it shouldn't come as any great surprise that millions of them have less than perfect wisdom on a doctrine matter that they are not entitled to execute of their own accord to begin with.

When the tire meets the tarmac, it is very difficult indeed to meet a Muslim (scholar or otherwise) who actually wants to kill apostates. Isn't it better to focus on actual problems as opposed to those that are essentially academic?

 

[Autodidact]

But unless it's ALL of them, your statement still becomes false.

Numbers mean nothing in this case. Just because something is believed by most doesn't make it correct.

None of it's correct--there is no God. The point is, Muslims are indoctrinated as small children, and are not free to leave that indoctrination. At best, they would be shunned, at worst, killed.

And that, combined with high fertility, is why the number of Muslims in the world is increasing.

 

[Riverwolf]

Here's my point. If I put on a t-shirt that identifies me as an atheist, and walk down a street in most Muslim-dominated places, I would not be safe.

That's horrible

I know. I'm not denying that reality. (Except I don't really know if that applies to "most" Muslim-dominated areas.)

I'm denying your interpretation of that reality.

 

[Riverwolf]

The point is, Muslims are indoctrinated as small children, and are not free to leave that indoctrination. At best, they would be shunned, at worst, killed.

Just saying it again and again without actually addressing the counter arguments won't make it any more correct.

 

[Autodidact]

Just saying it again and again without actually addressing the counter arguments won't make it any more correct.

What counter argument? Do you disagree with anything I said?

 

[YmirGF]

Auto, I don't think you are understanding quite what the point of Riverwolf and Bismillah is.

It doesn't fall upon us non-Muslims to say what is Islamic and what is not.

Which would be why Autodidact is quoting Muslim sources. It isn't her opinion.
This is a good example of when Muslims prefer to ignore the 800 pound gorilla in the room by pretending that it is not there.

Maybe some sort of interpretation of the Quran says that apostasy is punishable by death. Maybe such interpretation is in some sense the most proper or literal.

So... are you saying that punishing the apostate may be the proper interpretation? *Giggles*

It doesn't really matter, if at the end of the day Muslims essentially choose all to exercise common sense and basic consideration over such interpretations.

Sadly, it doesn't really matter what individual Muslims think or say. It's all about what the most powerful group says. If they are the ones in power, look out.

We shouldn't complain when Muslims decide to be reasonable.

Do let me know when that happens. Strangely, I don't often see Muslims being reasonable except after performing prodigious mental gymnastics.

 

[YmirGF]

Just saying it again and again without actually addressing the counter arguments won't make it any more correct.

When you come up with a cogent argument, I'll let you know.

 

[Bismillah]

Let me ask you Bismillah. If your child grew up and left Islam, how would you respond?

Given that I was as good as a non-Muslim several years ago with love and compassion but straightforward disapproval of their choice.

Here's my point. If I put on a t-shirt that identifies me as an atheist, and walk down a street in most Muslim-dominated places, I would not be safe.

Way to shift the goal posts right?

In Islam, apostasy is punishable by death.

Oh, I'm sure there are Muslims whose human decency overcomes their religious training. To the extent it does, they are not Islamic.[/quote]

So let me ask once again, why are you trolling.

Muslims are indoctrinated as small children

I was and am not.

This is a good example of when Muslims prefer to ignore the 800 pound gorilla in the room by pretending that it is not there.

No one is ignoring the various viewpoints of Islam except Auto here champ.

Then again you do as well considering the most influential modern scholars have rejected these claims.

Sadly, it doesn't really matter what individual Muslims think or say. It's all about what the most powerful group says. If they are the ones in power, look out.

I've linked some powerful guys but hey the guys that agree with you tend to be the ones in hold of political power. Clearly if you had any knowledge of Islamic history you would understand just who the powerful scholars are and who the powerful politicians are.

What fools people tend to make of themselves.

 

[Riverwolf]

What counter argument? Do you disagree with anything I said?

I disagree with your absolute.

You said that Muslims threaten to kill their children if they change their beliefs. The lack of the adjective of "most" indicates that you intended your statement to apply to ALL Muslims, which I say cannot be the case.

Then, you made the implication that anyone who does not do this is going against some kind of "religious training" (as if such "training" is mandatory, yet I've never heard of such a thing being necessary in Islam) are not really Muslims.

In response, I said that it's the other way around, citing the Qur'an, which states that Islam is nothing more than submission to God, and that a Muslim is one who submits to God. Through the words used, it also states that Islam is not a club, nor is it to be treated like one. Some verses have also been provided stating that the Qur'an teaches letting people believe what they will, indicating that those who follow it are to do nothing about those who choose to stop following it.

That's the train of the debate.

 

[LuisDantas]

Which would be why Autodidact is quoting Muslim sources. It isn't her opinion.
This is a good example of when Muslims prefer to ignore the 800 pound gorilla in the room by pretending that it is not there.

So... are you saying that punishing the apostate may be the proper interpretation? *Giggles*

No. I am saying that it matters little if there is some set of criteria by which it might be considered proper, until and unless someone actually chooses to adopt such criteria.

Sadly, it doesn't really matter what individual Muslims think or say. It's all about what the most powerful group says. If they are the ones in power, look out.

Changes happen, and they begin with individuals, Ymir.

Also, if there are those with nasty interpretations around, that is one more reason not to stimy and discourage those who are more sensible, don't you agree?

Do let me know when that happens. Strangely, I don't often see Muslims being reasonable except after performing prodigious mental gymnastics.

How many have you met that are unreasonable to the point of defending death of apostates?

 

[Oneatatime]

All over the the World millions of people convert to Islam.Why ?

As I understand it Islam dominates the lives of its adherents. Some people find such a thing comforting

 

[YmirGF]

No one is ignoring the various viewpoints of Islam except Auto here champ.

Then again you do as well considering the most influential modern scholars have rejected these claims.

I've linked some powerful guys but hey the guys that agree with you tend to be the ones in hold of political power. Clearly if you had any knowledge of Islamic history you would understand just who the powerful scholars are and who the powerful politicians are.

What fools people tend to make of themselves.

Yusuf Al-Qardawi seems to have a rather interesting view. As far as I am aware, he is a fairly influential Muslim scholar. But then, that is the beauty of Islamic jurisprudence. Don't like one opinion, cite another. I found Qardwari's thinking to be relatively flawless on this topic. Mileage for others may vary, of course. (Source)

 

[Riverwolf]

But then, that is the beauty of Islamic jurisprudence. Don't like one opinion, cite another.

Oh, please. I've seen more non-Muslims do that than Muslims. Heck, I'm guilty of doing that in the past, and I was never a Muslim.

 

[YmirGF]

Oh, please. I've seen more non-Muslims do that than Muslims. Heck, I'm guilty of doing that in the past, and I was never a Muslim.

Are you implying that Yusuf Al-Qardawi's opinions do not carry considerate weight? Seriously? Again, based on what I know about Islam, I found Al-Qardawi's thinking to be error free. I can't say the same about those I have read that opine contrary to his majestic thinking.

 

[xkatz]

All over the the World millions of people convert to Islam.Why ?

Because as living beings, people have freewill...

 

[Riverwolf]

Are you implying that Yusuf Al-Qardawi's opinions do not carry considerate weight?

I'm not implying ANYTHING about his opinions, as I didn't take a look at them, and thus don't know what they are. I was targeting your comment, and ONLY your comment.

 

[Autodidact]

No. I am saying that it matters little if there is some set of criteria by which it might be considered proper, until and unless someone actually chooses to adopt such criteria.




Changes happen, and they begin with individuals, Ymir.

Also, if there are those with nasty interpretations around, that is one more reason not to stimy and discourage those who are more sensible, don't you agree?




How many have you met that are unreasonable to the point of defending death of apostates?

A few right here at RF.

 

[Riverwolf]

A few right here at RF.

How many here on RF who support it vs. how many here on RF who don't? (Because, yes, I have met at least one, as well. Let it be known that I'm not denying that there is a problem.)

 

[Bismillah]

Yusuf Al-Qardawi seems to have a rather interesting view. As far as I am aware, he is a fairly influential Muslim scholar. But then, that is the beauty of Islamic jurisprudence. Don't like one opinion, cite another. I found Qardwari's thinking to be relatively flawless on this topic. Mileage for others may vary, of course. (Source)

Are you saying that Al-Qardawi is more influential than Maududi :biglaugh:

And do you even read what you post? He states that apostasy in itself is not merit for death, but only if an apostate causes fitnah and that the punishment is not necessarily death but can be instead replaced by a lesser one and that the apostate has a chance to repent.

that is the beauty of Islamic jurisprudence. Don't like one opinion, cite another.

That is human nature for you, but don't let that fact interfere. Given that there is no Islamic government that is exactly what is expected and resolving the disputed claims is a clear cut process given that such an action is necessary.

I found Qardwari's thinking to be relatively flawless on this topic. Mileage for others may vary, of course.

Given your lack of comprehension of your own link I am troubled that you think your own understanding is worth anything but amusement.

Of course you think Islam dictates death to apostates

I guess no one will ever answer my question to why the trolling?