Why so many people revert to Islam ?!

[KnightOwl]

Are you saying that Al-Qardawi is more influential than Maududi :biglaugh:

And do you even read what you post? He states that apostasy in itself is not merit for death, but only if an apostate causes fitnah and that the punishment is not necessarily death but can be instead replaced by a lesser one and that the apostate has a chance to repent.

I had to look up fitnah or fitna as Wikipedia spells it. What they say in part is that it means basically "disagreement and division within Islam." So you're saying one should be punished for causing disagreement and division? I am so glad the United States has the first amendment and that the courts usually protect it fairly well allowing freedom of expression. I'm glad that even extreme nutjobs like Fred Phelps are given that freedom because I'll be damned if some cleric is going to tell me what I can and cannot say. That's plenty of reason right there for me to view Islam as dangerous. I don't care if the punishment is a $50 fine.

 

[Bismillah]

I had to look up fitnah or fitna as Wikipedia spells it. What they say in part is that it means basically "disagreement and division within Islam." So you're saying one should be punished for causing disagreement and division? I am so glad the United States has the first amendment and that the courts usually protect it fairly well allowing freedom of expression. I'm glad that even extreme nutjobs like Fred Phelps are given that freedom because I'll be damned if some cleric is going to tell me what I can and cannot say. That's plenty of reason right there for me to view Islam as dangerous. I don't care if the punishment is a $50 fine.

First of all the view in question is not mine, but Al-Qaradawi.

Secondly Fitnah is the spreading of chaos and mischief making. In this context attacks that destabilize the state.

Third given that fiqh doesn't apply to you I would say you need to stop with the sensationalist crap if you want to be taken seriously.

Given the context of the Hadith apostates spreading fitnah were colluders with the Meccans and a direct threat to the state. A lack of repentance and acts taken against the state are treason. Failure to flee after such events warrants punishment and death if judged so.

 

[Pegg]

i agree that it could be the stability that islam offers that may be attractive to people. Having clearly defined standards and morals is a good thing...christianity moves the goal posts to suit societies dwindling standards which is not a good thing nor can it instill the idea that God is at the helm.

 

[KnightOwl]

First of all the view in question is not mine, but Al-Qaradawi.

Secondly Fitnah is the spreading of chaos and mischief making. In this context attacks that destabilize the state.

Third given that fiqh doesn't apply to you I would say you need to stop with the sensationalist crap if you want to be taken seriously.

Given the context of the Hadith apostates spreading fitnah were colluders with the Meccans and a direct threat to the state. A lack of repentance and acts taken against the state are treason. Failure to flee after such events warrants punishment and death if judged so.

The viewpoint seems to be one you're supporting though. It is my opinion that any state that can be brought down by the mere speech of those who oppose it is probably one that doesn't deserve to exist anyway.

From the other side of that coin, If one's speech is strong enough to bring down the state, then it shows signs of being more worthy than the state it would replace.

Even in the U.S. I feel we have way too prohibitive laws involving people trying to "overthrow the government." I understand if you're assembling an army but mere speech is another thing altogether. Maybe the people you're talking about did more than express themselves and if that's the case, then perhaps my comments don't apply to that case.

Whether it applies to me or not, I love expressing my opinion because I'm an egotistical individual and I'm allowed to because I don't live under Sharia law. So if you think I'm being sensational, it doesn't really matter. I'm not some cowed individual who has been trained to tow the line by countless hours of rote recitation of the Qu'ran. So don't bother telling me to shut up.

Failure to flee is worthy of punishment up to and including death? WTF?

 

[Gaura Priya]

I believe in the Qur'an and that it is a Divine Book, but the Shari'ah Law and Ahadith are all bid'a to me, or innovation... they just don't hold the spirit of Islam to me.

 

[Bismillah]

The viewpoint seems to be one you're supporting though.

On what claim?

It is my opinion that any state that can be brought down by the mere speech of those who oppose it is probably one that doesn't deserve to exist anyway. From the other side of that coin, If one's speech is strong enough to bring down the state, then it shows signs of being more worthy than the state it would replace.

Given that apostasy has been accompanied by crimes against the state, which include internal collusion with enemies of the state, fitnah in the modern context would be the same as revealing state secrets.

Would you standby dismantling the U.S on the basis of its imprisonment of Private Manning?

Whether it applies to me or not, I love expressing my opinion because I'm an egotistical individual and I'm allowed to because I don't live under Sharia law. So if you think I'm being sensational, it doesn't really matter. I'm not some cowed individual who has been trained to tow the line by countless hours of rote recitation of the Qu'ran. So don't bother telling me to shut up.

What an irrelevant and frankly boring tangent that only serves to show your irrational fears of a system of law that does not apply to you or even me in the modern world.

Failure to flee is worthy of punishment up to and including death? WTF?

I'm sorry to say you are ignorant of the modern day punishment for treason.

 

[Bismillah]

but the Shari'ah Law and Ahadith are all bid'a to me, or innovation... they just don't hold the spirit of Islam to me.

Except that Shariah is explicitly mentioned in the Qur'an?

 

[Gaura Priya]

Except that Shariah is explicitly mentioned in the Qur'an?

I simply don't believe in how it is interpeted today. I can agree though that Islam has been brought down in order for people to evolve from a tribal society to that of a nation (ummah), and that nationhood was a gift of Islam towards all humanity.

 

[KnightOwl]

On what claim?

based on your 4th paragraph

Given that apostasy has been accompanied by crimes against the state, which include internal collusion with enemies of the state, fitnah in the modern context would be the same as revealing state secrets.

Then why bring apostasy into it? Why is one's personal belief an issue?

Would you standby dismantling the U.S on the basis of its imprisonment of Private Manning?

If Private Manning were being prosecuted for leaving the Christian or any other faith, I would help dismantle the U.S. government.

What an irrelevant and frankly boring tangent that only serves to show your irrational fears of a system of law that does not apply to you or even me in the modern world.

So you never make commentaries about cultures outside your own? Talk about boring.

I'm sorry to say you are ignorant of the modern day punishment for treason.

I wasn't commenting on punishment for treason. I was commenting on punishment for not fleeing.

 

[Bismillah]

based on your 4th paragraph

Could you please quote the source, I am not sure what exactly you are referencing.

Then why bring apostasy into it? Why is one's personal belief an issue?

I am stating it is not. Al-Qaradawi is also stating it is not unless accompanied with other transgressions and if those transgressions exist, a case by case punishment, and prior to the punishment a chance for repentance.

If Private Manning were being prosecuted for leaving the Christian or any other faith, I would help dismantle the U.S. government.

Alas you are arguing a position I am not taking. I am talking about his actions against the state.

So you never make commentaries about cultures outside your own? Talk about boring.

So what exactly are you making a commentary on, freedom of speech?

I wasn't commenting on punishment for treason. I was commenting on punishment for not fleeing.

Failure to flee after committing acts of treason is the subject of discussion.

 

[KnightOwl]

Could you please quote the source, I am not sure what exactly you are referencing.

Given the context of the Hadith apostates spreading fitnah were colluders with the Meccans and a direct threat to the state. A lack of repentance and acts taken against the state are treason. Failure to flee after such events warrants punishment and death if judged so.

I am stating it is not. Al-Qaradawi is also stating it is not unless accompanied with other transgressions and if those transgressions exist, a case by case punishment, and prior to the punishment a chance for repentance.

Where does Al get off demanding people repent for what they, in their hearts, believe regarding religion?

Alas you are arguing a position I am not taking. I am talking about his actions against the state.

Please excuse if I took your defending of Al as you siding with his viewpoints. Hopefully you can see how it was easy for me to make that assumption even if not true.

So what exactly are you making a commentary on, freedom of speech?

BINGO!!

Failure to flee after committing acts of treason is the subject of discussion.

Maybe I took something out of context? Seemed to me that they were being punished for not fleeing -- were you saying they were being punished for their other "crimes" because they didn't have the good sense to flee?

 

[Bismillah]

Given the context of the Hadith apostates spreading fitnah were colluders with the Meccans and a direct threat to the state. A lack of repentance and acts taken against the state are treason. Failure to flee after such events warrants punishment and death if judged so.

That is one reason why apostates were killed in the context of the hadith and one aimed at Al-al Qaradawi, I posted a longer post in response earlier.

Where does Al get off demanding people repent for what they, in their hearts, believe regarding religion?

Repentance not for apostasy but for actions taken against the state after the fact. This is based of the treason of apostates in the past who took direct actions against the state.

Please excuse if I took your defending of Al as you siding with his viewpoints. Hopefully you can see how it was easy for me to make that assumption even if not true.

No problem.

Here is my position.


In regards to the Hadith. If one comes upon a Hadith that they feel goes against the Qur'an there are three choices.

1. Accept the saying ascribed to the Prophet (pbuh), in its absolute connotation, and ignore the statement of the Qur'an;
2. Accept the statement of the Qur'an and reject the narrative ascribed to the Prophet (pbuh) as falsely ascribed to the Prophet (pbuh)[3].
3. Try to interpret and explain the narrative ascribed to the Prophet (pbuh), in the light of the directives of the Qur'an, in such a way that the said narrative does not alter any of the directives of the Qur'an. This would imply that in such cases where a narrative cannot be explained or interpreted in coherence with the Qur'an, the narrative would not be accepted as one correctly ascribed to the Prophet (pbuh).

Discussion on the Punishment for Apostasy -Islamic Beliefs - Understanding Islam

I go by the third.

In regards to the people in question, perhaps you would do good to look at those who are being referred in the sayings. Here is a good argument, tell me what you find wrong with it.

The Punishment for Apostasy -Penal Law - Understanding Islam

Here is a very influential scholar whose translation I have read and liked and why the two premises cannot be accepted by basic Islamic definition.

• This idea is against the freedom of conscience. How can it be right to offer an apostate the gallows when he has decided to leave Islam?
• A faith which people maintain because of the fear of death cannot be genuine faith. This faith will be manifestly hypocritically chosen to deceive in order to save one's life. (Religious hypocrisy is the ultimate sin in Islam)
• If all religions approve of execution for apostasy, it will be difficult not only for Muslims to embrace another religion but also for non-Muslims to embrace Islam.
• It is contradictory to say on one hand "There is no compulsion in religion (Qur'an [Qur'an 2:256])" and "Whosoever will, let him believe and whosoever will, let him disbelieve ([Qur'an 18:29])", and on the other to threaten to punish by death who renounces Islam and moves to reject Islam.

Regardless I wonder if you remember what I said prior? The Qur'an is the primary source for fiqh not the only one.

Maybe I took something out of context? Seemed to me that they were being punished for not fleeing -- were you saying they were being punished for their other "crimes" because they didn't have the good sense to flee?

The punishment is not for fleeing it is for treason. After committing their act of treason there is a chance to flee, however if captured the state has the right to try them for their crimes.

 

[KnightOwl]

Bismillah, According to Wikipedia,

The medieval Sunni schools of Islamic jurisprudence were unanimous in holding that apostasy by a male Muslim is punishable by death, differing only on whether to execute the apostate immediately or grant the apostate an opportunity to repent and thus avoid penalty. They also differed on the punishment of a female apostate: death or imprisonment until repentance[2], these judgements are still adopted by the traditional Islamic Scholars today.

Is this incorrect? If I am understanding you correctly, this is a correct interpretation of the state of affairs but that you disagree with this traditional understanding.

 

[Bismillah]

It is correct but it is not me, but the consensus of today's scholars against this opinion.

 

[KnightOwl]

It is correct but it is not me, but the consensus of today's scholars against this opinion.

Despite these scholarly opinions, are apostates put to death in the name of Islam?

 

[Bismillah]

Despite these scholarly opinions, are apostates put to death in the name of Islam?

Yes they are.

 

[KnightOwl]

Yes they are.

Does this lead you to question integration of church and state? It should.

 

[Bismillah]

Does this lead you to question integration of church and state? It should.

Why should it given that Shariah is defunct in the modern world?

 

[KnightOwl]

Why should it given that Shariah is defunct in the modern world?

How does this jive with your previous statements... Or if you're saying they are put to death in the name of Islam, but NOT under the guise of Sharia law, then are those who execute such atrocities brought to trial for murder?

 

[Bismillah]

How does this jive with your previous statements... Or if you're saying they are put to death in the name of Islam, but NOT under the guise of Sharia law, then are those who execute such atrocities brought to trial for murder?

I am saying that by the most basic definition of Shariah the cases where hudud is enforced is impermissible or illegal (KSA Iran).