why some of arabs hate USA?

[.lava]

Yeh you're right.

We shouldn't be there, we should never have gone there. We should have listened to ourselves and not let our government send people both civilians and our soldiers to the grave to prove to the USA that we're their little terrior at their side.

IMO it is not right to say 'WE'. it becomes difficult to distingish between desicion makers, army and ordinary public who mind their own business.





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[TashaN]

On the other hand, Tashan, would you agree that in many ways Al Qaeda and the sectarian extremists are worse? After all they deliberately bomb unarmed civilians standing in line to vote, on purpose to prevent the democratic process; they carry out ethnic cleansing, bomb the holy Shiite shrine to incite civil war, etc. on purpose. Imagine what they would do with a big military and weapons to match the U.S.

In other words, do you agree there is a difference between an American soldier and a member of a Shiite death squad (for example)? One is trying to establish maintain peace and some democracy, and failing (albeit, to secure business interests, whether he realizes it or not). The other is/was succeeding in their goal killing innocent people and driving out Sunnis from their homes.

I don't know what you mean ... exactly! This hasn't been your way of thinking, in the past. You ask who is worse?

I think you know better than this. You are oversimplifying this issue.

You know well that this war was so wrong, and Iraq was safer with Saddam and stable, but forget about Saddam now.

I know you want to talk about the situation *now* and what to do. You think it's dangerous to let such forces to emerge in the region so the US is trying hard to keep that to the minimum and shoot the bad guys and weakening them. It's extremely dangerous, after all, to leave the country in this critical time, because these forces might take over, and become like Iran?!

That's just wishful thinking, and allow me to elaborate.

You know well that the US is fighting Iraqis there. That country belong to Iraqis, and there is no way that those people will suddenly stop fighting, unless you want to kill all of them and their off-springs. It's impossible to stop a war which is being directed and fed by dogmatic motives through normal means. Although the US is trying so hard to push for progress, but that will not be helpful at all because all what people there will see is a puppet government and a puppet President. The US should leave with any price not to cause further damage, and it should rely on her allies like Egypt and Saudi Arabia because the more US stays, the more Iran influence get stronger there.

It's like breastfeeding, some mothers can't imagine their children stopping drinking their milk, but a time would come when those children would rely on themselves to eat and drink even if it was hard at the beginning to do so.

The US is afraid to regret it after leaving the country, because it doesn't want Iraq to be swallowed by Iran, but a lack of a clear and deep understanding for the region prevent it from seeing the future. What is the point in installing years and years of hatred toward the US for killing Iraqis on a daily basis?

This should be above any pride the US might want to keep, it's about the existence of the US itself which might stumble over a new disaster, and this time it won't strike the economy alone.

The US nation won't last forever, and anyone who read history can figure that out, because nations rise and fall, and the smartest of all is the one which would stay longer on the top, because no body can stay on the top forever. The way the US is handling Bush's mistakes and stupidity is dangerous and might shorten the nation's greatness life span. They should save their power for greater wars "not necessarily military one" instead of getting involved in long boring meaningless unnecessary wars. China is ready, but the US is not, because the US is getting distracted by pathetic wars backed up by pathetic reasons. Nothing will change in Afghanistan and nothing will change in Iraq unless you want to stay there for decades.

I don't have time right now to say all what's in my mind, and i don't know whether whatever i have said so far was clear enough, but i know you will get it.

 

[Gharib]

hey guys anyone miss me?..........nope didn't think so. :sad4:

first of all i would like to appologise to everyone about my posts in this thread. unfortunately i get very heated up when it comes to talking about war, unlike most of you if not all, i know what it's like to have your freedom taken away just because some wimp with a gun says so. so due to that i do personally view pretty much everyone that doesn't agree with me as an enemie. i do however, know that thats wrong. so rather than have my own unjust views when it comes to this, i will change that into what islam says, that way i cannot be unjust and will be able to overcome my own desires, wich most of the time blinds not only me but everyone else.

and i now agree with all those that said hate is a pretty bad thing and we must leave it aside. i know see how dangerous it is. and again i appologise if my posts we offencie to anyone i do get heated up when discussing this topic, but my view on the US and Israel being oppresors and have hate towards them (the governments, not the people) still stands. but just as the prophet used to have mercy upon his enemies so will i, i hope Allah forgives them and guides them.

 

[gnomon]

hey guys anyone miss me?..........nope didn't think so. :sad4:

first of all i would like to appologise to everyone about my posts in this thread. unfortunately i get very heated up when it comes to talking about war, unlike most of you if not all, i know what it's like to have your freedom taken away just because some wimp with a gun says so. so due to that i do personally view pretty much everyone that doesn't agree with me as an enemie. i do however, know that thats wrong. so rather than have my own unjust views when it comes to this, i will change that into what islam says, that way i cannot be unjust and will be able to overcome my own desires, wich most of the time blinds not only me but everyone else.

and i now agree with all those that said hate is a pretty bad thing and we must leave it aside. i know see how dangerous it is. and again i appologise if my posts we offencie to anyone i do get heated up when discussing this topic, but my view on the US and Israel being oppresors and have hate towards them (the governments, not the people) still stands. but just as the prophet used to have mercy upon his enemies so will i, i hope Allah forgives them and guides them.

In other words you're back and learned nothing.

Good to know.

Now, what do you think of the janjaweed and the Sudan?

What do you think of the plight of the Berbers and the Kurds?

 

[Gharib]

In other words you're back and learned nothing.

Good to know.

Now, what do you think of the janjaweed and the Sudan?

What do you think of the plight of the Berbers and the Kurds?

whats this?

 

[gnomon]

whats this?

You mean you don't know?

Don't you know anything about Arab colonialism. It started before the Europeans built boats to take them across the Atlantic and continues to this day.

If arabs hate the U.S.A. for all the oversimplified concepts of realpolitick presented in this thread I wonder what some people think of the Arab and Afro-Arab dominance in the Sudan pushing the once native African people out in massive numbers. What about other instances of Arab colonialism in Africa? What of the Arab treatment of minority cultures such as the Kurds? What of the millions of berbers, or Amazigh, in North Africa who still speak their own language but deal with the suppression of their language and even, in some countries, their names.

Just wondering if people are equal opportunity haters/despisers/whatever or just expressing a very limited point of view on world affairs.

 

[Gharib]

You mean you don't know?

no i don't thats why i asked you.

Don't you know anything about Arab colonialism. It started before the Europeans built boats to take them across the Atlantic and continues to this day.

If arabs hate the U.S.A. for all the oversimplified concepts of realpolitick presented in this thread I wonder what some people think of the Arab and Afro-Arab dominance in the Sudan pushing the once native African people out in massive numbers. What about other instances of Arab colonialism in Africa? What of the Arab treatment of minority cultures such as the Kurds? What of the millions of berbers, or Amazigh, in North Africa who still speak their own language but deal with the suppression of their language and even, in some countries, their names.

Just wondering if people are equal opportunity haters/despisers/whatever or just expressing a very limited point of view on world affairs.

don't know anything about that so i don't want to speak about it. if you think that what the US is doing is OK, then we can discuss that in a new thread.

 

[gnomon]

no i don't thats why i asked you.



don't know anything about that so i don't want to speak about it. if you think that what the US is doing is OK, then we can discuss that in a new thread.

No thanks.

Asking if what the US is doing is OK is too general. Do I agree with the war in Iraq? No. But the war in Iraq is just one thing in this world, one thing in the Middle East and one thing in the Arab world. There's so much going on that painting views solely on the war in Iraq, which not all Iraqi's condemned, is not enough to make such sure and sweeping judgments on any group.

The reason I specifically brought those examples up in this thread is I wondered what arabs on this forum thought of concrete examples of what many view as Arab oppression over other groups. In some instances with death tolls and refugee totals dwarfing that of the war in Iraq.

Sometimes I just like to know if people are limiting their condemnations based on ethnocentrism or actually applying their intellect.

Now I know. Good day.

 

[Gharib]

No thanks.

Asking if what the US is doing is OK is too general. Do I agree with the war in Iraq? No. But the war in Iraq is just one thing in this world, one thing in the Middle East and one thing in the Arab world. There's so much going on that painting views solely on the war in Iraq, which not all Iraqi's condemned, is not enough to make such sure and sweeping judgments on any group.

The reason I specifically brought those examples up in this thread is I wondered what arabs on this forum thought of concrete examples of what many view as Arab oppression over other groups. In some instances with death tolls and refugee totals dwarfing that of the war in Iraq.

Sometimes I just like to know if people are limiting their condemnations based on ethnocentrism or actually applying their intellect.

Now I know. Good day.

i'm not an arab.

but i cannot speak about those examples coz i don't know whats going on. if my people of the same ethnicity were to do something wrong i would be against them.

 

[gnomon]

i'm not an arab.

but i cannot speak about those examples coz i don't know whats going on. if my people of the same ethnicity were to do something wrong i would be against them.

Then I stand corrected on that point.

 

[.lava]

hey guys anyone miss me?..........nope didn't think so. :sad4:

first of all i would like to appologise to everyone about my posts in this thread. unfortunately i get very heated up when it comes to talking about war, unlike most of you if not all, i know what it's like to have your freedom taken away just because some wimp with a gun says so. so due to that i do personally view pretty much everyone that doesn't agree with me as an enemie. i do however, know that thats wrong. so rather than have my own unjust views when it comes to this, i will change that into what islam says, that way i cannot be unjust and will be able to overcome my own desires, wich most of the time blinds not only me but everyone else.

and i now agree with all those that said hate is a pretty bad thing and we must leave it aside. i know see how dangerous it is. and again i appologise if my posts we offencie to anyone i do get heated up when discussing this topic, but my view on the US and Israel being oppresors and have hate towards them (the governments, not the people) still stands. but just as the prophet used to have mercy upon his enemies so will i, i hope Allah forgives them and guides them.

i believe everyone with emphaty would relate emotional process. no problem





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[kai]

I think in essence what Arabs do is Arab business, there will be no consensus with the US as long as US foreign policy is not geared toward the benefit of Arabs. and of course vice-versa. Not being intentionally antagonistic here but it seems perfectly obvious to me.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

I think you know better than this. You are oversimplifying this issue.

Very true, I was oversimplifying. Now to read the rest of your response ...

 

[kai]

I don't know what you mean ... exactly! This hasn't been your way of thinking, in the past. You ask who is worse?

I think you know better than this. You are oversimplifying this issue.

You know well that this war was so wrong, and Iraq was safer with Saddam and stable, but forget about Saddam now.

I know you want to talk about the situation *now* and what to do. You think it's dangerous to let such forces to emerge in the region so the US is trying hard to keep that to the minimum and shoot the bad guys and weakening them. It's extremely dangerous, after all, to leave the country in this critical time, because these forces might take over, and become like Iran?!

That's just wishful thinking, and allow me to elaborate.

You know well that the US is fighting Iraqis there. That country belong to Iraqis, and there is no way that those people will suddenly stop fighting, unless you want to kill all of them and their off-springs. It's impossible to stop a war which is being directed and fed by dogmatic motives through normal means. Although the US is trying so hard to push for progress, but that will not be helpful at all because all what people there will see is a puppet government and a puppet President. The US should leave with any price not to cause further damage, and it should rely on her allies like Egypt and Saudi Arabia because the more US stays, the more Iran influence get stronger there.

It's like breastfeeding, some mothers can't imagine their children stopping drinking their milk, but a time would come when those children would rely on themselves to eat and drink even if it was hard at the beginning to do so.

The US is afraid to regret it after leaving the country, because it doesn't want Iraq to be swallowed by Iran, but a lack of a clear and deep understanding for the region prevent it from seeing the future. What is the point in installing years and years of hatred toward the US for killing Iraqis on a daily basis?

This should be above any pride the US might want to keep, it's about the existence of the US itself which might stumble over a new disaster, and this time it won't strike the economy alone.

The US nation won't last forever, and anyone who read history can figure that out, because nations rise and fall, and the smartest of all is the one which would stay longer on the top, because no body can stay on the top forever. The way the US is handling Bush's mistakes and stupidity is dangerous and might shorten the nation's greatness life span. They should save their power for greater wars "not necessarily military one" instead of getting involved in long boring meaningless unnecessary wars. China is ready, but the US is not, because the US is getting distracted by pathetic wars backed up by pathetic reasons. Nothing will change in Afghanistan and nothing will change in Iraq unless you want to stay there for decades.

I don't have time right now to say all what's in my mind, and i don't know whether whatever i have said so far was clear enough, but i know you will get it.

I think Arabs should look to themselves rather than invite another giant into their backyard. China will put China first just like everyone else ,and it isnt afraid to flex its muscles. Once the US has waned in its power who knows maybe China will be the next Great Satan.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

I don't know what you mean ... exactly! This hasn't been your way of thinking, in the past. You ask who is worse?

I think you know better than this. You are oversimplifying this issue.

You know well that this war was so wrong, and Iraq was safer with Saddam and stable, but forget about Saddam now.

I know you want to talk about the situation *now* and what to do. You think it's dangerous to let such forces to emerge in the region so the US is trying hard to keep that to the minimum and shoot the bad guys and weakening them. It's extremely dangerous, after all, to leave the country in this critical time, because these forces might take over, and become like Iran?!

That's just wishful thinking, and allow me to elaborate.

You know well that the US is fighting Iraqis there. That country belong to Iraqis, and there is no way that those people will suddenly stop fighting, unless you want to kill all of them and their off-springs. It's impossible to stop a war which is being directed and fed by dogmatic motives through normal means. Although the US is trying so hard to push for progress, but that will not be helpful at all because all what people there will see is a puppet government and a puppet President. The US should leave with any price not to cause further damage, and it should rely on her allies like Egypt and Saudi Arabia because the more US stays, the more Iran influence get stronger there.

It's like breastfeeding, some mothers can't imagine their children stopping drinking their milk, but a time would come when those children would rely on themselves to eat and drink even if it was hard at the beginning to do so.

The US is afraid to regret it after leaving the country, because it doesn't want Iraq to be swallowed by Iran, but a lack of a clear and deep understanding for the region prevent it from seeing the future. What is the point in installing years and years of hatred toward the US for killing Iraqis on a daily basis?

This should be above any pride the US might want to keep, it's about the existence of the US itself which might stumble over a new disaster, and this time it won't strike the economy alone.

The US nation won't last forever, and anyone who read history can figure that out, because nations rise and fall, and the smartest of all is the one which would stay longer on the top, because no body can stay on the top forever. The way the US is handling Bush's mistakes and stupidity is dangerous and might shorten the nation's greatness life span. They should save their power for greater wars "not necessarily military one" instead of getting involved in long boring meaningless unnecessary wars. China is ready, but the US is not, because the US is getting distracted by pathetic wars backed up by pathetic reasons. Nothing will change in Afghanistan and nothing will change in Iraq unless you want to stay there for decades.

I don't have time right now to say all what's in my mind, and i don't know whether whatever i have said so far was clear enough, but i know you will get it.

Great points, Tashan, thank you. It's very interesting to hear your opinion on this. However, I did want to hear your thoughts on Al Qaeda in Iraq and the sectarians (and I don't necessarily mean the resistance against US forces, I mean the sectarians who have massacred Sunnis/Shiites).... I guess I just want to see if you agree with how I feel about them. Let me explain:

It seems so obvious to me that those movements are "bad", and it seems that virtually everyone agrees they are bad, so it is useless to talk about how bad they are. We criticize the Iraqi government and the occupying forces because they COULD do a lot of good, if they use their power properly, and also because we have some power to influence them. In other words, I feel that it is a complete waste of time to criticize Al Qaeda, etc., it goes without saying that we want to defeat them (of course I do not necessarily mean "defeat them" using violence!)

Does that make sense? And do you agree?

Also in response to your post, I should point out that I am not too concerned about the US. The US will be fine no matter what happens to Iraq. If US troops withdraw and Iraq has more bloody civil war or if they turn into another Iran, it won't endanger Americans. It could continue to be very bad for Iraqis, however, as well as other people in the region, so my concern is for them. As the occupying power, it should be the responsibility of the US to help establish peace and order if Iraqis want it, and establish a peaceful process for Iraqis to establish their government and resolve their differences. And if they want us to leave (and 99% of them do want that, correct?) we should leave. But it should be their decision.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

I think Arabs should look to themselves rather than invite another giant into their backyard. China will put China first just like everyone else ,and it isnt afraid to flex its muscles. Once the US has waned in its power who knows maybe China will be the next Great Satan.

Is that comparison really valid though? How many times has China intervened militarily in the past 50 years? How many countries around the world have Chinese military bases? Now compare that to the US. Is there any comparison at all?

 

[Vile Atheist]

why some of arabs hate USA?

Because they hate our freedom - G.W. Bush, Greatest Man On Earth

 

[Gharib]

Because they hate our freedom - G.W. Bush, Greatest Man On Earth

:slap:

 

[kai]

Is that comparison really valid though? How many times has China intervened militarily in the past 50 years? How many countries around the world have Chinese military bases? Now compare that to the US. Is there any comparison at all?

Not yet, Its hard to compare an emerging super power with an existing one. Chinas militay interventions are fewer i admit but they are there, Korea,Vietnam,Tibet,Taiwan straights crisis, and i suggest we Keep an eye on the Indian/Chineses border,but if China was to expand its influence throughout the world it would also defend that influence as it sees fit. and the Chinese armed forces are building up steadily over the last decades.Why should China be any different than any other country that has had Global interests in the past?

 

[.lava]

Not yet, Its hard to compare an emerging super power with an existing one. Chinas militay interventions are fewer i admit but they are there, Korea,Vietnam,Tibet,Taiwan straights crisis, and i suggest we Keep an eye on the Indian/Chineses border,but if China was to expand its influence throughout the world it would also defend that influence as it sees fit. and the Chinese armed forces are building up steadily over the last decades.Why should China be any different than any other country that has had Global interests in the past?

they would not be different once chance given. i've seen news about India and China fighting over Africa which means they are both on the way to abuse other nations.






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