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Why The Hate For Brexit Voters?

Eddi

Christianity, Taoism, and Humanism
Premium Member
But being Argentinian isn't a "state of mind"?
There is more to being of a nation than simply being a citizen of it

I am entitled to a Greek passport, I am a dual national

I could go ahead and claim it if I really really wanted to

But I don't care one bit for Greece or feel at all Greek

I don't even particularly like it :shrug:

I can't even speak the language anymore although when I was a little kid I was bilingual

A nation is primarily a community

That's how we should think about nations

I wish more people would think this way

"Think not what your nation can do for you but what you can do for your nation", or whatever that quote is.........
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
There is more to being of a nation than simply being a citizen of it

I am entitled to a Greek passport, I am a dual national

I could go ahead and claim it if I really really wanted to

But I don't care one bit for Greece or feel at all Greek

I don't even particularly like it :shrug:

I can't even speak the language anymore although when I was a little kid I was bilingual

A nation is primarily a community

That's how we should think about nations

I wish more people would think this way

"Think not what your nation can do for you but what you can do for your nation", or whatever that quote is.........
Argentina is as much a community as the UK is.
 
And considering how close the margins were in both these voting events, I think it is very safe to say that neither would have gone the way they did if it wasn't for those absolutely massive campaigns.

If you focus on the straw that broke the camel's back, then just about any factor can be said to be the one that swung it.

The Remain campaign, and more specifically media presence of those that supported it certainly caused enough people to vote Brexit to have swung it too. Patronising and insulting people with genuine concerns really motivates them to vote against you.

The most common reason given for supporting Brexit was sovereignty, which is as much a moral issue as a political one.

The 2nd was economy, and it is clear that EU membership, even if good on average, was far better for some than others.

The campaign of remainers tried to use reason and walked the classic pathways.

Come on, surely you aren't that naive to think "my side good, other side bad", or that any campaign aims to be based on the honest use of reason to tell the truth?

The Leave campaign wasn't averse to telling a few fibs either.

All campaigns use a mix of reason, emotion, celebrity and other factors. They all look at a big grab bag of stats that have some loose "truthiness" to them and select the ones that tell the best narratives to support their aims. They all give over-optimistic evaluations of what may happen in future.

Most of the public who vote either way are completely incapable of determining which side (if any) is telling the truth, and judge "facts" in line with their subjective experiences.

People don't conduct economic analyses to judge the economy, they mostly just think "do I seem better off than I used to be?"

The GFC and its subsequent period of Austerity, wage stagnation (in part exacerbated by high levels of immigration), etc. matter far more than campaign stats.

"There are lots of immigrants, it's hard to get a house and my wages are low"

"Actually, you stupid racist, you'll find that immigration is good for the economy and benefits us all on average. I love ethnic food too. Business relies on cheap labour for economic growth, and to keep inflation down. The housing shortage is not caused by immigration but..."

"I don't care about on average, how has it benefitted me? Lots of immigrant have council houses, but my son is on a 10 year waiting list. Is that fair?"

"Look fool, the housing crisis can only be solved by long term plan that is best served by being part of the EU and growing our economy so a rising tide lifts all boats."

"That's what you said before and it's worse now than ever..."

People often just see a choice between "change" and "more of the same" and think let's give change a try.

This is compounded when people dismiss their genuine concerns with mockery, condescension, and insults.


The difference is that they didn't use, what I would call, unethical tactics taken straight from psychological warfare playbooks.

...
The campaign of brexit (and trump) preyed on emotion and used psychological profiling with targetted social media processes.

You could say that remainers tried to "convince" people while the brexit campaign was more about "manipulation".
The latter works better in an age where people's eyes are fixated on their smartphone and tablet screens scrolling instagram, facebook, twitter, tiktok,...

Manipulating public opinion has never been easier then today "thanks" to such technology.

Honestly, this is just modern, high stakes Public Relations as practiced by all.

The industry itself is significantly developed out of psychological warfare from the World Wars and beyond.

The idea that "my side" relies on their trusty sword of truth and the "baddies" use modern professional PR techniques is silly.

Online voter targeting was significantly advanced by the Obama Campaign. Media spin and "dark arts" were a hallmark of the Blair government (including by key Remain campaign figure, Peter Mandelson).

The idea that Remain figures drawn from the right, centre and left like Mandelson and David Cameron all met up and said "So, we'll run on truth eh chaps?" is ridiculous.

Also, persuasion v propaganda, convincing v manipulating is not as clear cut a distinction as you seem to think.

If I look through all published stats, none of these are 'fake', but I select only the ones that best support my argument, don't try to select the most accurate, don't try to contextualise them accurately, only weave them into a particular narrative that I have designed to be as influential and emotionally resonant as possible, what is this?

What if I find a stat that I personally think is almost certainly wrong, but is published by a reputable organisation and is great for my argument? Do you expect any major campaign would refuse to use it on ethical grounds?

Some campaigns may indeed use less ethical tactics than others, but they are all manipulating with practices that are very far from an attempt to paint an accurate version of the "truth".
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
I just don't know why there's always a focus on campaigns

Because that's how public opinion is shaped. People aren't convinced by a debate or two.
But they are heavily influenced by the ads they are bombarded with 24/7.

All it seems to come down to for some people is 'THE LEAVE CAMPAIGN WAS HORRIBLE AND SINCE THEY KNEW THEY COULDN'T WIN BY HONESTY THEY LIED!' which is also garbage.

That's not at all what I'm saying.

Here's what the whistle blower of Cambridge Analytica said:

Say you have someone in the Olympics who is caught cheating. Does it matter if the dude won or not? Does it matter if he also would have won if he hadn't cheated?
No. You disqualify / sancion him, period. You don't allow cheaters to cheat. No matter who they are, what place they end up having,...



This is one the guys who developed the models of targetted ads based on psychological profiles, taken straight from psychological warfare playbooks. The model isn't about having a "debate". The model is about manipulating public opinion by pushing psychological buttons based on psychological profiles.
It's also exactly what Russia does / did in the cases where their social-media troll farms were accused of "meddling" in western elections.

It's politicians using psychological warfar tactics on their own citizens. This should not be tolerated. Regardless of the outcome.
It would have been equally scandalous if remain won. And yes, I am 110% certain that these unethical practices is what won them the vote. No doubt about it at all, considering the low margins and the fact that these psychological manipulation tactics have proven to be extremely effective - especially in cyberspace, since it is so easy to bombard people with manipulative messages targetted specifically based on psychological profiles. It's literally "telling that person this here, would push his buttons" where "this here" is off course potentially a straight up lie or misrepresentation of the facts. The truth doesn't matter in these models. What matters, is pushing people's buttons.




I think some folks genuinely don't understand there were actual reasons for leaving the EU.

And there were reasons to remain also.
This is not relevant to the point made.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
Yeah, a lot of money for hours of backbreaking work done in the heat.

Definitely sounds like more than minimum wage work to me.

Also sounds like a classist attitude against blue collar workers.
Also sounds like prices of whatever is being harversted are going to go up at the local market.
 

Altfish

Veteran Member
So you think it's acceptable to pay immigrants below average wages instead of paying locals fair ones?

You're against raising wages for poor people? Instead you bring in foreigners to do the work for less pay.

????
There is a minimum wage in the UK.
If there are not enough people to do the work and foreigners will to do it, why not?
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
If people made more money, they could afford to buy more expensive things. I do not care about someone going out of business for trying to pay, often illegal, slave wages. Their business fails because of their own faulty practices.

Also, wages have been stagnant for decades while the salaries of the CEOs and upper class go through the roof, so don't give me that "the job pays what it's worth" crap. Especially since you're not talking about some poor mom and pop farm. These are big agricultural corporations who are employing all these people.

lol

Pre-school economics logic
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
You raise the wages of the working class and middle class so the majority of people can have more money to buy things.

Sure, sure....
Let's just ask the money-crapping donkey to crap more money.

If I have enough money otherwise, I won't mind paying a little more. It's pretty simple.
Yeah. "simple".
Meanwhile, imported competing goods don't raise in price.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
Electricity costs are far higher than most people can pay, so if you can pay them you're incredibly lucky. Everyone I know is leaving their heating off and freezing in sub-zero homes. If this isn't you you have wealth the majority lack.

Why on earth are you doing this? As if you aren't aware of these things? Prices of houses, food, electricity, everything has skyrocketed all over Europe, it's **** all to do with Brexit.

Errr....

I'm far from rich. In fact, I'm pretty sure I'm a bit below average for middle class.
Sure, energy costs went up these past few years, gas especially. But today it's gone down again to pre-Ukraine war levels.

I don't seem to have this problem you are talking about.
None of my mates, who are financially pretty much around the same level I am, seem to have this problem either.

Young people (in their 20s) are "complaining" that they can't afford to buy a house.
But then I look at their lifestyle....

Every year a new iPhone, laptop and tablet. Every year once or twice on holiday to Greece, Egypt and what-not. A 9-to-5 job and partying all weekends (= easily 50 bucks a night for tickets and drinks). Ow, so you don't have any savings? Well how about that..... how.... expected.

When I was in my 20s, I didn't buy expensive luxury items every year. I didn't waste 100-200 euro's per weekend on drinks and concerts and shows. I didn't go on +3000 euro holidays in the summer. I worked a 9-to-5 during the week and did additional jobs at night and / or on weekends. I stayed at home and saved money.
Then, after 3-4 years of such, I had a starting budget to buy a house.


I call them "lazey self-entitled victims of the luxury society". Instead of wasting your time scrolling tiktok... perhaps get out of your couch and go make some money.


It's like you don't gaf about poor people and believe they're just lazy grunts who won't work for a minimum wage, which you seem to think would support them to rent and grocery shop. It doesn't.
Well, I don't know the situation in Brittain, so I'm not going to talk about it.
I can only speak for the situation here in Belgium. Can't say I can relate to what you are describing.
And the whole thing about "young people can't afford a home" in Belgium... look above.

They can't indeed. But it's not because of the pricing. Relative to earnings, it doesn't seem much different from back in my day. It's the mentality of the people that changed. For some reason they expect that everything should be handed to them on a golden plate.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
If you focus on the straw that broke the camel's back, then just about any factor can be said to be the one that swung it.

The Remain campaign, and more specifically media presence of those that supported it certainly caused enough people to vote Brexit to have swung it too. Patronising and insulting people with genuine concerns really motivates them to vote against you.

The most common reason given for supporting Brexit was sovereignty, which is as much a moral issue as a political one.

The 2nd was economy, and it is clear that EU membership, even if good on average, was far better for some than others.



Come on, surely you aren't that naive to think "my side good, other side bad", or that any campaign aims to be based on the honest use of reason to tell the truth?

The Leave campaign wasn't averse to telling a few fibs either.

All campaigns use a mix of reason, emotion, celebrity and other factors. They all look at a big grab bag of stats that have some loose "truthiness" to them and select the ones that tell the best narratives to support their aims. They all give over-optimistic evaluations of what may happen in future.

Most of the public who vote either way are completely incapable of determining which side (if any) is telling the truth, and judge "facts" in line with their subjective experiences.

People don't conduct economic analyses to judge the economy, they mostly just think "do I seem better off than I used to be?"

The GFC and its subsequent period of Austerity, wage stagnation (in part exacerbated by high levels of immigration), etc. matter far more than campaign stats.

"There are lots of immigrants, it's hard to get a house and my wages are low"

"Actually, you stupid racist, you'll find that immigration is good for the economy and benefits us all on average. I love ethnic food too. Business relies on cheap labour for economic growth, and to keep inflation down. The housing shortage is not caused by immigration but..."

"I don't care about on average, how has it benefitted me? Lots of immigrant have council houses, but my son is on a 10 year waiting list. Is that fair?"

"Look fool, the housing crisis can only be solved by long term plan that is best served by being part of the EU and growing our economy so a rising tide lifts all boats."

"That's what you said before and it's worse now than ever..."

People often just see a choice between "change" and "more of the same" and think let's give change a try.

This is compounded when people dismiss their genuine concerns with mockery, condescension, and insults.




Honestly, this is just modern, high stakes Public Relations as practiced by all.

The industry itself is significantly developed out of psychological warfare from the World Wars and beyond.

The idea that "my side" relies on their trusty sword of truth and the "baddies" use modern professional PR techniques is silly.

Online voter targeting was significantly advanced by the Obama Campaign. Media spin and "dark arts" were a hallmark of the Blair government (including by key Remain campaign figure, Peter Mandelson).

The idea that Remain figures drawn from the right, centre and left like Mandelson and David Cameron all met up and said "So, we'll run on truth eh chaps?" is ridiculous.

Also, persuasion v propaganda, convincing v manipulating is not as clear cut a distinction as you seem to think.

If I look through all published stats, none of these are 'fake', but I select only the ones that best support my argument, don't try to select the most accurate, don't try to contextualise them accurately, only weave them into a particular narrative that I have designed to be as influential and emotionally resonant as possible, what is this?

What if I find a stat that I personally think is almost certainly wrong, but is published by a reputable organisation and is great for my argument? Do you expect any major campaign would refuse to use it on ethical grounds?

Some campaigns may indeed use less ethical tactics than others, but they are all manipulating with practices that are very far from an attempt to paint an accurate version of the "truth".
You might want to inform yourself on the practices by the likes of Cambridge Analytica.
Then you might want to look up which sides in politics are employing such tactics.
 

Altfish

Veteran Member
Because that's called exploitation and I'm rather shocked to find it approved by apparent liberals on here.
We exploit them that much that they used to return year after year.
Exploitation is when they have no choice.
Look, as long as they are not being run by gang masters and are paid at least the minimum wage, is it any different from a local doing the work?
I would happily double the minimum wage
 

Rival

Diex Aie
Staff member
Premium Member
We exploit them that much that they used to return year after year.
Exploitation is when they have no choice.
Look, as long as they are not being run by gang masters and are paid at least the minimum wage, is it any different from a local doing the work?
I would happily double the minimum wage
You think they would choose to do this if they felt they had other options?

Would Brits be happy with this or would we be forming unions?

Would you feel it a choice to be essentially forced by necessity to move to Spain and work in a vineyard for minimum wage?

It's just not striking a comfortable chord with me.
 

Altfish

Veteran Member
You think they would choose to do this if they felt they had other options?

Would Brits be happy with this or would we be forming unions?

Would you feel it a choice to be essentially forced by necessity to move to Spain and work in a vineyard for minimum wage?

It's just not striking a comfortable chord with me.
If there is a labour shortage for unskilled manual labour, what do we do? Let the food rot or pay people from abroad to do the work?
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
If there is a labour shortage for unskilled manual labour, what do we do? Let the food rot or pay people from abroad to do the work?

Not necessarily a labour shortage, brits won't work for the wage offered which exacerbates the labour shortage
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Not necessarily a labour shortage, brits won't work for the wage offered which exacerbates the labour shortage

But if you cut off their opportunities by limiting their ability to find work in other countries and then Brits will work for less, all else being equal.
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Not necessarily a labour shortage, brits won't work for the wage offered which exacerbates the labour shortage

Sounds more like a money shortage than a labor shortage, same as in the U.S.

Of course, people aren't going to work a job if the wages pay too little. As a result, employers who refuse to raise wages end up utilizing labor from the underground economy, using undocumented workers who aren't protected by minimum wage or other labor laws. The standing claim is that, if the employers have to pay them living wages, prices would go up even further. But the result is that the economy has grown dependent upon "illegal" labor.

And this wasn't even supposed to happen. NAFTA was touted as North America's equivalent of the EU, which Britain just Brexited out of. Intiially, it was claimed that NAFTA would severely curtail or even stop illegal immigration, since the economy of Mexico would be so wonderful that no one would have any need to immigrate illegally to the U.S. (There was also talk of expanding it into Central and South America as well at some point in the future, but that never happened.)

I just find it interesting that the same party who pushed for these types of agreements (such as NAFTA) are the same party calling for massive security and giant walls along the border. It seems that in practice, what they really wanted was the free flow of money across international borders to benefit the wealthy, but as far as the actual common people and workers - they don't get that luxury.
 
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