Why the NT is Historically and Theologically not acceptable for Torath Mosheh Jews

[BilliardsBall]

The choice of knife you use a Christian at up to you as a Christian.

In Torath Mosheh and Orthodox Jewish communities, the characteristics of the "types of knives" that can be used to do (שחיטה) were defined by Hashem to Mosheh ben-Amram and to everyone who was at Har Sinai. That was passed by mesorath from generation to generation of Torath Mosheh Jew.

Baloney. Talmud exists for presumed missing parts of Moshe's Law.

 

[Harel13]

Are you claiming you have available an original Septuagint from the 70 that lacks Christian interpolation?

No. I brought evidence from your own Church Fathers (whether you identify as Catholic or not is of no concern here, because those were the Christians at the time) clearly stating that the Septuagints were tampered with.

 

[BilliardsBall]

Actually, based on the refusal of the Zoom offer I have been making for some time, I have come to the understndanding that most Christians on RF who are trying to convince Jews to join them in Christianity are not concerned with what the Hebrew Tanakh actually says. Otherwise, they would jump at the prospect of showing me from the Hebrew Tanakh w/o translation and w/o commentary that thier claims are true. Thus, I get the impression that Christian commentary and translation is considered superior by certain types of Christians than the Hebrew Tanakh.

That is the impression I am given.

BTW - One Christian on RF took me up on the Zoom offer and we had a really good and peaceful conversation. Yet, I know most are not interested in that - but that is okay.

But I'm not most Christians, I'm Jewish. The Hebrew Tanakh pointed to sin, blood sacrifice and Messiah.

 

[Harel13]

You mean like thanking God I'm not a Gentile or a woman?

Yes, but in a different section of prayer. You often write on RF that you know a lot about Judaism. Do you know which section of prayer I'm talking about?

Also, note: "Gentile" is a Gentile word. That's not the term used in prayer.

 

[Rival]

You mean like thanking God I'm not a Gentile or a woman?

You realise this is said because Jewish males have more commandments to fulfil than any of those other classes? It's thanking G-d for giving them those things. You also missed slaves.

 

[BilliardsBall]

Then that says a lot of about what how their faith didn't amount to much for them or their children. If such a group, who have not been identified thus far, did exist they should have been able to easily be excluded and then build something stronger and better, based on their faith, than what existed for those who supposidely excluded them. I.e. the so called group you claim to be referencing should have easily been able to become the dominant group and should have had an unbroken group of descendents until the modern era.

The reality seems to be, from Christian sources that they excluded themselves because they thought Jesus was coming back in their generation. Paul's writings also seem to point to the original Jewish Christians wanting to be excluded from Torath Mosheh Jewish communities. So, in the end they were excluded because that is what they wanted.

In terms of sitting shiva. Given that the vast majority of messianics come from non-Torath Mosheh and non-Orthodox Jewish homes it is doubtful that a lot of them have had any sit shiva for them. The few that did have when they return to Torath Mosheh often state that while they were messianic they had already felt dead inside because of how distant the messianic movement is from the Torah.

An interesting theory, however, most Gentiles as well as most Jews reject personal, salvific trust in King Messiah. And in fact, where Messianics did well was in heeding King Messiah and avoiding physical conflict with Rome.

Paul's writings "point to" Jews abusing him for trusting Messiah. Just like unbelieving Jews here at RF are (usually) not peaceable but destructive, rude and foolish. I believe better of my Jewish brethren, but they tend to act as rudely as RF atheists do when challenging claims for Jesus Christ.

The "few that return" may tell you how far Messianism was from the true Torah, or like the ones I know, may have merely wanted to maintain their marriages and see their children in person. Shame on all who persecute them, even if they do so in their zeal for religion without the true saving knowledge of King Messiah.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

where Messianics did well was in heeding King Messiah and avoiding physical conflict with Rome.

If that is your measurement of success then the success of the modern Messianics doesn't sit very well.

Paul's writings "point to" Jews abusing him for trusting Messiah.

If one beleives Paul's writings. The Ebionite Christians probably abused him more than anyone else since they didn't beleive in him or his writings and they were found worthy to called heretics by the Church Fathers. Yet, whoever wrote the letters attesting to Paul won out so take that Ebionites.

Just like unbelieving Jews here at RF are (usually) not peaceable but destructive, rude and foolish. I believe better of my Jewish brethren, but they tend to act as rudely as RF atheists do when challenging claims for Jesus Christ.

So, our written words on a forum are destructive, rude, and foolish. You know there is a very easy solution you can simply ignore us and hang out with those who beleive like you. Based on your previous comments on other threads your group is filled to the brim with Pharisees and scholars. Besides, if we are so desctructive, rude, and foolish why are you willing to comment on threads that we start?

Besides, if I remember correctly the NT claims that all "spirits" shoud be tested and doesn't Paul say to prove all things? I guess that whoever wrote that into the NT was being sarcastic.

The "few that return" may tell you how far Messianism was from the true Torah, or like the ones I know, may have merely wanted to maintain their marriages and see their children in person. Shame on all who persecute them, even if they do so in their zeal for religion without the true saving knowledge of King Messiah.

Yes, shame all of those who do imaginary things to nameless people. Shame, shame, shame.

Also, shame on all those who would tell someone to let the dead bury the dead and to leave their families to follow him. Also, shame on all those who would tell people that if their hand is keeping them from the kingdom to cut it off. Shame on those who tell people to not be married like them. Shame on those who had Origen think the had to castrate himself to get into the Christian concept of the kingdom of heaven. Shame on all those who took part in the Crusades and the Inquisition. Shame on all those who would seperate themselves and then later go and blame those who they left. Shame on those who would pretend to be victims when no one is even victimizing them or paying attention to them. Shame, shame, shame.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

But I'm not most Christians, I'm Jewish. The Hebrew Tanakh pointed to sin, blood sacrifice and Messiah.

Okay, so:

1. Ashkenazi or Sephardi?
2. From what family?
3. Who is the human teacher/leader of your community?
4. Are you able to read a Hebrew Tanakh w/o translation?

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Baloney. Talmud exists for presumed missing parts of Moshe's Law.

No, not for Baloney. We don't do (שחיטה) on Baloney.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

That is not true at all. The reason why they ignored HIM is because they were not schooled properly by the Law and the Prophets.

Really. Where do you find the information that shows this? I agree with you that they were one of several groups that had no idea what they were talking about. I see that for a different reason then you probably do though.

However, they were right in that Jesus His Pre-Eminence is not the Son of GOD. The Christians have been very wrong about that.

Really. Can you proclaim that a bit more? There are a few Christians who have commented on this thread who seem to disagree with you.

 

[Yahcubs777]

Really. Where do you find the information that shows this? I agree with you that they were one of several groups that had no idea what they were talking about. I see that for a different reason then you probably do though.



Really. Can you proclaim that a bit more? There are a few Christians who have commented on this thread who seem to disagree with you.

Christians will disagree. But Jesus His Pre-Eminence said it HIMSELF: Many shall come in my name saying I am Christ and shall deceive many... not to mention HE directly told the Apostles to tell no man that HE is the Son of GOD. So it was here if anywhere that HE revealed it. Then when HE was tempted (though even that is so wrong), HE did not do what would prove HE is the Son of GOD. Thus, HE was revealing HE isn't. The Son of GOD is Father Adam. Luke 3:38

I say, he that is unjust, let him be unjust still, as was written in revelation 22

What im saying, is that the Law, the Great Moses and the Prophets did exceptionally well, but the false preachers infested the lands, and the people were not yet at a height of knowledge where they could not be deceived. Thus, they were not ready for Elijah when he came to them, and even rejected him. This is a result of teachings that were also altered, and mistranlsated, and coded by the Prophets in Prophetic language.

 

[pearl]

You have heard that it was said of them of ol time, thou shalt

Jesus is speaking completely within the confines of the arguments of the Judaism of His time. Hearing a sharp antithesis between the Jewish Torah and Christian ethics from Jesus’ lips is only possible if it is accepted (even unconsciously, possibly) that the presumption already mentioned more than once – that Christian doctrine is superior to Jewish doctrine – stretches the expression ‘you have heard that it is said … I say to you’ to the absurd.
This is, in fact, customary terminology in rabbinical discussion. The opinion of previous Torah exegetes is given first; thereafter the speaker gives his own interpretation as a contribution to the correct understanding (the ‘establishment’) of the Torah. It is remarkable that Christian translations always choose a contrasting translation for the Greek ‘egoo de legoo humin’: but I say to you – if possible translated even more strongly by ‘I even say’, whereas the Greek ‘de’ in the Gospels does not usually indicate an antithesis, but rather a connection. The translation should therefore simply read: Jewish exegetes who read the Scriptures (including the New Testament!) with ‘Jewish eyes through Jewish glasses’ (an expression used by Lapide) emphasise that Jesus is speaking completely within the confines of the arguments of the Judaism of His time and this corresponds with the usual rabbinical way of saying: ‘wa ani omeer lachem’, which is not an introduction to a contradiction of the Torah, but, on the contrary, an elucidation thereof. “Far from being ‘unique‘, this is a basic tenet of the ‘verbal Torah’ and accordingly it has many parallels in the Talmudic writings. ‘You have heard’ or ‘It is said’ followed by ‘And I say to you’ actually constitute a pair of fixed expressions in the basic vocabulary of rabbinical rhetoric. Jesus uses the common way of speaking to give His Torah explanation, and that He in no way intends to express Himself ‘antithetically’ about Torah and tradition, and that He intends the radically break with it even less. That is a Christian construction that came afterwards.

 

[Yahcubs777]

Jesus is speaking completely within the confines of the arguments of the Judaism of His time. Hearing a sharp antithesis between the Jewish Torah and Christian ethics from Jesus’ lips is only possible if it is accepted (even unconsciously, possibly) that the presumption already mentioned more than once – that Christian doctrine is superior to Jewish doctrine – stretches the expression ‘you have heard that it is said … I say to you’ to the absurd.
This is, in fact, customary terminology in rabbinical discussion. The opinion of previous Torah exegetes is given first; thereafter the speaker gives his own interpretation as a contribution to the correct understanding (the ‘establishment’) of the Torah. It is remarkable that Christian translations always choose a contrasting translation for the Greek ‘egoo de legoo humin’: but I say to you – if possible translated even more strongly by ‘I even say’, whereas the Greek ‘de’ in the Gospels does not usually indicate an antithesis, but rather a connection. The translation should therefore simply read: Jewish exegetes who read the Scriptures (including the New Testament!) with ‘Jewish eyes through Jewish glasses’ (an expression used by Lapide) emphasise that Jesus is speaking completely within the confines of the arguments of the Judaism of His time and this corresponds with the usual rabbinical way of saying: ‘wa ani omeer lachem’, which is not an introduction to a contradiction of the Torah, but, on the contrary, an elucidation thereof. “Far from being ‘unique‘, this is a basic tenet of the ‘verbal Torah’ and accordingly it has many parallels in the Talmudic writings. ‘You have heard’ or ‘It is said’ followed by ‘And I say to you’ actually constitute a pair of fixed expressions in the basic vocabulary of rabbinical rhetoric. Jesus uses the common way of speaking to give His Torah explanation, and that He in no way intends to express Himself ‘antithetically’ about Torah and tradition, and that He intends the radically break with it even less. That is a Christian construction that came afterwards.

That may be so, doesn't change the fact that HE said something that Moses did not. HE is not kicking against the law and the Prophets as HE said: I did not come to abolish the Law and the Prophets, but tio fulfil. Let us also not forget about what happened on the mountain of Olives, where Moses and Elijah both came to meet Jesus His Pre-Eminence transfigured, and it was revealed that the people should listen only to Jesus His Pre-Eminence. Thus, Jesus His Pre-Eminence was revealing what HE actually taught Moses, not kicking against what Moses said. Greek ior hebrew, Jesus His Pre-Eminence doesn't argue, HE preached the Gospel of Everlasting life. And thats why the people accused HIM of making HIMSELF equal with GOD and accused HIM of Blasphemy. Moses Law was not kind that any should kick against to a people that were exremely zealous in keeping it. The Word of GOD is not the kind to be argued. It is true, not up for contention.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Christians will disagree.

So, the Christians got it wrong. Interesting. So, what is your group called? Is your group going to correct the Christians, so that they can be on the sane page as you?

 

[Yahcubs777]

So, the Christians got it wrong. Interesting. So, what is your group called? Is your group going to correct the Christians, so that they can be on the sane page as you?

We do not convert. We are not looking for the crowd. We only seek to reap the children of the kingdom out of the Mother Harlot and her daughters. Thus the Revelations we have is the reaper that the children of the kingdom when they hear it, will Rejoice and join us. This is not the kind of message that is given for many, but for the remnant that got the job done. 144,000 men to be exact. Therefore, it is those that we seek to reach with our message, not to convert, but reveal the fathers to them, and the path to life.

I am an Arker. I am from the Ark of Jesus Ministries International. Put Simply, we are the Church of Father Adam His Eminence, the Son of GOD. Father Adam is the Axe (Arks) head, Jesus His Pre-Eminence is the one who is building, and we are being fed by Revelations that are raining by the mouth of Elijah, about GOD. The way i knew about what I explained to you is by Revelation. We are on a journey to transfiguration in life, by eating, assimilating Eucharistic Revelations from GOD into our Spirit Being which takes our physical body on a journey to part the red sea (blood) and bring down the building blocks of mortality (the walls of Jericho) and the River Jordan (water) in the body so that our Spirit and body can become one flesh. This is the mission of putting off mortality, and putting on immortality in life without dying and waiting for resurrection.

So correcting the christians is not the mission, eternal corrections of the Word is being handled by Elijah, who is in the earth today. And we have already travelled far.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

I am an Arker. I am from the Ark of Jesus Ministries International.

Got it. So, Christians are all wrong and the Ark of Jesus Ministries International which you are a part of is the right New Testament/Jesus centered group. So, you guys are not into coverting people. Good to hear.

 

[Yahcubs777]

Got it. So, Christians are all wrong and the Ark of Jesus Ministries International which you are a part of is the right New Testament/Jesus centered group. So, you guys are not into coverting people. Good to hear.

The children of the kingdom are not converted. They were sent into the earth by GOD to be born of a woman. Believe me or not doesn't matter to me, there are the children of the kingdom, and there are tares. Then there are children of resurrection, and children of life. It's not about being right, it's about knowing our GOD and HIS LAWS AND HIS STATUTES and HIS LOGOS according to what HE predestined for us and for the earth. I am running my race to my eternal country, Eden, the land of my fathers.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

The children of the kingdom are not converted.

Got it. Good to hear.

 

[pearl]

where Moses and Elijah both came to meet Jesus His Pre-Eminence transfigured, and it was revealed that the people should listen only to Jesus His Pre-Eminence.

Referring to the Transfiguration, symbolically meaning that Jesus was the embodiment of the Law and Prophets, I think a central reason Jews could not follow Jesus' 'Torah of the Messiah'.

 

[1213]

If that is what the NT authors were claiming about him then that is yet another layer of the reason why Torath Mosheh Jews and Orthodox Jews were commanded by Hashem to avoid/disregard the type of information found in the NT. Because in the Hebrew Torah there is no such thing as obeying the “letter of the law”, but not the “spirit of the law.”...

The whole Bible doesn’t have saying “letter of the law”, I was just trying to explain that, by what the Bible tells, people had left what is important in the law and were not obeying it whole heartedly. They were hypocrites that didn’t live as said in these:

and you shall love Yahweh your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your might.
Deut. 6:5

It shall happen, if you shall listen diligently to my commandments which I command you this day, to love Yahweh your God, and to serve him with all your heart and with all your soul,
Deut. 11:13

And more precisely Jesus criticizes people by this way:

Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe mint, dill, and cumin, and have left undone the weightier matters of the law: justice, mercy, and faith. But you ought to have done these, and not to have left the other undone… … Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and unrighteousness.
Matt. 23:23,25

You hypocrites! Well did Isaiah prophesy of you, saying, 'These people draw near to me with their mouth, And honor me with their lips; But their heart is far from me. And in vain do they worship me, Teaching as doctrine rules made by men.'"
Matt. 15:7-9

Unfortunately, that seems to fit quite well to modern “Christians”.