Why the NT is Historically and Theologically not acceptable for Torath Mosheh Jews

[1213]

...The NT, as it exists today, is a product of the Church Fathers. Thus, they defined modern Christianity way better than the Jewish followers of Jesus did....

I disagree with that, because the “Church fathers” didn’t write the scriptures, they may have collected them and misused them.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

I disagree with that, because the “Church fathers” didn’t write the scriptures, they may have collected them and misused them.

Thus, it is their product. Just because they didn't write them doesn't mean they didn't decide what was in and what was out. Further, if they had the ability to misuse they also had the ability to edit them and redact them.

Again, I know that Christians have a different standard. The authorship is one issue and the Church Fathers' decisions on what was in and what was out are just a few of the various reasons that Torath Mosheh Jews and Orthodox Jews stay away from them. Our standard from Mount Sinai, from Hashem, is clear in this area.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

We do not convert. We are not looking for the crowd. We only seek to reap the children of the kingdom out of the Mother Harlot and her daughters. Thus the Revelations we have is the reaper that the children of the kingdom when they hear it, will Rejoice and join us. This is not the kind of message that is given for many, but for the remnant that got the job done. 144,000 men to be exact. Therefore, it is those that we seek to reach with our message, not to convert, but reveal the fathers to them, and the path to life.

I am an Arker. I am from the Ark of Jesus Ministries International. Put Simply, we are the Church of Father Adam His Eminence, the Son of GOD. Father Adam is the Axe (Arks) head, Jesus His Pre-Eminence is the one who is building, and we are being fed by Revelations that are raining by the mouth of Elijah, about GOD. The way i knew about what I explained to you is by Revelation. We are on a journey to transfiguration in life, by eating, assimilating Eucharistic Revelations from GOD into our Spirit Being which takes our physical body on a journey to part the red sea (blood) and bring down the building blocks of mortality (the walls of Jericho) and the River Jordan (water) in the body so that our Spirit and body can become one flesh. This is the mission of putting off mortality, and putting on immortality in life without dying and waiting for resurrection.

So correcting the christians is not the mission, eternal corrections of the Word is being handled by Elijah, who is in the earth today. And we have already travelled far.

I visited your website, and the first thing I noticed was that there was no statement of faith or equivilent. SMH. What are you guys trying to hide?

Furthermore, your description above is awfully, awfully ideosyncratic among Jesus believers.

Finally, I personally find that those who "sheep steal" as they call it, who spend their time criticizing other branches of their religion, are basically given to pride. You might want to think about that before you go on about other Christian sects being "the harlot."

 

[Yahcubs777]

Referring to the Transfiguration, symbolically meaning that Jesus was the embodiment of the Law and Prophets, I think a central reason Jews could not follow Jesus' 'Torah of the Messiah'.

Transfiguration is not symbolic; it is the very image that the body of Father Adam was coupled before they ate from a certain tree which fruit caused the migration of his body from celestial to terrestrial; immortal to mortal so that procreation could be possible.

What Jesus His Pre-Eminence represented in that, is that HE is the Word that binds the Law and the Prophet together. The Law, Moses, the Word, Jesus His Pre-Eminence, the Prophet Elijah is the kingdom authority in the earth; the Constitution of the kingdom; where the seat of justice is.

And this is not new. Just as it was revealed in the life of Moses, Aaron and Miriam, the law Moses, the word Aaron, and the Prophet Miriam. But this setting was faulty. And also in the lives of shedrac, meshac and abednigo.

And finally in Apostles James, Peter and John.

 

[Yahcubs777]

I visited your website, and the first thing I noticed was that there was no statement of faith or equivilent. SMH. What are you guys trying to hide?

Furthermore, your description above is awfully, awfully ideosyncratic among Jesus believers.

Finally, I personally find that those who "sheep steal" as they call it, who spend their time criticizing other branches of their religion, are basically given to pride. You might want to think about that before you go on about other Christian sects being "the harlot."

Not really sure what you are trying to say here, but if it's faith you are looking for, that is the opposite of knowledge, there are plenty of denominations out there for you. The Mother Harlot is the Catholic church who hijacked the church. Therefore her daughter s is every denomination that was given birth by her.

We are knowers of our GOD. And the ARK we are coupling is our immortal celestial body. If faith is for you, then so be it. That is what the gentiles are there for.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Not really sure what you are trying to say here, but if it's faith you are looking for, that is the opposite of knowledge, there are plenty of denominations out there for you. The Mother Harlot is the Catholic church who hijacked the church. Therefore her daughter s is every denomination that was given birth by her.

We are knowers of our GOD. And the ARK we are coupling is our immortal celestial body. If faith is for you, then so be it. That is what the gentiles are there for.

I have both some knowledge (who has all knowledge but God?) and I have my faith, so I'm feeling pretty fortunate.

The church which the apostles set up was calling itself the Catholic Church by the end of the first century (see Ignatius). You can follow a direct line from that Apostolic church to the Catholic Church today. I think they make an excellent argument that they are Christians.

Your church however, was founded in the 1970's. Do you get my drift? I hardly think your church should be wagging its finger at other churches.

 

[Yahcubs777]

I have both some knowledge (who has all knowledge but God?) and I have my faith, so I'm feeling pretty fortunate.

The church which the apostles set up was calling itself the Catholic Church by the end of the first century (see Ignatius). You can follow a direct line from that Apostolic church to the Catholic Church today. I think they make an excellent argument that they are Christians.

Your church however, was founded in the 1970's. Do you get my drift? I hardly think your church should be wagging its finger at other churches.

Jesus His Pre-Eminence said HE will build HIS church. And revealed it's not the apostles. Secondly that my church was not founded in the 70s. It began in 2011 1/1/11 so maybe you went to the wrong site.

 

[Yahcubs777]

I have both some knowledge (who has all knowledge but God?) and I have my faith, so I'm feeling pretty fortunate.

The church which the apostles set up was calling itself the Catholic Church by the end of the first century (see Ignatius). You can follow a direct line from that Apostolic church to the Catholic Church today. I think they make an excellent argument that they are Christians.

Your church however, was founded in the 1970's. Do you get my drift? I hardly think your church should be wagging its finger at other churches.

The 7th Angel of the 7th church has all knowledge as was written.

 

[Yahcubs777]

I have both some knowledge (who has all knowledge but God?) and I have my faith, so I'm feeling pretty fortunate.

The church which the apostles set up was calling itself the Catholic Church by the end of the first century (see Ignatius). You can follow a direct line from that Apostolic church to the Catholic Church today. I think they make an excellent argument that they are Christians.

Your church however, was founded in the 1970's. Do you get my drift? I hardly think your church should be wagging its finger at other churches.

You don't know that the church was hijacked? Your Catholic church persecuted the church, stole the scrolls, hijacked the church and preached a counterfeit Christ. Do you know where it was revealed the apostles were not the ones to build the church? In the parable of wheats and tares.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

You don't know that the church was hijacked? Your Catholic church persecuted the church, stole the scrolls, hijacked the church and preached a counterfeit Christ. Do you know where it was revealed the apostles were not the ones to build the church? In the parable of wheats and tares.

My Catholic church???? I'm not even Christian. I'm Jewish. All I said was that the Catholic church makes a pretty good argument that they are Christians.

 

[Yahcubs777]

My Catholic church???? I'm not even Christian. I'm Jewish. All I said was that the Catholic church makes a pretty good argument that they are Christians.

Christians are the children of the kingdom. Catholics are the very Rome that Daniel the Prophet prophesied of. The first Christian is Father Adam. The church has been since Enoch. Enoch is the first Angel of the church, Noah 2nd, then Abraham, then Moses, then Joshua, then Apostle Peter then Elijah, the Son of Man. These are the 7 Angels of the 7 churches from Revelation 1-3 which is what the feast of unleavened bread was pointing to.

How are you Jewish and you did not know that the church has been with you since the fall?

 

[IndigoChild5559]

How are you Jewish and you did not know that the church has been with you since the fall?

Either you aren't being serious, or you know very little of the great differences in the interpretation of the Tanakh (OT) between Christians and Jews. If you ever seriously want to discuss what Jews believe, or how we interpret Genesis or any other part of the sacred texts, this is the perfect forum for it. All you have to do is open up a thread. But I'm assuming the above was a rhetorical question.

 

[Yahcubs777]

Either you aren't being serious, or you know very little of the great differences in the interpretation of the Tanakh (OT) between Christians and Jews. If you ever seriously want to discuss what Jews believe, or how we interpret Genesis or any other part of the sacred texts, this is the perfect forum for it. All you have to do is open up a thread. But I'm assuming the above was a rhetorical question.

It is not for Private interpretation. It was given to you by the Prophets which GOD sent to your people. I am serious. Why do you think isaiah 4:1 speaks of 7 women that will take hold of one man? Jews are not believers, or were never meant to believers, they had the evidence of GOD in their nation. They received Prophets, they had the Ark of theCovenant, the 2 tablet stone, thevery Most Holy Place, the Pool of Bethesda, the jews are knowers of their GOD. It is the christians that simply believe without any knowledge.

Yes, let us speak seriously for a moment. Why was it that GOD sent Prophets to your ancestors, and they killed them? Why is it, that they did not see Elijah as who was that Prophet to come after Moses? Why is it, that they hearkened to false prophets, desecrated the sanctuary, and were taken in as captives, they were so stiff necked, that Jeremiah was called a weeping Prophet. A people that badly misinterpreted the revelations that GOD was sending them by the mouth of the Angels of the Churches, and yet the land they believed they were possessors of, is what required them to slaughter and kill the people there. Let us talk more about how they rejected the Prophets sent to them and killed them. How they ignored the 2nd Angel of the Church, Noah, and thus only his family as saved. Let us talk about the people that affected Moses so badly, that it caused him to grudge against the people, which led to him doing what he was not supposed to do; an evidence of a Man that was robbed on his way to jericho. Let us talk about how Aaron system of animal sacrifice, which he is the high priest of, came from the High Priest of Medes. Who was he a priest of? And why that system has resulted in the belief systems of christians today. Let us talk about why Moses divorced his wife, what was it that led to that? Let us talk about the Family Tree of the Mankind Race, revealed in the nation of Israel...

Do not pass me of like i am some unknowledgeable Christian. I am eating Revelations that has unveiled Genesis to Revelation; why Exodus is the book that must follow Genesis; what the Mother Harlot is, where this started from is not the catholic church. Why Nimrod tried to build a tower that will reach heaven; what his identity really is, and what he hoped to achieve. Believe you me, I am far from the level you are at.

I simply told you, that the church did not start with Christians. The Church has been since the fall of Man. That each Angel of the Church was sent to the children of the kingdom to lead them back to heaven alive. It is what Enoch did. It is what the Ark of Noah adumbrated, it is what Abraham was told to do for Isaac, but his misinterpretation led to him nearly killing the boy. It was what Moses was commanded to do. It was what Joshua was commanded to do, it was Apostle Peter was supposed to do, but he did no do well at all and allowed the church to be hijacked. An Angel of the Church is the leader of the people at that time; all the people that are children of the kingdom and not just some. And they are sent to dispense the Revelations from GOD that can immortalise them in life; and transfigure them so that they can be given by that Angel of the Church as a living sacrifice; which is what it means to return a child to GOD. Not to kill them. No one goes to GOD through death. The Promised Land is Eden. That is the Land that was prepared for us, and it is a heavens world. Moses was supposed to understand that you cannot trek to the promised Land, but you mus fly. Else,GOD would have given Moses a Map.

So any number of these things, lets talk about it and I will share the bangers; the revelations (The Lightnings and thunderings) which I have known.

 

[rosends]

Eating revelations?

 

[IndigoChild5559]

It is not for Private interpretation.

I agree. Deuteronomy 17:8-13 says that when a matter arises that is to difficult, we are to take it to the Levites and judges. The judges today are the rabbis. Thus, we decide not as individuals, but as a community.

Jews are not believers, or were never meant to believers, they had the evidence of GOD in their nation. They received Prophets, they had the Ark of theCovenant, the 2 tablet stone, thevery Most Holy Place, the Pool of Bethesda, the jews are knowers of their GOD. It is the christians that simply believe without any knowledge.

The children of Israel have been called out by covenant to be a priestly people. It doesn't make us better or less sinful than anyone else. But it means we have been given the law, the promises, the land, the prophets...

As for belief, we show our belief in the LORD by our obedience, as everyone does. I'm assuming now that you are referring specifically to belief in Jesus as the messiah? Well, since Jesus is NOT the messiah, there is no reason to believe this.

Again, I find it arrogant that you pick on other Chrisitans. But really you should address this with them, rather than with me. I'm sure they will be more than willing to defend themselves.

Yes, let us speak seriously for a moment. Why was it that GOD sent Prophets to your ancestors, and they killed them? Why is it, that they did not see Elijah as who was that Prophet to come after Moses?

You are engaging in a strategy called dumping, which is when an interlocutor asks so many question that it overwhelms the responder. I won't fall for that. I will simply answer your first two questions. You need to narrow your topics, so that a reasonable discussion can take place.

Jezebel did kill a lot a prophets. I'm not aware of any other instance. I really don't understand the Christian claim that we killed all the prophets. Its just not true.

As far as the prophet who was to come after Moses, it was Joshua. Moses in this passage is preparing the people for his successor.

Do not pass me of like i am some unknowledgeable Christian.

Your studies are limited to the teachings of this ideosyncratic church that you are attending. It's view are way out in left field. For me as a Jew, anyone that follows Jesus is what I would call a Chrisitan. But I'm aware that mainstream Christians would point out that you are not the orthodox Nicene variety. I think that you will gain a lot from spending a few years in the forum in deep theological discussions with your fellow believers.

I simply told you, that the church did not start with Christians. The Church has been since the fall of Man.

This is just simply not true. This is no different than the Muslims claiming that Adam and Abraham were Muslims. Its the identical flawed reasoning.

Anyhow, I would enjoy talking to you about the commonalities and differences between your beliefs and those of Judaism's. However, you need to make your posts much more concise and to the point. Also, just for in the future, please remember that the NT is not an authority for Jews. Many Christians forget this and begin quoting the NT as if it helps them prove their point. Thanks for your consideration.

 

[Yahcubs777]

I agree. Deuteronomy 17:8-13 says that when a matter arises that is to difficult, we are to take it to the Levites and judges. The judges today are the rabbis. Thus, we decide not as individuals, but as a community.



The children of Israel have been called out by covenant to be a priestly people. It doesn't make us better or less sinful than anyone else. But it means we have been given the law, the promises, the land, the prophets...

As for belief, we show our belief in the LORD by our obedience, as everyone does. I'm assuming now that you are referring specifically to belief in Jesus as the messiah? Well, since Jesus is NOT the messiah, there is no reason to believe this.

Again, I find it arrogant that you pick on other Chrisitans. But really you should address this with them, rather than with me. I'm sure they will be more than willing to defend themselves.


You are engaging in a strategy called dumping, which is when an interlocutor asks so many question that it overwhelms the responder. I won't fall for that. I will simply answer your first two questions. You need to narrow your topics, so that a reasonable discussion can take place.

Jezebel did kill a lot a prophets. I'm not aware of any other instance. I really don't understand the Christian claim that we killed all the prophets. Its just not true.

As far as the prophet who was to come after Moses, it was Joshua. Moses in this passage is preparing the people for his successor.



Your studies are limited to the teachings of this ideosyncratic church that you are attending. It's view are way out in left field. For me as a Jew, anyone that follows Jesus is what I would call a Chrisitan. But I'm aware that mainstream Christians would point out that you are not the orthodox Nicene variety. I think that you will gain a lot from spending a few years in the forum in deep theological discussions with your fellow believers.


This is just simply not true. This is no different than the Muslims claiming that Adam and Abraham were Muslims. Its the identical flawed reasoning.

Anyhow, I would enjoy talking to you about the commonalities and differences between your beliefs and those of Judaism's. However, you need to make your posts much more concise and to the point. Also, just for in the future, please remember that the NT is not an authority for Jews. Many Christians forget this and begin quoting the NT as if it helps them prove their point. Thanks for your consideration.

The Judges are not the Rabbis, the Judges are the law, Moses, and the Prophets, Elijah. That is to say, the testominies of the Law and the Prophets is the kingdom authority in the earth. Rabbis? Which one of them was Prophesied to come and hears from GOD directly? They are not different to pastors, and bishops, and priests and deacons who all claim to be teachers of the Word of GOD.

Second, Israel the nation is in the definition of the nation of the children of the kingdom, "Israel" Is Rah El? Abraham, Isaac and jacob were defining the three Elijah who birthed the real 12 Apostles, defined by the sons of Jacob. That is to say, the Sons of Jacob names are the names of the tribes, but they are not the heads, or patriarchs of the tribes. Else, what tribe do you place Abraham in? Noah? Enoch? The people that GOD sent into the earth before the Abraham? This is a proof, that there are the 12 Apostles, birthed by the Elijah which are three,and they are as follows:

Samson, Noah, Enoch
Abraham, Moses, David
jephter, Zerubbabel, Joshua.
Gideon, Samuel Daniel.

Each Elijah gave birth to 4 sons each. And this all took place in Super-bio, not the biological. Father Adam is the Son of GOD, the only begotten Son of GOD, who paid a certain price for Mankind to come into an earth like this for procreation. Him and Mother Eve, Her Grace both paid the price, and they were called the lost sheep of Israel by Jesus His Pre-Eminence.

The Prophet that Moses spoke of, is the same that Malachi spoke of, and the same that John the baptist spoke of, and the same that Jesus His Pre-Eminence spoke of, the same Apostle Peter spoke of, and the same that Apostle John spoke of. Therefore, it is not Joshua. As Moses said, the Prophet he spoke of did not die. Did Joshua die?

You are not supposed to be believers. My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge. Where is the belief here? Where was the belief from Noah, who coupled an ARK from one tree? That is not belief, that is knowlege. Enoch proclaimed that he pleased GOD, and transfigured. Elijah journeyed to across Jordan where he transfigured and was separated by a whirwind, and taken up in the Chariot. Elijah didn't die.

You can call me arrogant its fine, but I have known the truth that has set me free from the bondage of religious captors. Thus, i do not compromise.

Father Adam is the Principal Ancestor of the Mankind Race; the Abraham of the Mankind Race, it is his seed that we are after. A Christian is a person who holds the Words of GOD in highest above all. Not someone that believed. A lot of people call themselves Christians, yet do not even know what Jesus His Pre-Eminence preached. A Christian is a person that rated the Words of GOD above all. That means above any Prophet or sent one, above Solomon, above all because HIS Words are perfect, while they spoke what they heard. And for them, they were not able to get it perfect.

Who was it that Noah was taught by? Enoch? Even Father Adam? GOD.

Yes, you killed Prophets sent to you. Prophets are not supposed to die. They are not supposed to be rejected. A Prophet is supposed to be a treasure to the nation he was sent to. That now they can hear what GOD is saying through the Prophet. A Prophet is not just a seer, but a decoder of Revelation that he is receiving from GOD, then teach the people what he decoded.

I have not even started to share what I have known. Here is a question for you.
Moses was commanded to make a brazen Serpent coiled around a pole. And everyone that had be bitten by snakes was to look up at the serpentine image to be healed. Do you know why the GOD who fed them with Manna and Quails required this to be what would bring their healing and not that HE would heal them?

And furthermore, why is that Image now the very emblem that represents the priesthood of medicine?

 

[BilliardsBall]

No. I brought evidence from your own Church Fathers (whether you identify as Catholic or not is of no concern here, because those were the Christians at the time) clearly stating that the Septuagints were tampered with.

In diaspora, we Jews (as always) made do. How did we manage to not keep for ourselves uncorrupted copies of the LXX?

 

[BilliardsBall]

Yes, but in a different section of prayer. You often write on RF that you know a lot about Judaism. Do you know which section of prayer I'm talking about?

Also, note: "Gentile" is a Gentile word. That's not the term used in prayer.

My heart breaks for you as my fellow Jew. I've abandoned your type of intellectual elitism. I count my former knowledge as cow dung compared to the joy of knowing Messiah. In that, I share with Rabbi Shaul.

I've never met a rabbi who could 1) deal with the holy scriptures without interpolating Talmud and tradition (sort of the way Catholics add to the NT) or who could 2) relax and take Shabbat in the love of God.

PS. I use words like "Gentile" because others read what we write, and see the difference between your elitist views and someone who wants to communicate God's Word. Why not take a step back with me to extol the excellencies of God's Word to man, brought forth as the Word of truth through us, the Chosen People?

 

[BilliardsBall]

You realise this is said because Jewish males have more commandments to fulfil than any of those other classes? It's thanking G-d for giving them those things. You also missed slaves.

You interpret this as "Thank you God that I have more commands to obey than others".

Messiah said, "Come, learn from me, my burdens are light".

The Good News according to both testaments isn't "More commands to obey or fall short of obeying!" but "Salvation is free, COME EVERYONE WHO IS THIRSTY AND DRINK".

 

[BilliardsBall]

If that is your measurement of success then the success of the modern Messianics doesn't sit very well.



If one beleives Paul's writings. The Ebionite Christians probably abused him more than anyone else since they didn't beleive in him or his writings and they were found worthy to called heretics by the Church Fathers. Yet, whoever wrote the letters attesting to Paul won out so take that Ebionites.



So, our written words on a forum are destructive, rude, and foolish. You know there is a very easy solution you can simply ignore us and hang out with those who beleive like you. Based on your previous comments on other threads your group is filled to the brim with Pharisees and scholars. Besides, if we are so desctructive, rude, and foolish why are you willing to comment on threads that we start?

Besides, if I remember correctly the NT claims that all "spirits" shoud be tested and doesn't Paul say to prove all things? I guess that whoever wrote that into the NT was being sarcastic.



Yes, shame all of those who do imaginary things to nameless people. Shame, shame, shame.

Also, shame on all those who would tell someone to let the dead bury the dead and to leave their families to follow him. Also, shame on all those who would tell people that if their hand is keeping them from the kingdom to cut it off. Shame on those who tell people to not be married like them. Shame on those who had Origen think the had to castrate himself to get into the Christian concept of the kingdom of heaven. Shame on all those who took part in the Crusades and the Inquisition. Shame on all those who would seperate themselves and then later go and blame those who they left. Shame on those who would pretend to be victims when no one is even victimizing them or paying attention to them. Shame, shame, shame.

I agree! Shame on Rome for bastardizing the Jewish-written, Jewish-lead, Jewish-Messianic truths of the testaments.

But the day an Orthodox tells me "why not just hang out only with those who believe like you . . . " [rolls eyes]. Born agains are CONSTANTLY pursuing the open-minded for discipleship and relish mentoring non-Christians.