Why would God send good people to Hell just because they dont believe he exists?

[waitasec]

do you need God?

I mean, can you handle matters by your self without God?

If so, in the hereafeter , do you think you may handle by your self and avoid Hell.

oh i see, some need to be coerced to behave morally ...interesting.

 

[Mohamed]

oh i see, some need to be coerced to behave morally ...interesting.

no he is free,and he is responsible for his desicion
we are not kids,god gave us minds before he burden us

some need to be punished because he is arrogant,i see it like this
and even if u see it like that,then what?!!

 

[waitasec]

no he is free,and he is responsible for his desicion
we are not kids,god gave us minds before he burden us

some need to be punished because he is arrogant,i see it like this
and even if u see it like that,then what?!!

explain to me how it is that people can be moral with out religion...

there is nothing you as a believer can do for the betterment of humanity that i cannot do


if you are talking about intolerance well that is another matter all together, it would seem religion has a monopoly on that one...
intolerance is not for the betterment of humanity, it's for the betterment of a bigotry.

 

[PolyHedral]

wisdom,or justice....

Death: Humans need fantasy to be human. To be the place where the falling angel meets the rising ape.
Susan: With tooth fairies? Hogfathers?
Death: Yes. As practice, you have to start out learning to believe the little lies.
Susan: So we can believe the big ones?
Death: Yes. Justice, mercy, duty. That sort of thing.
Susan: They're not the same at all.
Death: You think so? Then take the universe and grind it down to the finest powder, and sieve it through the finest sieve, and then show me one atom of justice, one molecule of mercy. And yet, you try to act as if there is some ideal order in the world. As if there is some, some rightness in the universe, by which it may be judged.
Hogfather, Terry Pratchet.

As far as the evidence can show us, justice is just as fictitious as Santa Claus. Mercy is just as non-existent as the Easter Bunny. You have shown no evidence to suggest your fantasy is anywhere close to as valid as the reality staring us in the face.

 

[Flat Earth Kyle]

i get it. you need to be coerced into being a good person...

All I was stating is just what I said
If you say there is no hell, you say there is not spirit world. Because Hell is the Spirit World.

as to you saying one needs to be coerced into being a good person,
the knowledge that our actions in this life will effect us in the next life makes one want to consider their actions a little better. My actions would be a lot different if I believed that as soon as I died I would cease to exist. For example I would have no consideration for laws and not care about what I did because I would think that this life all amounts to nothing in the end. It wouldn't make a difference whether I live or die for I am going to die eventually one day anyway. If I were to cease to exist when I die (go out like a candle) what would the real difference be for me if I were to go out and be the worlds biggest serial killer, or be the worlds greatest saint?
There would be no difference. I would have no reason not to be the worlds biggest serial killer. Knowledge of justice to come makes a huge difference.

 

[Otherright]

My problem is that there is no Hell in Judaic teachings. Then suddenly, when the New Testament comes along, there is a hell. I view it as a Greek dualistic interpolation.

 

[waitasec]

the knowledge that our actions in this life will effect us in the next life makes one want to consider their actions a little better.

weird... because the knowledge of the consequences of my actions in this life will effect this life...

 

[Flat Earth Kyle]

weird... because the knowledge of the consequences of my actions in this life will effect this life...

That much is true, but can you imagine a cancer patient who is told they will die in this amount of days and they decide to go crazy because they decide "If I'm going to die, I'm taking everyone I can with me!" I would recommend not doing that because death is not the end, we will be held accountable for our actions in this life.

 

[Mohamed]

explain to me how it is that people can be moral with out religion...

there is nothing you as a believer can do for the betterment of humanity that i cannot do


if you are talking about intolerance well that is another matter all together, it would seem religion has a monopoly on that one...
intolerance is not for the betterment of humanity, it's for the betterment of a bigotry.

ok,there is nothing i can do more than you but remember,i for sure will do it because i consider myself commanded to do,but a nonbeliever at most wont do
i don't know why people talk about love and kindness only,it's very important part in humanity yes,but there are other things too more important,like justice,telling truth alawys,even defending my land,even to smile, and every small or big thing.....
i do all that for sure because i feel responsability to do that,but in fact most of nonbelievers don't do that,forexample,if my father in court,i must witness what i know,if i'm a lawyer i must not defend a criminal,i don't just fear the law,but i feel god witnesses me all over the time,doesn't that make difference??!

and again i just said to you then what?!
let's consider that you are totally rigth about all that,if you (for some reason or another) became sure that god exists,would all what you said make difference for you?

i mean the important point is about are these religions and messengers true and honest or not?.are these books from god or not,that's what we should care about specially (as i said before) when we listen warning about punishment

and at last everybody is free to choose

 

[Mohamed]

Death: Humans need fantasy to be human. To be the place where the falling angel meets the rising ape.
Susan: With tooth fairies? Hogfathers?
Death: Yes. As practice, you have to start out learning to believe the little lies.
Susan: So we can believe the big ones?
Death: Yes. Justice, mercy, duty. That sort of thing.
Susan: They're not the same at all.
Death: You think so? Then take the universe and grind it down to the finest powder, and sieve it through the finest sieve, and then show me one atom of justice, one molecule of mercy. And yet, you try to act as if there is some ideal order in the world. As if there is some, some rightness in the universe, by which it may be judged.
Hogfather, Terry Pratchet.

As far as the evidence can show us, justice is just as fictitious as Santa Claus. Mercy is just as non-existent as the Easter Bunny. You have shown no evidence to suggest your fantasy is anywhere close to as valid as the reality staring us in the face.

why you think that?,nobody claim that the current life is just enough,we are just saying that the otherlife is tottaly just,i think it's logic,this life is a test,the afterlife is the Consequence...
as muslim,prophet Muhamed said that:for god,this life equals less than a wing of a fly
quran (for wonder) says :But when they forgot the warning they had received, We opened to them the gates of all (good) things, until, in the midst of their enjoyment of Our gifts, on a sudden, We called them to account, when lo! they were plunged in despair!

see!!!,but still some justice in this life,i'm egyptian,just see what's happening in our land now and you will find that there is unbelievable justice could exist when god wants ,we have never thought that we can remove this regime and that Mubarak (the president for 30 years) may stand in cage like that,and it happened in his last days,it's a verse the same like how god punished pharaon (ramsis ii) ...

 

[waitasec]

ok,there is nothing i can do more than you but remember,i for sure will do it because i consider myself commanded to do,but a nonbeliever at most wont do
i don't know why people talk about love and kindness only,it's very important part in humanity yes,but there are other things too more important,like justice,telling truth alawys,even defending my land,even to smile, and every small or big thing.....
i do all that for sure because i feel responsability to do that,but in fact most of nonbelievers don't do that,forexample,if my father in court,i must witness what i know,if i'm a lawyer i must not defend a criminal,i don't just fear the law,but i feel god witnesses me all over the time,doesn't that make difference??!

and again i just said to you then what?!
let's consider that you are totally rigth about all that,if you (for some reason or another) became sure that god exists,would all what you said make difference for you?

i mean the important point is about are these religions and messengers true and honest or not?.are these books from god or not,that's what we should care about specially (as i said before) when we listen warning about punishment

and at last everybody is free to choose

why does justice trump compassion?

 

[Mohamed]

god is the most merciful,but notice that we must ask for compassion to get it
just admitting that you were guilty and asking for compassion,i think it's easy
but denying god instead then god will treat us just

 

[waitasec]

god is the most merciful,but notice that we must ask for compassion to get it
just admitting that you were guilty and asking for compassion,i think it's easy
but denying god instead then god will treat us just

let me ask you something, do you have children?

 

[Mohamed]

i'm 21 years old

 

[Me Myself]

Because they reall really really wanted to go?

They could still dwelve on there for a while and get out when they change their minds though

 

[waitasec]

i'm 21 years old

ok. i have a child. and i can only speak from my experience as a parent
my son doesn't have to ask for compassion, he gets it automatically.
my love for my child doesn't depend on his love being reciprocated back to me. if my child disobeys me, because i know he understands where the lines are drawn, yes there is a punishment, however if i see that if he is truly repentant i see no need to further his self inflicted punishment. he now has regret, what else can i do? if he is not repentant then he doesn't understand the consequences of his actions. it is MY responsibility as a loving parent to show him what the consequences are, not to shun him or throw him out of the house. because if i do that, then my love for my son is all about how he respects me..which is not love but wanting the power of authority over him.
is it just to punish my son by throwing him in the fireplace because he hates me or second guesses me or mistrusts me?
if my son either hates, second guesses or mistrusts me it's because i haven't done my job...and his reaction to me is a reflection of what i've done to him.

we are mortal beings. if your god understands that we come with a ticking time bomb, why would he threaten us with ultimatums? personally i think the idea of god is that he is a really bad impatient parent, who is more concerned about being feared then teaching his creation anything knowing the short amount of time we are in the here and now but use that short amount of time to manipulate us. funny enough, this idea of god as being man made is supported by that very idea of an ultimatum due to our ticking time bomb. if there is a god, or whatever it is...i hardly think i am that important to be concerned about...some have accepted the indifference (the ticking time bomb) some are trying to make sense out of it, which is fine...however if these people that are trying to make sense out of it are also appointing their selves as the morally superior, then that is when i have a really big problem especially if their religious beliefs infringe on my personal rights because now the focus is off of them and placed on the wanting of control over others.

 

[smidjit]

can you explain to me the difference between an ultimatum and choice?

Yea. its mandatory that you choose.

 

[Mohamed]

ok. i have a child. and i can only speak from my experience as a parent
my son doesn't have to ask for compassion, he gets it automatically.
my love for my child doesn't depend on his love being reciprocated back to me. if my child disobeys me, because i know he understands where the lines are drawn, yes there is a punishment, however if i see that if he is truly repentant i see no need to further his self inflicted punishment. he now has regret, what else can i do? if he is not repentant then he doesn't understand the consequences of his actions. it is MY responsibility as a loving parent to show him what the consequences are, not to shun him or throw him out of the house. because if i do that, then my love for my son is all about how he respects me..which is not love but wanting the power of authority over him.
is it just to punish my son by throwing him in the fireplace because he hates me or second guesses me or mistrusts me?
if my son either hates, second guesses or mistrusts me it's because i haven't done my job...and his reaction to me is a reflection of what i've done to him.

we are mortal beings. if your god understands that we come with a ticking time bomb, why would he threaten us with ultimatums? personally i think the idea of god is that he is a really bad impatient parent, who is more concerned about being feared then teaching his creation anything knowing the short amount of time we are in the here and now but use that short amount of time to manipulate us. funny enough, this idea of god as being man made is supported by that very idea of an ultimatum due to our ticking time bomb. if there is a god, or whatever it is...i hardly think i am that important to be concerned about...some have accepted the indifference (the ticking time bomb) some are trying to make sense out of it, which is fine...however if these people that are trying to make sense out of it are also appointing their selves as the morally superior, then that is when i have a really big problem especially if their religious beliefs infringe on my personal rights because now the focus is off of them and placed on the wanting of control over others.

the comparison is not right at all
that's the mistake alawys people make
to compare to wrong things
first,god treat childs too,does he treat them like how he treats us?
no
they are not burden,they are not mindful,that's why you feel like that towards them
even if not my child i will feel the same towards him,he is poor at the end
but that doesn't make sense with a mindful arrogant man,right?

second,god is not father,i assure you
the relation between god and human is unique
it's very simple question
you know that (something) created you,how come you refuse to obey this (something)
you can't count god on his deeds,he is free to do what he want with his creature
that's not bad things about god unless you leave him
here is the point,we were supposed to obey god (all of us) since first day on this earth,and god would treat us with compassion,but challenging him instead makes you his enemy (in quran some people named as enimies to god),it's not about that you don't believe in god,it's about you don't intend to believe even if you found evidences
he didn't leave us lost,but he sent messengers,he sent evidences,i don't know why god should be merciful to his enemies??!!!,this is very unjust,and unlogic,i think some people made this lie just to make it like (god will forgive everything,then no need to believe in him or obey him),that's not in islam in fact...
you said:even there is a god,i don't give care
but notice,if there is a god,he will do his warning,right?
i don't know how to blame god after he warned us

 

[Mohamed]

AL-HIJR 49

Announce, (O Muhammad) unto My slaves that verily I am the Forgiving, the Merciful,And that My doom is the dolorous doom

i think it's clear here that some deserve compassion,and some not

 

[waitasec]

the comparison is not right at all
that's the mistake alawys people make
to compare to wrong things
first,god treat childs too,does he treat them like how he treats us?
no
they are not burden,they are not mindful,that's why you feel like that towards them
even if not my child i will feel the same towards him,he is poor at the end
but that doesn't make sense with a mindful arrogant man,right?

second,god is not father,i assure you
the relation between god and human is unique
it's very simple question
you know that (something) created you,how come you refuse to obey this (something)
you can't count god on his deeds,he is free to do what he want with his creature
that's not bad things about god unless you leave him
here is the point,we were supposed to obey god (all of us) since first day on this earth,and god would treat us with compassion,but challenging him instead makes you his enemy (in quran some people named as enimies to god),it's not about that you don't believe in god,it's about you don't intend to believe even if you found evidences
he didn't leave us lost,but he sent messengers,he sent evidences,i don't know why god should be merciful to his enemies??!!!,this is very unjust,and unlogic,i think some people made this lie just to make it like (god will forgive everything,then no need to believe in him or obey him),that's not in islam in fact...
you said:even there is a god,i don't give care
but notice,if there is a god,he will do his warning,right?
i don't know how to blame god after he warned us

warned of us what and why would he want to?
if your god requires to be feared your god is insecure...
that is a flawed human trait, not very impressive if you ask me.