• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Why would God send good people to Hell just because they dont believe he exists?

waitasec

Veteran Member
Well there's a TON of people that either don't believe in God or hate God and they know all about the consequences and the place they will go if they are wrong and the Bible is right and they continue to kick and scream whenever God or anyone else tries to help them escape their fate.

really a ton of people. hmmmmm, what sort of people are we talking about here? do you mean upstanding citizens who are honest and hard working people? people who mind their own business and do the best they can with what they have...? can you point them out...?
 

Meow Mix

Chatte Féministe
we still have respect among our community between different religions and we should stop anybody wants to crack our unity,you can critisize religion but don't insult prophets and religious symbols,i think that's more logic than banning woman from covering her face,can you insult the president of your country??

I can insult the president of my country, yes -- in fact, it happens quite frequently when our presidents mess up (which seems to be a lot these days).

Insulting should just be ignored, though: the real issue here is whether something can be critically analyzed. If I were earnestly trying to discover the truth behind some issue and I come to some conclusion that is "insulting" to someone, should I be jailed for that?

For instance, a common issue is about Mohammed and Aisha. I'm not wanting to debate this topic -- just pointing out that what some people perceive as "insulting" is actually earnest criticism to others. Some people believe that Mohammed had inappropriate relationships with Aisha when she was what people believe to be too young to be having that sort of relationship: if they talk about this and it insults someone, should they be jailed?

Of course not. Free speech is a right that everyone is entitled to, and no one should be entitled to the right "not to be offended." The minute you try to stop someone from saying anything that might be offensive to someone else, you must stop all speech.

Consider a Muslim trying to argue earnestly that Jesus wasn't crucified because that's what the Muslim believes. What if a Christian takes offense to this, and considers it slander on their religion? Should the Muslim be jailed?

Can you see how it would just get ridiculous really fast? None of this speech should be illegal. "Blasphemy laws" are frivolous nonsense for insecure and immature people.
 

Mohamed

Member
I can insult the president of my country, yes -- in fact, it happens quite frequently when our presidents mess up (which seems to be a lot these days).

the real issue here is whether something can be critically analyzed. If I were earnestly trying to discover the truth behind some issue and I come to some conclusion that is "insulting" to someone, should I be jailed for that?

.


at most it's critisism not insult,at least it's his right to arraign you
by the way,in our countries (even before revolutions) that was very common,presidents were being insulted but sometimes who insulted them got a trail.maybe the jaudger see it's in context of critisim,it's the same about prophets,if you meant critisism it's ok,but the direct insult means that you are provoking people who follow this religion


Insulting should just be ignored
.

that's right,but i will tell you how it goes
here in Egypt,muslims and christian lived together for very long time and relationship between them is very very deep,what happens when one or some muslims (forexample) start to attack the other side,maybe even they don't care about religions at all they just mean to crack the unity,how whould the other side take it??,christians will take it like (muslims) are provoking us,and some start to respond,till we become almost enemies (some western countries are like that in fact).
all that while nothing gained from insulting others,the gain comes frim critisism only.


For instance, a common issue is about Mohammed and Aisha. I'm not wanting to debate this topic -- just pointing out that what some people perceive as "insulting" is actually earnest criticism to others. Some people believe that Mohammed had inappropriate relationships with Aisha when she was what people believe to be too young to be having that sort of relationship: if they talk about this and it insults someone, should they be jailed?

.

Consider a Muslim trying to argue earnestly that Jesus wasn't crucified because that's what the Muslim believes. What if a Christian takes offense to this, and considers it slander on their religion? Should the Muslim be jailed?

.


i think law and jadicature can define exactly the difference between critisism and insult
and by the way all that debate are very normal here,it happens all the time everywhere including all the media
 

Meow Mix

Chatte Féministe
at most it's critisism not insult,at least it's his right to arraign you
by the way,in our countries (even before revolutions) that was very common,presidents were being insulted but sometimes who insulted them got a trail.maybe the jaudger see it's in context of critisim,it's the same about prophets,if you meant critisism it's ok,but the direct insult means that you are provoking people who follow this religion

I can say some very nasty, clearly insulting things about my president without even the slightest fear of being arrested. The only thing that could get me arrested is if I threatened the president; which is understandable for the president's safety. But, the point is that if I really wanted to, I could say something far worse than "President Obama is a dumb dumb poopyhead" and be totally safe while doing it. That's the way it should be.

(EDIT -- I also can't commit slander or libel by saying or printing anything that's clearly false or for which I have no evidence. For instance, I can't say "President Obama beats his wife" since I have no evidence of that, so it's libel/slander. However, I can say "President Obama is a no good sissy idiot that wouldn't know how to stand up for himself it it hit him on the nose" all that I want, completely legally! For the record, my opinion of Obama isn't that low -- that was just an example.)

I'm not saying that people should go insulting things just to insult them. I'm just saying that if they so happen to, they shouldn't be arrested. It's sort of like this: I shouldn't go around telling lies, but the state has no business for jailing me if I happen to, say, lie about my school schedule to get out of some social event I don't want to go to (just did that today, in fact!)

Mohamed said:
that's right,but i will tell you how it goes
here in Egypt,muslims and christian lived together for very long time and relationship between them is very very deep,what happens when one or some muslims (forexample) start to attack the other side,maybe even they don't care about religions at all they just mean to crack the unity,how whould the other side take it??,christians will take it like (muslims) are provoking us,and some start to respond,till we become almost enemies (some western countries are like that in fact).
all that while nothing gained from insulting others,the gain comes frim critisism only.

It's silly for anyone, anywhere, to blame an entire group of people for the actions of a few. I remember when I was very young the teacher of our class would punish the whole class for the actions of a few people -- that was totally unfair and ridiculous. Despite what the media might say about Americans, we don't all or even mostly blame all Muslims for the 9/11 extremist attacks, for instance. I don't see why we should cater to groups of people that are willing to judge other groups of people based on a few, do you?

Mohamed said:
i think law and jadicature can define exactly the difference between critisism and insult
and by the way all that debate are very normal here,it happens all the time everywhere including all the media

I don't think it's possible to just define what the difference between criticism and an insult.

For instance, go back to my original examples. Imagine that someone says (and please don't be offended -- but if you are offended, it will make my point for me how difficult it is to discern) "Mohammed is a pedophile because he had sex with a young girl." Is that an insult? It's hard to tell. Poll 10 people and you'll get 10 different answers.

Now with the other examples, imagine that a Muslim is honestly just trying to give his opinion when he says, "Jesus never died on the cross." Is that insulting to Christians? Ask 10 of them and again, you'll get 10 different answers.

It's not easy to define an insult from honest criticism -- nor do I believe an effort to define a boundary should really be made. The best solution is to uphold freedom of speech and expression and not to jail anyone for merely expressing what they think.

The responsibility shouldn't be on police to jail people for saying things that someone else might be offended by. There are probably 5 things each person does every day that offends at least someone on planet Earth.

The responsibility should be on people to act like mature and responsible adults and to just ignore anything that they feel is a blatant insult -- ignore it, not jail the person that says it. That's childish and totally unnecessary in my opinion.
 
Last edited:

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
If a person doesn't believe in God then he is hardly going to "know all about the consequences and the place they will go if they are wrong and the Bible is right..." Think about it, if I knew the consequences of my unbelief would be damnation then I would know God exists, correct?
Sounds reasonable to me. :yes:
 

DandyAndy

Active Member
really a ton of people. hmmmmm, what sort of people are we talking about here? do you mean upstanding citizens who are honest and hard working people? people who mind their own business and do the best they can with what they have...? can you point them out...?

Well, I'm speaking throughout the history of mankind...if we take a snapshot of today's world I *think* it's estimated that around 2 billion people would identify themselves as 'Christians' and that is a generous estimate. But 2 billion makes the math easy. There are over 6 billion people in the world, right? I would call over 4 billion a ton of people. Now we can make exceptions for small children and those that may believe in God but never heard the gospel or knew about Christ - God will judge them fairly - so we could maybe bump the heaven-going population up to maybe 2.5 billion. However you slice it, yes, a ton of people is an accurate statement.

Let me say that it is not my place to judge who goes to heaven and hell - only God can make that call. But it is made VERY plain in the Bible that those who do not trust in Christ, are not forgiven of their sins through Christ, and do not place their hope or faith in Christ, will be eternally separated from God - no judgement there on my part. Those are just the facts according to the Bible, that's what God said. It would be wrong of me to not point that out to others.

So to answer your question, yes, upstanding citizens that mind their own business and do nice things and try to be 'good' people will go to Hell without Christ. You know why? Because they are sinners just like you and me and Hitler and Kobe Bryant and Paul and Judas and Moses and Jimmy Paige and every other person that's going to either Heaven or Hell - the only thing that separates the two groups (speaking in very broad terms obviously) is Christ.

And it's not my place to point them out and say 'hey you unbeliever you are going to Hell because you are a terrible sinner!' and leave it at that. But it is my place to tell them 'listen, without Christ, without this personal relationship, without this forgiveness and transformation of your soul - the essence of what you are - you will be separated from God forever. You will experience 0 good and all bad FOREVER. You life will continue to be meaningless as you search for purpose and acceptance and love. I love you and God does a lot more than I do, so humble yourself, admit your problem and accept the solution that is freely given to all - that solution will change your temporal life now and your eternal life afterwards. The only solution is Christ.'

Penn (the guy from Penn and Teller), at least I think it's him (is he the bigger of the two?) is a staunch atheist, but he has a wonderful video on his blog about a Christian that very kindly approached him and offered him a Bible and offered to answer any questions he may have.

He explained that if I, as a Christian, believe what I believe to be true (and I do) and I love other people (as I should because God gave them value), then the WORST thing I could do is NOT tell them about Hell and the eternal separation from God that awaits them without Christ.
 

DandyAndy

Active Member
If a person doesn't believe in God then he is hardly going to "know all about the consequences and the place they will go if they are wrong and the Bible is right..." Think about it, if I knew the consequences of my unbelief would be damnation then I would know God exists, correct?

I dig Rush.

Obviously if you don't believe in God you don't believe in Hell. But your unbelief does not mean that you are unaware. I bet the majority of atheists understand Christ, the trinity, the resurrection, the crucifixion, the virgin birth and all the other big time Bible events that are essential to a belief in God - they are aware, they know it - but they don't believe it.

So I also bet some atheists understand that, according to the God they don't believe in, they will go to the Hell they don't believe in without accepting Christ that they don't believe in (at least his divinity) and will not get into the Heaven they don't believe in. That is if they are wrong and God is real and is there.

You can know the consequences without believing in them.
 

waitasec

Veteran Member
Well, I'm speaking throughout the history of mankind...if we take a snapshot of today's world I *think* it's estimated that around 2 billion people would identify themselves as 'Christians' and that is a generous estimate. But 2 billion makes the math easy. There are over 6 billion people in the world, right? I would call over 4 billion a ton of people. Now we can make exceptions for small children and those that may believe in God but never heard the gospel or knew about Christ - God will judge them fairly - so we could maybe bump the heaven-going population up to maybe 2.5 billion. However you slice it, yes, a ton of people is an accurate statement.

Let me say that it is not my place to judge who goes to heaven and hell - only God can make that call. But it is made VERY plain in the Bible that those who do not trust in Christ, are not forgiven of their sins through Christ, and do not place their hope or faith in Christ, will be eternally separated from God - no judgement there on my part. Those are just the facts according to the Bible, that's what God said. It would be wrong of me to not point that out to others.

So to answer your question, yes, upstanding citizens that mind their own business and do nice things and try to be 'good' people will go to Hell without Christ. You know why? Because they are sinners just like you and me and Hitler and Kobe Bryant and Paul and Judas and Moses and Jimmy Paige and every other person that's going to either Heaven or Hell - the only thing that separates the two groups (speaking in very broad terms obviously) is Christ.

And it's not my place to point them out and say 'hey you unbeliever you are going to Hell because you are a terrible sinner!' and leave it at that. But it is my place to tell them 'listen, without Christ, without this personal relationship, without this forgiveness and transformation of your soul - the essence of what you are - you will be separated from God forever. You will experience 0 good and all bad FOREVER. You life will continue to be meaningless as you search for purpose and acceptance and love. I love you and God does a lot more than I do, so humble yourself, admit your problem and accept the solution that is freely given to all - that solution will change your temporal life now and your eternal life afterwards. The only solution is Christ.'

Penn (the guy from Penn and Teller), at least I think it's him (is he the bigger of the two?) is a staunch atheist, but he has a wonderful video on his blog about a Christian that very kindly approached him and offered him a Bible and offered to answer any questions he may have.

He explained that if I, as a Christian, believe what I believe to be true (and I do) and I love other people (as I should because God gave them value), then the WORST thing I could do is NOT tell them about Hell and the eternal separation from God that awaits them without Christ.

seems to me you should be worried about yourself....
James 2:18
But someone will say, "You have faith; I have deeds." Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do.
talk about hell all you want but show me how you are set apart from everyone else to impress me. (i don't mean you but you in a general sense).
thus far from what i can tell some if not most people who happen to be christian try to control others by imposing their religious beliefs on those that do not adhere to the same religious belief...
so i don't see any difference between an insecure believer and an insecure person...so much for the peace of the lord...if people put their money where their mouths was, i wouldn't have any thing to complain about.
 

DandyAndy

Active Member
Sorry, yours was last on my list to reply to - I think the others were easier to reply to.

I'm curious, DandyAndy... Do you think it's possible for people to just will themselves to believe in something because they're told to.

Well, it depends. If we are talking about deep down inside in their 'heart of hearts' and we are only talking about 'believe this because I say so' without any evidence or reason to believe, I would say no.

If we are talking about kind of on the surface, going with the flow kind of belief, then yes, just look at history.

If you are talking about belief in God (I assume you are) you need to be a lot more specific because there are a TON of factors and assumptions that are involved with your question.

I kind of hate using the analogy of believing in leprechauns (since it's a favorite ploy of atheists when they're trying to insult Christians), but suppose you were told that you had to believe in leprechauns or you'd be tortured forever after you died.

If I was told this, the FIRST thing I would do is ask 'why?' and 'who says?' and 'show me' and 'give me evidence' and 'give me a valid reason(s)' and on and on. If the only information I received was what I underlined in your quote, I would dismiss it and go on my way. But if they answered my questions and they gave me reasons and evidence, actual probable stuff, I would give it a second look.

Do you think you could force yourself to believe, or do you think you'd say, "Sorry, I'll take my chances. If there really are leprechauns, I guess I'll reget it at some point. But I just can't be convinced that there are"?

This is a very flawed comparison because when you replace leprechaun with God, you are leaving out a TON of stuff. This comparison assumes that we know NOTHING of God.

There is no historically accurate, highly documented literary book written by nearly 40 people over a few thousand years that accurately describes real places, real events, real people and real prophecy about this reality and leprechauns. But we have one about God. There is 0 evidence that points to the probable existence of leprechauns - there is evidence that points to the probable existence of God. There is 0 evidence that this existence is the work of leprechauns - but there is evidence that it was made by God.

Whether the Bible is accurate and stuff really happened and the evidence is 100% right is inconsequential right now - the fact is those things exist, they are legitimate possibilities, and from my view they are likely to be valid.

You show me the kind of documentation, historical fact and prophecy we have concerning God that backs up the existence of dragons, unicorns, snipes and leprechauns and I'll seriously consider their validity.

But offer me a fairy tale with 0 reason, 0 evidence and 0 possibility and I'll walk away. Christianity is no fairy tale. And if it is a fairy tale, it was the most complex and elaborate hoax EVER, and I don't feel bad at all for being duped. But my personal experience assures me I am not duped - sadly I can't offer personal experience as legitimate evidence to anyone else.
 

DandyAndy

Active Member
seems to me you should be worried about yourself....
James 2:18
But someone will say, "You have faith; I have deeds." Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do.
talk about hell all you want but show me how you are set apart from everyone else to impress me. (i don't mean you but you in a general sense).
thus far from what i can tell some if not most people who happen to be christian try to control others by imposing their religious beliefs on those that do not adhere to the same religious belief...
so i don't see any difference between an insecure believer and an insecure person...so much for the peace of the lord...if people put their money where their mouths was, i wouldn't have any thing to complain about.

Listen, I agree with you 100% about what I underlined and James is my favorite book of the Bible because it is so in your face and honest.

I sympathize with that, seriously. The reason I walked away from my faith for almost 5 years was for multiple reasons, but what you described was a BIG part of that pie.

Unfortunately the whole thing isn't about how you and 6 billion other people act and God, it's about you and God. I understand that 'Christians' doing terrible things and abusing their beliefs and whatnot is off-putting, it burns my cookies a lot too. But my belief isn't based upon what Mike Huckabee and Michele Bachman do or say - it's about what God said through the Bible and did in the person of Christ.

You can't let good or bad people influence your opinion of a belief system or whatever else. If the people at McDonalds were mean but you LOVED Big Macs, would you never eat a Big Mac again because they were mean? I don't know. Maybe that's a bad example.

You have to base your decision upon what the Bible says and what the evidence is - what if those people you talk about call themselves Christians but don't follow what the Bible says? Are they a good example to look at? No. Am I a good example to look at, as a Christian? I will be the first to say no. The ONLY Christian we should look to for comparison/example is Christ. The rest of us are imperfect dolts that screw up a lot. That's why we are called to be rooted in Christ and to be like Christ.

Think of it this way - if you want an example of a well made classic film, do you watch Citizen Kane or do you watch Garfield the movie? (please say Citizen Kane...) In other words, if you want to REALLY know what something is like, you look to the best example of it. Christ is the best example and the only one you should look at.

I hope that you've read James and didn't just google search that verse. Like I said, it's my favorite and we could talk A LOT about it if you want.

Just please don't base your opinion of Christianity off us Christians that screw up and sin - we are human - we will let you down. Look to Christ because he won't let you down.

**EDIT** let me throw this in there - according to that verse, if a man claims to be a Christian and he hordes all his money, never donates $$ or time or attention to anyone in need (the poor, the hungry, widows, etc), doesn't love the people around him, is always grumpy, hates gays and muslims and constantly judges those outside the church and looks down on them - well, is he REALLY a Christian?

If it walks like a duck, talks like a duck, smells like a duck and acts like a duck, can it REALLY be a zebra?

No person can answer that for that individual - only the Bible can. Only God can judge them (as well as a fellow believer, because they submit to the same authority, but that's a different topic - 1 Corinthians 4 I think). If he's doing what a Christ follower is commanded to do - you know love God and others, donate, give, reach out, listen, share, be kind and stuff - he's probably a Christian. If he's doing all the wrong things and does nothing Christ commanded him to do - is he REALLY a Christ follower, or is he just someone that attached a label to himself? Matthew 7:21-23 is a sober reminder and echoes what James says.
 
Last edited:

Meow Mix

Chatte Féministe
I dig Rush.

Obviously if you don't believe in God you don't believe in Hell. But your unbelief does not mean that you are unaware. I bet the majority of atheists understand Christ, the trinity, the resurrection, the crucifixion, the virgin birth and all the other big time Bible events that are essential to a belief in God - they are aware, they know it - but they don't believe it.

So I also bet some atheists understand that, according to the God they don't believe in, they will go to the Hell they don't believe in without accepting Christ that they don't believe in (at least his divinity) and will not get into the Heaven they don't believe in. That is if they are wrong and God is real and is there.

You can know the consequences without believing in them.

And you don't find presenting a story that's absurdly difficult to believe to some people with eternity on the line for mere disbelief to be ridiculously evil on the part of the god that allows them to burn for it?

I literally can't fathom how you can even pretend to think such a god would in any way be "good" or "just." I mean it, I can't imagine how you can't be disgusted by such a horrific, malevolent being -- if it existed.

Let's say that I somehow control your eternal fate, and I decide to tell you a story about how on my way to work I was picked up by some leprechauns who took me through the 8th dimension to get there. Your eternal fate rests on believing this story to be true (even if you might not even believe that), but I offer you nothing to help your decision. When the time comes, I omnisciently know whether or not you actually believed it. Guess what? Turns out that you didn't believe it, so I light you on fire or allow you to be lit on fire for eternity.

Am I a nice, just person? No. I'm an awful, horrific, vile, wicked, and undeniably evil demon. How could you worship such an awful thing? I'm not trying to attack your beliefs, I'm really not. I just truly cannot comprehend how the god that you describe is thought to be "good" or "just" rather than "evil" and "malicious."
 
Last edited:

Meow Mix

Chatte Féministe
If I was told this, the FIRST thing I would do is ask 'why?' and 'who says?' and 'show me' and 'give me evidence' and 'give me a valid reason(s)' and on and on. If the only information I received was what I underlined in your quote, I would dismiss it and go on my way. But if they answered my questions and they gave me reasons and evidence, actual probable stuff, I would give it a second look.

So, what are the answers to those questions with respect to God and Jesus Christ?

You said you would ask "why" and "who says" and "show me" and "give me evidence" and "give me valid reasons" if you were told you had to believe in leprechauns in order to avoid damnation.

Well, can you please tell me "why" and "who says" and show me some evidence or valid reasons to believe in Jesus and God?

What if the evidence is shoddy -- what if it isn't very convincing, or at best ambiguous? Is God being good and just for punishing people eternally for being unsure whether or not to believe some ambiguous thing?
 

waitasec

Veteran Member
Listen, I agree with you 100% about what I underlined and James is my favorite book of the Bible because it is so in your face and honest.

I sympathize with that, seriously. The reason I walked away from my faith for almost 5 years was for multiple reasons, but what you described was a BIG part of that pie.

Unfortunately the whole thing isn't about how you and 6 billion other people act and God, it's about you and God. I understand that 'Christians' doing terrible things and abusing their beliefs and whatnot is off-putting, it burns my cookies a lot too. But my belief isn't based upon what Mike Huckabee and Michele Bachman do or say - it's about what God said through the Bible and did in the person of Christ.

You can't let good or bad people influence your opinion of a belief system or whatever else. If the people at McDonalds were mean but you LOVED Big Macs, would you never eat a Big Mac again because they were mean? I don't know. Maybe that's a bad example.

You have to base your decision upon what the Bible says and what the evidence is - what if those people you talk about call themselves Christians but don't follow what the Bible says? Are they a good example to look at? No. Am I a good example to look at, as a Christian? I will be the first to say no. The ONLY Christian we should look to for comparison/example is Christ. The rest of us are imperfect dolts that screw up a lot. That's why we are called to be rooted in Christ and to be like Christ.

Think of it this way - if you want an example of a well made classic film, do you watch Citizen Kane or do you watch Garfield the movie? (please say Citizen Kane...) In other words, if you want to REALLY know what something is like, you look to the best example of it. Christ is the best example and the only one you should look at.

I hope that you've read James and didn't just google search that verse. Like I said, it's my favorite and we could talk A LOT about it if you want.

Just please don't base your opinion of Christianity off us Christians that screw up and sin - we are human - we will let you down. Look to Christ because he won't let you down.

**EDIT** let me throw this in there - according to that verse, if a man claims to be a Christian and he hordes all his money, never donates $$ or time or attention to anyone in need (the poor, the hungry, widows, etc), doesn't love the people around him, is always grumpy, hates gays and muslims and constantly judges those outside the church and looks down on them - well, is he REALLY a Christian?

If it walks like a duck, talks like a duck, smells like a duck and acts like a duck, can it REALLY be a zebra?

No person can answer that for that individual - only the Bible can. Only God can judge them (as well as a fellow believer, because they submit to the same authority, but that's a different topic - 1 Corinthians 4 I think). If he's doing what a Christ follower is commanded to do - you know love God and others, donate, give, reach out, listen, share, be kind and stuff - he's probably a Christian. If he's doing all the wrong things and does nothing Christ commanded him to do - is he REALLY a Christ follower, or is he just someone that attached a label to himself? Matthew 7:21-23 is a sober reminder and echoes what James says.

thank you for your honest and sincere reply. :)
and yes i would pick citizen cane...

that is where the rubber meets the road for me. i've seen religion used as an excuse for good and bad behavior which tells me religion is just like anything else. sure there are a lot of really nice things in the bible but i can't ignore the ugly things and the irreconcilable differences either. i have to be true to myself when i'm skeptical.
and no one ever said being a christian was going to be easy...
 
I dig Rush.

Cool. They've been my favorite band for thirty years now.

Anyway,

Obviously if you don't believe in God you don't believe in Hell. But your unbelief does not mean that you are unaware. I bet the majority of atheists understand Christ, the trinity, the resurrection, the crucifixion, the virgin birth and all the other big time Bible events that are essential to a belief in God - they are aware, they know it - but they don't believe it.

So I also bet some atheists understand that, according to the God they don't believe in, they will go to the Hell they don't believe in without accepting Christ that they don't believe in (at least his divinity) and will not get into the Heaven they don't believe in. That is if they are wrong and God is real and is there.

You can know the consequences without believing in them.
Um, no, it doesn't work like that. Being aware of the beliefs and stories is not the same as knowing they are true or not. I don't know that I will end up in hell for my unbelief. I don't know that there is a God, a heaven, a hell, or any of that stuff. What I DO know is that YOU believe I will end up in hell for my unbelief.

Having said that, when I weigh the evidence and what I know with what I don't know about God's existence, I don't feel that the proposition of hell warrants any serious consideration.
 

DandyAndy

Active Member
thank you for your honest and sincere reply. :)
and yes i would pick citizen cane...

that is where the rubber meets the road for me. i've seen religion used as an excuse for good and bad behavior which tells me religion is just like anything else. sure there are a lot of really nice things in the bible but i can't ignore the ugly things and the irreconcilable differences either. i have to be true to myself when i'm skeptical.
and no one ever said being a christian was going to be easy...

Amen to that - John 16:33.

I appreciate the lively, intelligent and civil discourse we shared. You are free to believe as you wish and I hope I wasn't too pushy - this whole Christ and heaven thing is just the most important thing in my life - so it's important for me to share it because I want eternal life for everyone. But I can't force it on anyone.

If you ever want to talk about the ugly stuff you see from Christians or the Bible, I'll be glad to talk about it.
 

DandyAndy

Active Member
Cool. They've been my favorite band for thirty years now.

Anyway,

Um, no, it doesn't work like that. Being aware of the beliefs and stories is not the same as knowing they are true or not. I don't know that I will end up in hell for my unbelief. I don't know that there is a God, a heaven, a hell, or any of that stuff. What I DO know is that YOU believe I will end up in hell for my unbelief.

Having said that, when I weigh the evidence and what I know with what I don't know about God's existence, I don't feel that the proposition of hell warrants any serious consideration.

I simply meant that if Christianity is right, and you know what Christianity says, then you know what will happen to you if Christianity is right.

Same goes for me - if atheism is right and I know what happens to me if it is right (nothing) then it will happen to me even if I don't believe it. I think. Does that make sense?

If you view the evidence and are not convinced, that's fine, it's your decision. I get bummed when people base their disbelief off of bad evidence/information - I'm not accusing you of that, just throwing it out there.

Have you seen Rush live? What's your favorite Rush album?
 

DandyAndy

Active Member
So, what are the answers to those questions with respect to God and Jesus Christ?

You said you would ask "why" and "who says" and "show me" and "give me evidence" and "give me valid reasons" if you were told you had to believe in leprechauns in order to avoid damnation.

Well, can you please tell me "why" and "who says" and show me some evidence or valid reasons to believe in Jesus and God?

What if the evidence is shoddy -- what if it isn't very convincing, or at best ambiguous? Is God being good and just for punishing people eternally for being unsure whether or not to believe some ambiguous thing?

I don't think I have enough room to answer those questions...

Ok, do you want to know about belief in Jesus and God or about the whole sinful unbelievers going to Hell and sinful but forgiven believers going to Heaven thing? I'll stick to the Heaven and Hell thing...

I can give you answers to the first but instead I would refer you to someone like William Lane Craig or Ravi Zacahrias - plus I can't fit all that stuff into a post. The debate with Craig and Hitchens gives 5 good, clear reasons for the plausibility of the existence of God.

In regards to the Hell thing, I hope my message answers those. If you want clarification or more, just let me know.

I will say that whether the evidence is shoddy or not is subjective - many find the evidence shaky at best but many others find it overwhelming and concrete. Some say the Bible is unreliable, others say it is THE most verifiable and trustable book of antiquity. Some say the resurrection of Christ was impossible, others say it is impossible that it did not happen.
 

DandyAndy

Active Member
And you don't find presenting a story that's absurdly difficult to believe to some people with eternity on the line for mere disbelief to be ridiculously evil on the part of the god that allows them to burn for it?

I don't find it absurdly difficult to believe at all. Hell isn't for those that ONLY disbelieve - it is for those that are guilty of sin(s) AND disbelieve. Everyone is guilty and the only way to be forgiven is through belief and what follows (repentance, change of mindset and life, trust, etc.). You can't leave out the guilty part.

I literally can't fathom how you can even pretend to think such a god would in any way be "good" or "just." I mean it, I can't imagine how you can't be disgusted by such a horrific, malevolent being -- if it existed.

To be honest, most of the time (not all the time, most of the time) I can't fathom that someone could NOT think that God is holy, just, perfect and very real. I can't imagine how you can't be awestruck by the power, glory, wisdom and love of a God that would create such a complex world, create you in such a beautiful world, fill you with love and meaning, and give you the free will to live your life however you see fit. And on top of all that He has offered EVERYONE a way to have eternal life.


Let's say that I somehow control your eternal fate, and I decide to tell you a story about how on my way to work I was picked up by some leprechauns who took me through the 8th dimension to get there. Your eternal fate rests on believing this story to be true (even if you might not even believe that), but I offer you nothing to help your decision. When the time comes, I omnisciently know whether or not you actually believed it. Guess what? Turns out that you didn't believe it, so I light you on fire or allow you to be lit on fire for eternity.

Am I a nice, just person? No. I'm an awful, horrific, vile, wicked, and undeniably evil demon. How could you worship such an awful thing? I'm not trying to attack your beliefs, I'm really not. I just truly cannot comprehend how the god that you describe is thought to be "good" or "just" rather than "evil" and "malicious."

I know you aren't attacking my beliefs - it's ok - we both have strong feelings/beliefs and as long as we don't attack each other personally or each others beliefs I'm ok if you're ok.

I think I understand what you are getting at, and I understand you're just making an illustration, and I mean this with love and humility, but it sounds like you deeply misunderstand Christianity. Or perhaps you have left out A LOT of stuff - I know you can't get everything into an example but it seems like we are trying to figure out the third without first understanding the second or the first. I could be WAY off base - you may know more about my faith than I do - it's entirely possible.

Again, I'm not trying to be mean, it just sounds like you see God as some monster in the sky that made these people so he could torture them. If you've read the whole Bible or at least the major parts, I honestly don't understand how you can pull that out - it's like reading Jane Eyre and concluding that it's about UFOs that want to assimilate people into slaves. I hope I'm not coming across as a jerk - I think I'm begging to. I'm sorry.

I think we are just on polar opposite sides - which is ok - maybe we can clarify some things or maybe go one step at a time or something.
 

Jeneshisu

Smile ^^
Quite honestly, I wouldn't even worry about it. If there is a God that exists who would do such a thing, he's not worthy of being worshiped so much as even thought about.

And if he sends me to hell as a result, then I couldn't care less then either. Suffering for eternity or bowing down and serving a tyrant for eternity. What's the difference?
 
Top