Whats the basis for your beliefs ?
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Why would it matter if Jesus had risen from the dead?
- Thread starter Trailblazer
- Start date
I can't think of a better way ,than God revealing to us through written word .
PureX
Veteran Member
I don't "believe in" stuff. What I don't know is so much greater than anything I think I do know that anything I think I do know becomes highly suspect. At least if I'm being honest about it. So I quite pretending that I know stuff. And claiming to "believe in" this or that. Instead I just choose to trust in the benevolence of the mystery. I call that 'having faith' rather than belief.
Does God exist? I don't know. Is God benevolent if God does exist? I don't know. But I choose to trust in the idea that God does exist (whatever that means) and that God is ultimately benevolent. And I find that as I trust in this idea, my life is better for it than when I didn't. Does that mean the idea is "true"? Nope. But it doesn't mean it's not true, either. So I can continue to trust in the idea without being deliberately dishonest, and foolish. And this is how I approach all the various ideas about God. Because I know there is no way for me to know if or what God is beyond the greatest of mysteries. So I'm living with the mystery as best I can.
That sounds subjective ?
PureX
Veteran Member
Really? I can think of MANY! The funny thing is, though, that not one of them could ever logically be considered 'proof'.
PureX
Veteran Member
We are the subjects of our "subjectivity'. So of course it's subjective. I cannot be anything or anyone else. I am always subject to my own reality, as experience by my own self. It can be no other way.
And as I have gotten older, I have come to greatly appreciate these limitations. The limitations of my human 'unknowing'. They are actually our greatest gift. Even though we spend so much time trying to get "the answers". The truth is that it's the questions that make our existence purposeful.
74x12
Well-Known Member
Is it that you think God cannot translate a mortal body into an immortal body? What about Enoch? The author of Hebrews indicates he was translated so he wouldn't see death.
You have admit according to Genesis God did make Adam from dirt so ... that in itself is quite the transformation. If God can change dirt into a human then he can make a human into an immortal.
If you don't want to believe the Bible like liberal theologians don't; then that's your choice. I'm just talking about beliefs that are based on the Bible as are mine. By the way Atheists are not really very good at pointing out inconsistencies in the Bible. They just think they are. They aren't real scholars or Biblical experts.
As for John's warning about the antichrist spirit. I believe that if the spirit of antichrist is real -and he is- then he can't be too obvious about it all. He can't just go around saying "Jesus didn't come in the flesh" because everyone knows what John warns us about. People would catch on right away.
So the antichrist spirit has to be really clever about it. He has to say "Jesus didn't rise in the flesh" or "Jesus didn't really die in the flesh" etc. The antichrist spirit can come up with many different versions of the same basic thing. So I'm just letting you know. It's not to say that people in these religions are bad or that they are not really trying to be good. I'm just saying that the people who made these religions were tricked by the antichrist spirit. And all that word "antichrist" means is against Christ or in place of Christ. So it's a spirit that is ultimately against the Jesus of the Bible or even tries to replace the Jesus of the Bible with some other contrived version of "Christ".
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Admittedly I do not know that Bible very well, so I do not know what it says about what purportedly happened with Enoch. I believe what Paul said because it makes sense to me and because it is in accordance with my Baha'i beliefs about what happens to the body after we die physically. Essentially God does make us into an immortal, but not by making our physical flesh immortal, which is logically impossible. God makes us into an immortal by giving us a spiritual body.
1 Corinthians 15:40-54 New Living Translation
40 There are also bodies in the heavens and bodies on the earth. The glory of the heavenly bodies is different from the glory of the earthly bodies.
44 They are buried as natural human bodies, but they will be raised as spiritual bodies. For just as there are natural bodies, there are also spiritual bodies.
50 What I am saying, dear brothers and sisters, is that our physical bodies cannot inherit the Kingdom of God. These dying bodies cannot inherit what will last forever.
51 But let me reveal to you a wonderful secret. We will not all die, but we will all be transformed!
54 Then, when our dying bodies have been transformed into bodies that will never die,[c] this Scripture will be fulfilled: “Death is swallowed up in victory.[d]
Read full chapter
This is no different from what Baha’is believe even though we do not call it a resurrection. We say that when the soul leaves the body it takes on a new form, a spiritual body.
“The world beyond is as different from this world as this world is different from that of the child while still in the womb of its mother. When the soul attaineth the Presence of God, it will assume the form that best befitteth its immortality and is worthy of its celestial habitation.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 157
“The answer to the third question is this, that in the other world the human reality doth not assume a physical form, rather doth it take on a heavenly form, made up of elements of that heavenly realm.” Selections From the Writings of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, p. 194
In the past God Spoke in diverse manner at different times through the prophets ,but in these last days has spoken through his Son ,Jesus. Having a complete Bible we today can understand God through a complete Bible. We can know about God ,who he is and what we wants and such .We can know how to attain eternal life . Its all there in the bible.
Could you be wrong ? Because compared to us fallible humans God as revealed in the bible cannot lie ,he doesn't make mistakes.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
This is the primary reason Christians need to believe that Jesus rose, but it does not matter because Jesus is not coming back to earth to fulfill any Messianic prophecies unless the Bible is in error, and if the Bible is wrong about the verses below that calls all the other Bible verses into question, including the verses you believe say that Jesus was going to be raised from the dead.
John 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.
John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
John 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.
PureX
Veteran Member
That's biblioatry. The Bible is not God, and God is not a Bible. Treating man-made objects (texts) as though they were the equivalent of God is idolatry. Even the Bible authors themselves warned against that.
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PureX
Veteran Member
It doesn't matter who is right or who is wrong, because none of us can ever know that. So what matters, instead, is does it work? And by what criteria? And you'll have to decide that for yourself. As will I. This is why I say that it's the questions that really matter, not the answers (that we can't have).
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
The resurrection was not necessary to complete any circle. The work of Jesus was finished as soon as He died. What about these verses do Christians NOT understand?Well its not as simple as that, just him getting nailed to a cross and rising from the dead. It completes the circle so to speak of him being the savior and taking the sins on him etc.
However if he didn't raise from the dead etc. then obviously he wouldn't be the son of God as he claimed. This is just an extremely brief explanation and Christians could probably expand on it a whole lot more
John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
John 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.
Then men wrote a bunch of stories to try to bring Jesus back to physical life, but Jesus had ascended to heaven as soon as He died and He was living in a spiritual body with no intention of ever returning to earth.
Why they wrote these resurrection stories is anyone's best guess. Jesus did not rise from the dead, those were just stories the gospel writers told and as many atheists on this forum have proven, they are not based upon any historical facts.
It was not necessary for Jesus to rise from the dead in order to prove He was the Son of God. There is no logical connection whatsoever.
I ask myself why I care about this so much. I care because I care about the truth.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
It was necessary for Jesus to become 'apparent' to the Apostles and other followers to restore their faith so they could carry on and serve the Cause of Christ, and actually that is what Baha'is believe the resurrection stories mean.
"Therefore, we say that the meaning of Christ’s resurrection is as follows: the disciples were troubled and agitated after the martyrdom of Christ. The Reality of Christ, which signifies His teachings, His bounties, His perfections and His spiritual power, was hidden and concealed for two or three days after His martyrdom, and was not resplendent and manifest. No, rather it was lost, for the believers were few in number and were troubled and agitated. The Cause of Christ was like a lifeless body; and when after three days the disciples became assured and steadfast, and began to serve the Cause of Christ, and resolved to spread the divine teachings, putting His counsels into practice, and arising to serve Him, the Reality of Christ became resplendent and His bounty appeared; His religion found life; His teachings and His admonitions became evident and visible. In other words, the Cause of Christ was like a lifeless body until the life and the bounty of the Holy Spirit surrounded it.
Such is the meaning of the resurrection of Christ, and this was a true resurrection."
Some Answered Questions, pp. 103-105
biblioatry? Ok this a made up term . Its not biblical. No bible author warns against taken God at his word ,by his word .Your twisting the term idolatry into ' believing God's word '
Psalm 138 .
1¶[[A Psalm of David.]] I will praise thee with my whole heart: before the gods will I sing praise unto thee.
2I will worship toward thy holy temple, and praise thy name for thy lovingkindness and for thy truth: for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Please cite the verses where Jesus said that His physical body would rise from the dead.
Its interesting that you keep making truth claims and absolutes at the same time saying there is no absolutes or objective truth ? All this whist having no standard to point to . My position is i start with 1) God exists 2 ) The bible comes from God 3 The Bible is true and 4 ) God Cannot lie . These are my axioms.
What else could Jesus be referring to in John 2 ?
19¶Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
20¶Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?
21¶But he spake of the temple of his body .
22When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
So the solution was to make up stories about how Jesus rose from the dead? It worked though, for the gullible and wanna be believers. The sad thing is that belief in the resurrection is unnecessary for those Christians who could see the true Christ as He lived and died. If people need stories to bring Him back to life, they do not really value His life or what he did for them. Moreover, it is disrespecting Jesus to believe fictional stories that were written about Him long after his death;, it is disrespecting His life and real mission on earth, which had NOTHING to do with rising from the dead.