Why would it matter if Jesus had risen from the dead?

[PureX]

//We can try living our lives for a time as the embodiment of love, forgiveness, kindness and generosity, and will see for ourselves that it does indeed heal us and save us. //
Whist this may make ourselves better , this has nothing to do with the Gospel message and how a person is saved from Hell .

It's exactly about that. I think you just have a "magical" concept of hell.

 

[PureX]

That would be wild conjecture.

It's ALL conjecture. To interpret any written text is an act of conjecture. You don't seem to be able to grasp this.

Nothing in the context could possibly lead to that conclusion. It SAYS The body. In context and in keeping with the entire focus of the chapter ( and the NT ) its simply the physical body . The physical body is the only thing yet redeemed . Its what every believer is waiting for.

What does it mean to "redeem' a physical body? How does a physical body need "redeemed"? Redeemed from what?

 

[PureX]

I think it means the ' body ' . it doesn't say the body 'of 'anything.

Our body IS a dumb animal. It's nature is that of a dumb animal. It wants what it wants and cares of little else. What separates us from that dumb animal is our spirit: a divine spirit within us that reflects the God that created us. (The spirit of love, forgiveness, kindness and generosity.) Without that spirit within, the dumb animal just remains a dumb animal. And sadly, that is exactly who and what we are most of the time. BUT, if we are willing to allow that divine spirit within us to determine who we are and how we behave in life, we can transcend that dumb animal nature. The "body can be redeemed". And we will be 'saved from ourselves'. This is how I interpret the quote. Along with the warning that this "redemption" isn't instantaneous. It will take some persistence on our part.

 

[PureX]

You have part of it right. But you have to believe for it to make sense.

No I don't. I just have to understand what it's proposing, and then be willing to test it out in life.

Come at at critically
and it won't. I like the story of Moses and the Red Sea - the people were told to move forward
and THEN the sea would open. Regardless of whether you believe that or not is not the point,
it shows that the Old Testament too expected this of its followers. To follow it without believing
is not going to do a work in your life - and that will be obvious to others.

Ah, but faith is not "belief". We need to have faith in the possibility of salvation through that divine spirit within to act on it. But faith is just our choosing to act. It is not a blind pretense that our actions must succeed. Therefor no "belief" is required.

The greatest falsehood that organized religion tells is the lie that "belief" = faith. Belief = pretense and presumption. Whereas faith = choosing to trust in spite of our doubts. Belief denies doubt, whereas faith embraces it. This is why faith is the more honest and effective path. While belief is the path of self-deception. It's how religions can lead so many astray even as they claim to be doing otherwise.

 

[John1.12]

It's exactly about that. I think you just have a "magical" concept of hell.

That's not what the bible says .

 

[John1.12]

It's ALL conjecture. To interpret any written text is an act of conjecture. You don't seem to be able to grasp this.
What does it mean to "redeem' a physical body? How does a physical body need "redeemed"? Redeemed from what?

1cor 1
35¶But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?

36Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:

37And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:

38But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.

39¶All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.

40¶There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.

41There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.

42¶So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

43It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:

44It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

45And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

46¶Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

47The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.

48As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.

49And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

50¶Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

51Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

53For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

54So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

55O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

56The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.

57But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

58¶Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.

 

[PureX]

That's not what the bible says .

It "says" what we think it says.

 

[John1.12]

It "says" what we think it says.

Is this what you say when you read the daily news paper ? Or if a loved one writes a letter or an email? Does your reading comprehension suddenly fly out the window. You seem to be following what is said on here ?

 

[PureX]

1cor 1
35¶But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?

36Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:

37And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:

38But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.

39¶All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.

40¶There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.

41There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.

42¶So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

43It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:

44It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

45And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

46¶Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

47The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.

48As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.

49And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

50¶Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

51Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

53For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

54So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

55O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

56The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.

57But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

58¶Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.

You aren't answering the question posed to you.

 

[John1.12]

It's ALL conjecture. To interpret any written text is an act of conjecture. You don't seem to be able to grasp this.
What does it mean to "redeem' a physical body? How does a physical body need "redeemed"? Redeemed from what?

We don't have to rely on ' guesswork ' to understand the bible . The authors intent, Audience, and such is made clear.

 

[PureX]

Is this what you say when you read the daily news paper ? Or if a loved one writes a letter or an email? Does your reading comprehension suddenly fly out the window. You seem to be following what is said on here ?

Shakespeare is renown for writing plays that reflected and illuminated the universal nature of humanity, and yet not one of his stories was historically factual. His characters were not "real". They were artificial depictions representing a lot of different but similar real people at once. This is what artifice is for: representing the universal in a singular form that makes it easier for us to recognize and understand. It's what writers and artists of all kinds, do.

The Bible is comprised of mostly symbolic literature: metaphor, syllogism, symbolism, parable, myth, and so on. Because these are the forms of artifice that the writers used to try and capture what they saw as great universal truths, and convey them to others in as effective a way as they could. To treat the Bible like a newspaper is to ignore the content that the writers went to so much trouble to try and convey to us, in favor of some childishly over-simplistic interpretation that depends on our irrational denial and magical thinking to even make sense of it.

 

[John1.12]

Shakespeare is renown for writing plays that reflected and illuminated the universal nature of humanity, and yet not one of his stories was historically factual. His characters were not "real". They were artificial depictions representing a lot of different but similar real people at once. This is what artifice is for: representing the universal in a singular form that makes it easier for us to recognize and understand. It's what writers and artists of all kinds, do.

The Bible is comprised of mostly symbolic literature: metaphor, syllogism, symbolism, parable, myth, and so on. Because these are the forms of artifice that the writers used to try and capture what they saw as great universal truths, and convey them to others in as effective a way as they could. To treat the Bible like a newspaper is to ignore the content that the writers went to so much trouble to try and convey to us, in favor of some childishly over-simplistic interpretation that depends on our irrational denial and magical thinking to even make sense of it.

Shakespeare never stated it was factual .The bible does say what is written, happened. Each of the 40 Authors in the 66 books says why they are writing, to whom, why , where and what.

 

[PureX]

We don't have to rely on ' guesswork ' to understand the bible . The authors intent, Audience, and such is made clear.

Obviously, it is not being made clear enough, because there are as many different interpretations of it as there are people reading it. But I can't really blame the authors for that, as it is human nature to interpret whatever they encounter according to the bias of their own life's experience. How could it be otherwise?

 

[PureX]

Shakespeare never stated it was factual .The bible does say what is written, happened. Each of the 40 Authors in the 66 books says why they are writing, to whom, why , where and what.

Many of the authors had no idea what any of the other authors had written (or would write in the future). So no single author could logically claim any such knowledge, and neither could the many editors that assembled the texts over the centuries (and interpreted them into new languages). And they certainly did not all make that claim. In fact, I don't believe that claim has ever actually been made. I think that, too, is an interpretation of some creative writing.

 

[John1.12]

Shakespeare is renown for writing plays that reflected and illuminated the universal nature of humanity, and yet not one of his stories was historically factual. His characters were not "real". They were artificial depictions representing a lot of different but similar real people at once. This is what artifice is for: representing the universal in a singular form that makes it easier for us to recognize and understand. It's what writers and artists of all kinds, do.

The Bible is comprised of mostly symbolic literature: metaphor, syllogism, symbolism, parable, myth, and so on. Because these are the forms of artifice that the writers used to try and capture what they saw as great universal truths, and convey them to others in as effective a way as they could. To treat the Bible like a newspaper is to ignore the content that the writers went to so much trouble to try and convey to us, in favor of some childishly over-simplistic interpretation that depends on our irrational denial and magical thinking to even make sense of it.

From Paul's letters ,for instance, could you give one example ? He wrote 13 epistles in the NT

 

[John1.12]

Obviously, it is not being made clear enough, because there are as many different interpretations of it as there are people reading it. But I can't really blame the authors for that, as it is human nature to interpret whatever they encounter according to the bias of their own life's experience. How could it be otherwise?

There is only one correct interpretation. The one the Author intending. Which i believe is given in the text.

 

[John1.12]

Many of the authors had no idea what any of the other authors had written (or would write in the future). So no single author could logically claim any such knowledge, and neither could the many editors that assembled the texts over the centuries (and interpreted them into new languages). And they certainly did not all make that claim. In fact, I don't believe that claim has ever actually been made. I think that, too, is an interpretation of some creative writing.

Ultimately the Author is God . He made sure of what was written. That the bible claims also.

 

[PureX]

Ultimately the Author is God . He made sure of what was written. That the bible claims also.

There's that illogical, "magical thinking" I was referring to above.

 

[John1.12]

There's that illogical, "magical thinking" I was referring to above.

Illogical ? 66 books about God and you think by saying its Authored ultimately ( Through inspiration of God ) by God ,that's illogical?

 

[PureX]

Illogical ? 66 books about God and you think by saying its Authored ultimately ( Through inspiration of God ) by God ,that's illogical?

I am often inspired by the divine spirit of God. Yet that never seems to cause me to transcend the possibility of human error. And, I can't think of one logical reason why God would need to make fallible humans write him a book. Or why he'd want one written for him to begin with. Anything God wanted us to know, we would already know. I also see no logical reason why God would give "Bob" a message to give to "Pete". When he could give "Pete" the message directly, and eliminate the very high probability of error or abuse by "Bob".

Sorry, but from where I stand, 'bibliolatry' is a serious religious problem to be avoided. I'm just going to assume up front that anyone who tells me he has a message from God, for me, is either a liar, a huckster, or a fool.