Why would Muhammad pbuh say that

[Augustus]

So do you think the hadith isn't fabricated but not remarkable ?

I'm not saying I accept it as truly the words of Muhammed, just that it no longer seems to be a pretty clear forgery.

Hadiths that are likely to be fabricated are those that a) are very improbable b) closely relate to later political realities. Other than these I have very little opinion on their veracity. Although if the moon being split in 2 (miraculously unwitnessed by any non-Muslims) is mutawatir, then I don't really have much faith in the less reliable sahih hadiths. Some probably have some degree of truth, but I don't think it is easy to identify which.

Even something like the 'verse of the cranes' was accepted as being historically accurate by Ibn Taymiyya which would be considered blasphemous by most these days (even though he viewed it as reflecting the Prophet's honesty and desire for truth, rather than as a negative event). Opinions as to what is a valid opinion have changed over time, and seeing as subjective evaluation of the character of transmitters was important, why should anyone trust such judgements when it's clear they are prone to flaws and biases of human reasoning.

I thought before that it reflected b), but have change my mind as it is much narrower in meaning than I imagined before reading the text itself. Before I said "Did it not say, Islam will be widespread but few will be devout? They will focus on money and worldly status rather than God?", I was wrong though, this clearly isn't the meaning of the hadith though.

As such I remain agnostic to it's authenticity. (could be a fabrication to rationalise away a defeat though)

It is very far from remarkable though, just a typical military commander type comment. It's a bit like movie dialogue.

Remember, something being miraculous is the least likely explanation possible for any honest non-Muslim. Any other explanation is logically more likely to be correct even if it is very unlikely. In this case we have at least 2 pretty standard explanations that are not in any way improbable, so I assume one of them is more likely to be true that he explanation that it is in some way 'miraculous'.

Why do you think it is remarkable?

 

[FearGod]

I'm not saying I accept it as truly the words of Muhammed, just that it no longer seems to be a pretty clear forgery.

Hadiths that are likely to be fabricated are those that a) are very improbable b) closely relate to later political realities. Other than these I have very little opinion on their veracity. Although if the moon being split in 2 (miraculously unwitnessed by any non-Muslims) is mutawatir, then I don't really have much faith in the less reliable sahih hadiths. Some probably have some degree of truth, but I don't think it is easy to identify which.

Even something like the 'verse of the cranes' was accepted as being historically accurate by Ibn Taymiyya which would be considered blasphemous by most these days (even though he viewed it as reflecting the Prophet's honesty and desire for truth, rather than as a negative event). Opinions as to what is a valid opinion have changed over time, and seeing as subjective evaluation of the character of transmitters was important, why should anyone trust such judgements when it's clear they are prone to flaws and biases of human reasoning.

I thought before that it reflected b), but have change my mind as it is much narrower in meaning than I imagined before reading the text itself. Before I said "Did it not say, Islam will be widespread but few will be devout? They will focus on money and worldly status rather than God?", I was wrong though, this clearly isn't the meaning of the hadith though.

As such I remain agnostic to it's authenticity. (could be a fabrication to rationalise away a defeat though)

It is very far from remarkable though, just a typical military commander type comment. It's a bit like movie dialogue.

Remember, something being miraculous is the least likely explanation possible for any honest non-Muslim. Any other explanation is logically more likely to be correct even if it is very unlikely. In this case we have at least 2 pretty standard explanations that are not in any way improbable, so I assume one of them is more likely to be true that he explanation that it is in some way 'miraculous'.

Why do you think it is remarkable?

Can one hadith says you'll never lose any wars and no nation can ever win against you as you're
the chosen people and you'll be till the day of judgement, Islam is the right religion and your nation
will rule the world till the last hour.

If not, why not ?

 

[mahasn ebn sawresho]

First --ajb to know that Muhammad is not a prophet
Here the following verse from the Koran
We sent thee glad tidings and a warner
Here in this verse Muhammad is a missionary and Munther
The prophet is not
Second -
These words do not consider prophecy
But constantly incite fighting
Because he says that Islam be weak when it abandons love death
The love of death is suicide today
Who love to die for Islam
I wish I could talk extrapolation Mohammed from all aspects

 

[mahasn ebn sawresho]

Mohammed knows very well
That Islam was spread with sword
When abandon the Nation of Islam for the sword will become weak
Yes, it's provocative talk Class
That is consistent with the Koran and the teachings of the Koran, which calls for fighting
Jihad
When Muslims give up the duty of jihad in the way of Allah Islam becomes weak
You must study this aspect of modern
And terrorists are using this day to talk to incite their followers

 

[Augustus]

Can one hadith says you'll never lose any wars and no nation can ever win against you as you're
the chosen people and you'll be till the day of judgement, Islam is the right religion and your nation
will rule the world till the last hour.

If not, why not ?

Sorry, I don't understand your question so can't answer.

Can you rephrase it please?

 

[FearGod]

Sorry, I don't understand your question so can't answer.

Can you rephrase it please?

What if the prophet said the following instead.

Muslims will never lose any wars and no nation can ever beat them, you're the chosen people
and you'll be so till the day of judgement, Islam is the right religion and your nation will rule the
world till the last hour.

Why he didn't say so ? why he told them Muslims will be weak than being the strongest
nation till the last hour ? what prevented him of saying so ?

 

[leibowde84]

I would like to ask this question to the members here to listen to their opinion. The thought of asking such a question hit me while am watching this video. ( Watching the specified minutes from the video will make you understand the question more)

Yusuf Estes said at 13:50: By the way if you're gonna make up a religion and make a prophecy about it you would never prophecy that it will one day fall apart would you? No. And you would never prophecy something that it would make it look like ... there must be some problems, you wouldn't do that, but he was clear on these issues we are talking about.

Starting from minute 34:00, he started talking about a hadith. at 35:10 still talking about the hadith, he mentions that companions were asking about the conditions of muslims in now adays. They asked will we be few in numbers? The prophet said you will be all over the earth like the scum or the foam on a flood.(there are many other hadiths also talking about the weak position of muslims and Islam)

Now my question is if Muhammad peace be upon him wasn't a prophet who speak about prophecies and only say the truth, why would he say such things that would make Islam look as if it will fall apart?

Muhammad wanted to encourage the sense that it is the world vs. Islam. He had an interest in stopping his adherents from feeling comfortable.

 

[leibowde84]

What if the prophet said the following instead.

Muslims will never lose any wars and no nation can ever beat them, you're the chosen people
and you'll be so till the day of judgement, Islam is the right religion and your nation will rule the
world till the last hour.

Why he didn't say so ? why he told them Muslims will be weak than being the strongest
nation till the last hour ? what prevented him of saying so ?

Muhammad wanted to encourage the sense that it is the world vs. Islam. He had an interest in stopping his adherents from feeling comfortable.

 

[Augustus]

What if the prophet said the following instead.

Muslims will never lose any wars and no nation can ever beat them, you're the chosen people
and you'll be so till the day of judgement, Islam is the right religion and your nation will rule the
world till the last hour.

Why he didn't say so ? why he told them Muslims will be weak than being the strongest
nation till the last hour ? what prevented him of saying so ?

Battle of Mu'tah?

 

[FearGod]

Battle of Mu'tah?

Did Muhammed said that in the Battle of Mu'tah ? what's your source ?

 

[Unification]

Can one hadith says you'll never lose any wars and no nation can ever win against you as you're
the chosen people and you'll be till the day of judgement, Islam is the right religion and your nation
will rule the world till the last hour.

If not, why not ?

For me, none of this stuff is future, exoteric prophecy. It is abstract and occurring in mind.

Someone's world is their mind. A nation of peace and purity(Islam) within someone's mind will be able to overcome any internal war due to inner power, and strength. If an abstract nation of hate manifests in someone's mind, they will conquer and eradicate these thoughts.

Mankind tends to think like common mankind.... all about a literal nation's external power, war, conquering, destruction, etc. rather than abstractly conquering and destroying the negative abstract nations in their minds.

Islam wasn't meant to be an exoteric ruling and conquering dynasty. Islam is an inner way of life, a path and way of peace and purity.

 

[Unification]

Muhammad wanted to encourage the sense that it is the world vs. Islam. He had an interest in stopping his adherents from feeling comfortable.

Yes, a suffering mental world vs. a peaceful and pure mental world. If someone is mentally comfortable loathing in depression, and suffering.... they won't overcome. One must go to war, an inner war and conquer the things that have caused one to suffer.

 

[Unification]

What if the prophet said the following instead.

Muslims will never lose any wars and no nation can ever beat them, you're the chosen people
and you'll be so till the day of judgement, Islam is the right religion and your nation will rule the
world till the last hour.

Why he didn't say so ? why he told them Muslims will be weak than being the strongest
nation till the last hour ? what prevented him of saying so ?

Muslim minds are no different than most human minds: they are weak. They are dictated by emotions, driven for the wrong reasons, controlled and conditioned and conformed to a lot of negative stuff that causes harm. They tend to follow the crowd. Their mental world is corrupt. When someone dies out to all of that stuff, their mind becomes a strong nation... a nation of peace and purity able to overcome anything. A mental nation of greed will be conquered. A mental nation of hate will be conquered. A mental nation of taking texts exoterically will be conquered. And so on.

 

[Unification]

Did Muhammed said that in the Battle of Mu'tah ? what's your source ?

The Battle of Mu'tah likely never occurred historically. It's a battle symbolically within the mind. It's how deceived many minds are.

 

[psychoslice]

Its what Muhammad said or didn't say that is causeing all the problems throughout the world right now, I wish he never existed, that is if he ever did.

 

[mahasn ebn sawresho]

Its what Muhammad said or didn't say that is causeing all the problems throughout the world right now, I wish he never existed, that is if he ever did.

Wonderful and beautiful
Yes Muhammad was the reason why millions of people killed since the spread of Islam
And to this day his teachings were the cause of combat in wars
And the killing of innocent people and the spoils and the captivity of women
Your words really wonderful

 

[FearGod]

Its what Muhammad said or didn't say that is causeing all the problems throughout the world right now, I wish he never existed, that is if he ever did.

Yes.Yes.Yes....that's true

Such as world war 1 & 2

 

[Augustus]

Did Muhammed said that in the Battle of Mu'tah ? what's your source ?

It is an example of a battle that the Muslims didn't win.

It is hard to claim you will win every battle when you don't win every battle. No wise person would predict that they are invincible as it is very easily disproved.

Anyway, if he did say it, then the fact that it was false would have seen it rejected as a potential sahih hadith.

 

[FearGod]

It is an example of a battle that the Muslims didn't win.

It is hard to claim you will win every battle when you don't win every battle. No wise person would predict that they are invincible as it is very easily disproved.

Anyway, if he did say it, then the fact that it was false would have seen it rejected as a potential sahih hadith.

The messenger and the quran said that Islam will prevail and it'll spread east and west even though that the disbelievers
will try their best to prevent it but they won't success.

“Verily Allah has shown me the eastern and western part of the earth, and I saw the authority of my Ummah (nation) dominate all that I saw.” (Saheeh Muslim, hadeeth #2889)

“It is he (Allah) who has sent his Messenger (saw) with guidance and the religion of truth, in order for it to be dominant over all other religions, even though the Mushrikoon (disbelievers) hate it.” (EMQ at-Tawbah, 9: 33)

What if Islam didn't prevail to the east and the west after the death of the prophet, just a coincident right, yes..yes

 

[Augustus]

The messenger and the quran said that Islam will prevail and it'll spread east and west even though that the disbelievers
will try their best to prevent it but they won't success.

“Verily Allah has shown me the eastern and western part of the earth, and I saw the authority of my Ummah (nation) dominate all that I saw.” (Saheeh Muslim, hadeeth #2889)

“It is he (Allah) who has sent his Messenger (saw) with guidance and the religion of truth, in order for it to be dominant over all other religions, even though the Mushrikoon (disbelievers) hate it.” (EMQ at-Tawbah, 9: 33)

What if Islam didn't prevail to the east and the west after the death of the prophet, just a coincident right, yes..yes

Your logic is fallacious. See survivorship bias.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Survivorship_bias

Anyway, neither of them seem to be particularly true. Of course you will say 'we don't know what will happen in the future yet'

I'm still waiting for the Byzantine Empire to be reestablished so that you can fight them to bring about the apocalypse as per prophecy