Why would Muhammad pbuh say that

[Augustus]

Europe to us is the Rum, before and now and then.

certainly not then, as the tafsir clearly explains, not to mention the fact that it makes no conceptual sense given the geography of the Empire and the fact that Europe didn't exist as a concept.

Which is why some say Rum is Europe, others Italy others Turkey, Russia, America, the West, Christians in general, Orthodox Christians.

It's called clutching at straws...

 

[FearGod]

certainly not then, as the tafsir clearly explains, not to mention the fact that it makes no conceptual sense given the geography of the Empire and the fact that Europe didn't exist as a concept.

Which is why some say Rum is Europe, others Italy others Turkey, Russia, America, the West, Christians in general, Orthodox Christians.

It's called clutching at straws...

The Rum are the Indians and the Chinese, go and drink the water sea.

 

[Augustus]

The Rum are the Indians and the Chinese, go and drink the water sea.

Forgot to add the Copts to the list of people who are Rum... The Indians and the Chinese are pretty much the only ones who are not said to be Rum. From Egypt to America via Turkey and Russia and 2.4 billion Christians - All Rum, of course...

And you accuse non-Muslims of wilfully ignoring obvious truth

 

[FearGod]

Forgot to add the Copts to the list of people who are Rum... The Indians and the Chinese are pretty much the only ones who are not said to be Rum. From Egypt to America via Turkey and Russia and 2.4 billion Christians - All Rum, of course...

And you accuse non-Muslims of wilfully ignoring obvious truth

I said to you people coming from the direction of Europe, you're causing me a headache.

 

[Sabour]

Muhammad wanted to encourage the sense that it is the world vs. Islam. He had an interest in stopping his adherents from feeling comfortable.

Would one try to encourage that idea when he is trying to gather people around it, if it weren't the truth?

Do you think people would get abroad if you tell them the whole world will be against you?

 

[Sabour]

I'm not sure why Estes would take this particular track. Personally, I think it would be a very shrewd move to "prophesize" the demise of the religion you are bringing simply because all religions fail eventually. Inherently, people know this. It would lend an air of authority because the chances of a religion going off the rails of its original intent and form are almost 100%. In that respect it is such a safe assertion that it isn't really worthy of being called a prediction.

Why would people join if the person asking them to join is telling them the whole world will be against you?

If you trying to get someone to join you on something, would you say such thing? Or you would make it look nice ?

 

[Sabour]

Many religions say that at the end of time or at the end of a corrupt age, the "true" practice of the religion will fall apart and "true" believers will be few in number. Christianity and the Dharmic religions say that. The Greeks had something similar with their Golden Age concept. This isn't anything special. It does lead to religious fanaticism, as with ISIS, where people think they're "restoring" the "true" version of their religion. (There's fanatical "restorationist" versions of Christianity and Hinduism, as well.)

I think you missed my point. I didn't post this to show that it is special. I posted it to take a look at the possible reasons that Muhammad peace be upon him said that.

Additionally, I see no relation between this and ISIS the way you stated it. ISIS is alone another topic that would be involving lots of debates.

 

[leibowde84]

Would one try to encourage that idea when he is trying to gather people around it, if it weren't the truth?

Do you think people would get abroad if you tell them the whole world will be against you?

Absolutely, people always get behind a movement when they are convinced that the world is against them. This has been proven time and time again throughout history. Just look at Germany in the late 1920s and 30s. The National Socialist party gained support to a large degree by pointing the finger at outside forces that were causing their plight after WWI (namely the Jews). It was extremely successful. The same can be said about ISIS right now. They are getting recruits from all over the world convincing them that the West hates Islam, when, in reality, the much of the West hate extremism. It's the world against Islam to them, and it is certainly working. Muhammad could have had the same idea.

 

[Sabour]

Did it not say, Islam will be widespread but few will be devout? They will focus on money and worldly status rather than God?

Can't see why anyone could possibly have fabricated such a hadith in 8th-10th C Mesopotamia, when the clerics were vying for power as regards the Caliphs and Muslims were fighting each other frequently. Must be genuine, that's the only possible explanation...

That cant be the case because the description of muslims' state in the hadith isn't applicable to that century. It seems to be describing us nowadays. If you are going to go with the fabricated possibility, we can only say that it was fabricated two centuries ago, at most, which is not the case.

 

[Augustus]

That cant be the case because the description of muslims' state in the hadith isn't applicable to that century. It seems to be describing us nowadays. If you are going to go with the fabricated possibility, we can only say that it was fabricated two centuries ago, at most, which is not the case.

I changed my mind about it after reading the hadith.

Thauban reported that the messenger of Allah said: "It is near that the nations will call one another against you just as the eaters call one another to their dishes." Somebody asked: "Is this because we will be few in numbers that day?" He said: "Nay, but that day you shall be numerous, but you will be like the foam of the sea, and Allah will take the fear of you away from your enemies and will place weakness into your hearts." Somebody asked: "What is this weakness?" He said: "The love of the world and the dislike of death."

It just seems like the kind of comment a leader would make to his troops, and very much relates to the 7th C.

Basically, we are going to fight a lot and if you get complacent then you will lose. Stay fierce.

 

[Sabour]

Absolutely, people always get behind a movement when they are convinced that the world is against them. This has been proven time and time again throughout history. Just look at Germany in the late 1920s and 30s. The National Socialist party gained support to a large degree by pointing the finger at outside forces that were causing their plight after WWI (namely the Jews). It was extremely successful. The same can be said about ISIS right now. They are getting recruits from all over the world convincing them that the West hates Islam, when, in reality, the much of the West hate extremism. It's the world against Islam to them, and it is certainly working. Muhammad could have had the same idea.

The ISIS topic and Germany topics are so different matters.

For Germany, it was a nation controlled by a man, and eventually they were defeated.

For ISIS, it would be hard for people living in the western part of the world to understand the conditions in which people in the middle east are living. Most of people who are joining ISIS are people who are having extreme hardships in life and they are looking for a way out. Many of them were not practicing muslims, but they are only fed up by their situation. ISIS somehow deceives them and gets them on board. It is not because ISIS are convincing them that West hates Islam ( which is very obvious from the media). It is because these people are living in terrible conditions and they are not educated enough to tell the right from the wrong. Frankly, in the last five years, I have managed to meet many uneducated people and discuss with them about ISIS. I was amazed the part that education played in these conversations. Let me tell you that, 95 % of people who join ISIS are uneducated.

I fail to see the relation that you are trying to establish.

The companions of Muhammad peace be upon him were few people among the tribes that lived in Macca. They faced too much opposition and were tortured and expelled from their home. They were a minority among their people. I fail to see how your logic would fit into the equation.

 

[Sabour]

I changed my mind about it after reading the hadith.

Thauban reported that the messenger of Allah said: "It is near that the nations will call one another against you just as the eaters call one another to their dishes." Somebody asked: "Is this because we will be few in numbers that day?" He said: "Nay, but that day you shall be numerous, but you will be like the foam of the sea, and Allah will take the fear of you away from your enemies and will place weakness into your hearts." Somebody asked: "What is this weakness?" He said: "The love of the world and the dislike of death."

It just seems like the kind of comment a leader would make to his troops, and very much relates to the 7th C.

Basically, we are going to fight a lot and if you get complacent then you will lose. Stay fierce.

I think your explanation ignores the first part of the hadith, "It is near that the nations will call one another against you just as the eaters call one another to their dishes."

It is stated in the hadith that this will be happening, what is the relation between this and what you said? This only shows the weak state that Islam would be in.

 

[leibowde84]

For Germany, it was a nation controlled by a man, and eventually they were defeated.

As I clearly stated, I was talking about Germany in the 1920's and 30s, before Hitler had gained absolute power. This kind of rhetoric is clearly related as it was an effort to unite Germans behind him using fear of outsiders.

 

[Sabour]

Its what Muhammad said or didn't say that is causeing all the problems throughout the world right now, I wish he never existed, that is if he ever did.

Actually, frankly, and in all honesty, that is the FURTHEST statement away from the truth. Whether you mean it or not, it is these comments among people that cause us muslims a lot of troupble in the world today

 

[leibowde84]

The ISIS topic and Germany topics are so different matters.

For Germany, it was a nation controlled by a man, and eventually they were defeated.

For ISIS, it would be hard for people living in the western part of the world to understand the conditions in which people in the middle east are living. Most of people who are joining ISIS are people who are having extreme hardships in life and they are looking for a way out. Many of them were not practicing muslims, but they are only fed up by their situation. ISIS somehow deceives them and gets them on board. It is not because ISIS are convincing them that West hates Islam ( which is very obvious from the media). It is because these people are living in terrible conditions and they are not educated enough to tell the right from the wrong. Frankly, in the last five years, I have managed to meet many uneducated people and discuss with them about ISIS. I was amazed the part that education played in these conversations. Let me tell you that, 95 % of people who join ISIS are uneducated.

I fail to see the relation that you are trying to establish.

The companions of Muhammad peace be upon him were few people among the tribes that lived in Macca. They faced too much opposition and were tortured and expelled from their home. They were a minority among their people. I fail to see how your logic would fit into the equation.

Weren't many of Muhammad's followers uneducated? The vast majority of the entire world was illiterate back then.

 

[leibowde84]

Actually, frankly, and in all honesty, that is the FURTHEST statement away from the truth. Whether you mean it or not, it is these comments among people that cause us muslims a lot of troupble in the world today

I get this, and I wouldn't use words like this personally, but this is a free-society. Every adult human being has the responsibility to be able to ignore what they find offensive. No one has the right to be free from things that offend them. This is something that everyone in every community needs to work on, not just Muslims.

 

[Sabour]

As I clearly stated, I was talking about Germany in the 1920's and 30s, before Hitler had gained absolute power. This kind of rhetoric is clearly related as it was an effort to unite Germans behind him using fear of outsiders.

Well I did think you were talking about Hitler, kinda though it was WW2, apologies for that.

Still I fail to see what you are trying to establish here. I don't see why such a hadith should be told to the companions as it will only make them reluctant about Islam. Let us remember that at the times we are talking, followers of Muhammad peace be upon him were a few minority.

 

[leibowde84]

Well I did think you were talking about Hitler, kinda though it was WW2, apologies for that.

Still I fail to see what you are trying to establish here. I don't see why such a hadith should be told to the companions as it will only make them reluctant about Islam. Let us remember that at the times we are talking, followers of Muhammad peace be upon him were a few minority.

What was their situation like before Muhammad started preaching? Were they prosperous, or were they suffering hardship, for the most part?

 

[Sabour]

Weren't many of Muhammad's followers uneducated? The vast majority of the entire world was illiterate back then.

Some were educated some were not, but even if they all were, that can't be taken in consideration because back than life was very different.

 

[Augustus]

I think your explanation ignores the first part of the hadith, "It is near that the nations will call one another against you just as the eaters call one another to their dishes."

It is stated in the hadith that this will be happening, what is the relation between this and what you said? This only shows the weak state that Islam would be in.

Early Muslims fought a lot. Against other Byzantine Arabs, Persian Arabs, Persians, Byzantines, non-aligned Arabs, Turks, Armenians, etc., etc.

It is a warning against decadence.