Why would the 'loving' God of mainstream Christinaity do this?

[Ody]

To me, the concept of salvation via 'correct theology,' as opposed to 'correct action,' seems rather egotistical. Not at all what I would expect from a loving, merciful deity.

Same!

And one of the reasons Judaism 'clicked' for me!

 

[Willamena]

Why would the 'loving' God of mainstream Christianity send millions upon billions of his children to hell?

He sends them to hell because he loves them.

Hell, of course, is not a place, it is a metaphor for a state of mind, and it is not achieved after death but (as everything else we learn from) before it. When we are in hell, we learn about ourselves and, eventually, strive to improve that situation either by improving our circumstances, changing our mind to accommodate some other understanding of hell and circumstance, or changing ourselves from within. Hopefully the latter.

 

[Scuba Pete]

Why must G-d will it to be eternal and unescapeable?

It's impossible to escape yourself, though many try.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

There are folks out here, however, who understand that the "self" is not eternal.




Peace,
Mystic

 

[Ðanisty]

If you can understand how a loving God needs someone to be sacrificed to rid us of sin, you can understand why a loving God would send the unrepentant to hell.

I can't understand either...

 

[Snowbear]

Why should we treat someone with dignity who will face the wrath of God?

Because He told us to.... by being kind to others, whether or not they are believers, we demonstrate the same love and mercy that He shows to us believers:

Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved; as it is written, "There shall come out of Zion the Deliverer, and He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob.
Rom 11:27 For this is My covenant with them, when I have taken away their sins."
Rom 11:28 Indeed as regards the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes. But as regards the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
Rom 11:29 For the free gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
Rom 11:30 For as you also then disbelieved God, but now have been shown mercy through their disbelief,
Rom 11:31 even so these also have not believed now, so that through your mercy they may also obtain mercy.

 

[Snowbear]

Send millions upon billions of his children to hell?

Simple answer from my perspective, he won't.

Simple answer from the Word:

Rom 6:19 I speak in the manner of men because of the weakness of your flesh; for as you have yielded your members as slaves to uncleanness, and to lawless act unto lawless act, even so now yield your members as slaves to righteousness unto holiness.
Rom 6:20 For when you were the slaves of sin, you were free from righteousness.
Rom 6:21 What fruit did you have then in those things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death.
Rom 6:22 But now, being made free from sin, and having become slaves to God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end everlasting life.
Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Simple interpretation of the simple-minded bear:

The punishment of sin is death - as in separation from God, eternity in hell, whatever you want to call it.

In the form of Jesus, God took that punishment upon Himself.... that's what Jesus did when He allowed Himself to be scourged and humiliated and crucified... he died descended into hell. But the cool part is He didn't have to spend eternity there, since by His resurrection, He conquered that eternal death and demonstrated that by accepting His gift of paying the wages of sin for us, we too will be resurrected in Him.

 

[Fluffy]

He gave us free will to choose between right and wrong. Hell is the punishment for those who have chosen to do wrong. Why did he give us free will will probably be your next question. Probably because he didn't want us to be his puppets or playthings.

He has not provided sufficient evidence that I will go to hell if I do wrong. He has not outlined clearly enough what is right and what is wrong.

Hell has a punishment would be more justifiable if everyone was clear that it would be the consequence for committing sin. However it is not clear and this can be proven by the fact that many people do not believe in God's existence (obviously they would if it was clear).

 

[Mike182]

He gave us free will to choose between right and wrong. Hell is the punishment for those who have chosen to do wrong. Why did he give us free will will probably be your next question. Probably because he didn't want us to be his puppets or playthings.

surely by this argument, we are his puppets and play things.

on one hand, we can choose him, and everything is fine - we get eternal life, he gets his children

on the other hand, we don't choose him, and we get flung away - when i was a child, if my toys didn't do what i wanted, i threw them away..... i think that in this instance, "free will" is an argument to take away the saddistic nature of God's ultimatum, and this is why i don't believe those who do not believe will go to hell.

 

[zombieharlot]

Based on how much I know bout u ZH, punishment from G-d is the last thing you should be worrying bout. The real G-d loves the just and kind

A may be just and kind, or I may be the most horrible person in the world. But it doesn't matter because I'm still going to hell either way. The way I dress has me labeled perverse and immoral, and if that makes me worthy of hell, so be it.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

You know,

when my son turns 18, I can't force him to spend time with me.

God has the same problem with all of us.

Hell is merely the absense of God.

But you're not omni-present, NetDoc. We are with God everywhere we are, whether in heaven or hell. God is what makes hell so unbearable - it is an improper relationship with the glory of God. God's glory is like fire. It is all consuming and destructive if you're in the wrong relationship with it, and life giving and sustaining if you are in right relationship.

Remember the Psalm - if I go down into the depths, you are there. Psalm 139.

 

[Scuba Pete]

BTW,

where in the scriptures does it describe God as omni-present?

 

[angellous_evangellous]

BTW,

where in the scriptures does it describe God as omni-present?

I figured that Psalm 139 would be sufficient. A more comprehensive review might not be available online, but I will take a look around.

Psalm 139

1O LORD, you have searched me and known me!
2You know when I sit down and when I rise up;
you discern my thoughts from afar.
3You search out my path and my lying down
and are acquainted with all my ways.
4Even before a word is on my tongue,
behold, O LORD, you know it altogether.
5You hem me in, behind and before,
and lay your hand upon me.
6Such knowledge is too wonderful for me;
it is high; I cannot attain it.


7Where shall I go from your Spirit?
Or where shall I flee from your presence?
8If I ascend to heaven, you are there!
If I make my bed in Sheol, you are there!
9If I take the wings of the morning
and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea,
10even there your hand shall lead me,
and your right hand shall hold me.
11If I say, "Surely the darkness shall cover me,
and the light about me be night,"
12even the darkness is not dark to you;
the night is bright as the day,
for darkness is as light with you.

13For you formed my inward parts;
you knitted me together in my mother's womb.
14I praise you, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made.[a]
Wonderful are your works;
my soul knows it very well.
15My frame was not hidden from you,
when I was being made in secret,
intricately woven in the depths of the earth.
16Your eyes saw my unformed substance;
in your book were written, every one of them,
the days that were formed for me,
when as yet there were none of them.

17How precious to me are your thoughts, O God!
How vast is the sum of them!
18If I would count them, they are more than the sand.
I awake, and I am still with you.

19Oh that you would slay the wicked, O God!
O men of blood, depart from me!
20They speak against you with malicious intent;
your enemies take your name in vain![b]
21Do I not hate those who hate you, O LORD?
And do I not loathe those who rise up against you?
22I hate them with complete hatred;
I count them my enemies.
23Search me, O God, and know my heart!
Try me and know my thoughts![c]
24And see if there be any grievous way in me,
and lead me in the way everlasting![d]

 

[angellous_evangellous]

See this NetDoc:

http://www.ovrlnd.com/Teaching/omnipresence_hell.html

 

[Scuba Pete]

That scripture does not teach omni-presense except for a believer. It's in the same vein as "Who can separate me from the Love of Christ?".

It can also be seen as being metaphorical as well, but still it does not tell us that God is everywhere at all times.

 

[sojourner]

That scripture does not teach omni-presense except for a believer. It's in the same vein as "Who can separate me from the Love of Christ?".

It can also be seen as being metaphorical as well, but still it does not tell us that God is everywhere at all times.

Why would a non-believer be interested in the nature of something he doesn't believe in?

Of course it's metaphorical. That's really the only way we can talk about God: "God is like..." Even Jesus relied on metaphor to talk about the kingdom. But, metaphor has a basis in reality. Metaphor attempts to bring reality closer to our understanding.

 

[Quiddity]

I posted this in another thread and feel it's relevant to this one.

It is the catholic view that God does not create any mechanism that causes pain in the afterlife. Rather (like the East), the pain/discomfort is an experience as a result of a choice. It is not necessary to say that God imposes hell as punishment. It is not clear that God makes it intentionally unpleasant. It may be the very nature of the people who are there, and the fact that they are finally given what they want: freedom from God.

To the RC, heaven and hell may be the very same objective place (if one wishes to call it a place as an anthrophormism), that being God's love, experienced oppositely by opposite states/souls.

From,
CATECHISM OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH
1033: We cannot be united with God unless we freely choose to love him. But we cannot love God if we sin gravely against him, against our neighbor or against ourselves: "He who does not love remains in death. Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him."612 Our Lord warns us that we shall be separated from him if we fail to meet the serious needs of the poor and the little ones who are his brethren.613 To die in mortal sin without repenting and accepting God's merciful love means remaining separated from him for ever by our own free choice. This state of definitive self-exclusion from communion with God and the blessed is called "hell."

 

[Sasa]

Children who are not old enough to make the choice of whether or not to accept God will not go to Hell or be kept out of Heaven. They are also not required to be Baptized to get to Heaven. That is a fallacy. I've talked to so many mothers who were scared to death that their babies weren't in Heaven because they died before they could be Baptized and it's really just so sad because the truth is that Baptism is a symbolic gesture of accepting Christ and it's not a requirement that determines whether or not we are accepted into Heaven.

 

[Ezzedean]

Because he says you have to believe and be baptized to be saved, that's why.

Moses was never Baptized, neither was Adam or Noah, and neither was Abrahah, aswell as millions upon millions of people before Jesus. I don't believe in the whole baptizing deal, not just because I'm a muslim but because there are a lot of innocent GOOD HEARTED people who haven't done any wrong who don't deserve hell. God is Most-Gracious and Most Merciful, and I don't see how a merciful God would do such a thing. It's one thing to punish someone for doing wrong and sinnig their whole lives, but it's a whole other for punishing someone for not being dipped in a tub of water. Now, I'm not bashing baptizm, I can respect it and I do. I baptize myself just about five times a day with something we muslims call wathu.... it is a form of cleansing we do before praying to God, which consist of cleaning our hands, arms, face, head, neck, behind the ears, and the bottom of our feet (the same way Jesus cleaned his disciples feet).. It is something that MUST be done before we pray, and if we pass gas, have sexual intercourse or use course language, we must do it again...

Peace and Blessings

 

[Snowbear]

Though by beliefs seem about as far from "mainstream" Christianity as the LDS views, I'll pipe up again ....

... there are a lot of innocent GOOD HEARTED people who haven't done any wrong who don't deserve hell....

Good-hearted I'm sure... but have you actually met or even heard of a person (other than an infant of course) who has never, ever done ANY wrong (that includes sinful thoughts, BTW)?? I seriously doubt such perfection is possible... which is why Jesus, who IS perfect and was sinless while on earth as a Man, paid the penalty for me (and you and anyone chooses to accept this). By doing so, even the most dispicable sins of my past are forgiven... as if they never even happened.

It's one thing to punish someone for doing wrong and sinnig their whole lives, but it's a whole other for punishing someone for not being dipped in a tub of water.

While baptism is important, I don't believe the dunking is a requirement for salvation. Rather, it is a public acknowledgement of my faith.