Why would the 'loving' God of mainstream Christinaity do this?

[Ezzedean]

Good-hearted I'm sure... but have you actually met or even heard of a person (other than an infant of course) who has never, ever done ANY wrong (that includes sinful thoughts, BTW)?? I seriously doubt such perfection is possible... which is why Jesus, who IS perfect and was sinless while on earth as a Man, paid the penalty for me (and you and anyone chooses to accept this). By doing so, even the most dispicable sins of my past are forgiven... as if they never even happened.

I agree with you there... there is no such thing as a perfect sinless human being after a certain age. I believe in repentance. Now, my repentance can only go so far, I can't just repent for the sake of repenting... the sincerity involved is key. Not only that, if you continue to repent for the same sin over and over and over again soon enough that sin may not be forgiven anymore, and that person will still have a true belief in Christ. I can't say who God will bestow His Mercy upon, or how many times He will do it but He knows what is truly in your heart when you repent. Every human is accountable for his or her own sins, and no one can pay for another persons sins... Jesus taught this, and that teaching contradicts what you say, because what you said was Jesus paid the penalty for you. I don't think that Jesus would contradict himself, and I most definately don't think that God would either. I don't believe that something as dispicable as rape would just be forgotten so easily. One can't just bank on the fact that Jesus died on the cross and think that they're good to go. Jesus talked about how difficult it was to get into heaven but you're making it seem like it's pretty easy to get away with sin. Something just doesn't seem right to me. Not saying you're wrong, because I very-well could be the one who is wrong here... but that's why we are here... to discuss such issues.

While baptism is important, I don't believe the dunking is a requirement for salvation. Rather, it is a public acknowledgement of my faith.

I respect that.

I'm sure we can have a very deep conversation on the purpose of Jesus and whether or not he died for our sins and I am perfectly willing to have it with you, but I'm heading to bed right now since I have to be at work for 7 am. Please feel free to send me a PM, and I will respond when I get the time to do so.

Peace and Blessings

 

[Snowbear]

I agree with you there... there is no such thing as a perfect sinless human being after a certain age. I believe in repentance. Now, my repentance can only go so far, I can't just repent for the sake of repenting... the sincerity involved is key. Not only that, if you continue to repent for the same sin over and over and over again soon enough that sin may not be forgiven anymore, and that person will still have a true belief in Christ.

But He says he will... Jesus tells us to forgive others just as He forgives us. Not seven times, but seven times 70 times.... over and over and over again.

Every human is accountable for his or her own sins, and no one can pay for another persons sins... Jesus taught this, and that teaching contradicts what you say, because what you said was Jesus paid the penalty for you. I don't think that Jesus would contradict himself, and I most definately don't think that God would either.

Yes, Jesus taught that we do not have to pay for the sins of each other. But since Jesus is special - perfect, sinless and actually God who came to earth as a Man, He was able to do this for us. It's the reason He came to earth. It was even prophesied in the book of Isaiah! It's not contradictory at all when you believe Jesus was more than "just a prophet."

One can't just bank on the fact that Jesus died on the cross and think that they're good to go. Jesus talked about how difficult it was to get into heaven but you're making it seem like it's pretty easy to get away with sin. Something just doesn't seem right to me.

One CAN bank on the fact that Jesus died on the cross to pay the wages of death for us. But don't forget that He was also resurrected. I'm not at all saying it's pretty easy to "get away with" sin. While I believe than when we repent of sin we are forgiven, I also believe that we should strive not to keep on sinning.... as was taught in the book of Romans, Chapter 6:

Romans 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin so that grace may abound?
2 Let it not be! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it?
3 Do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into His death?
4 Therefore we were buried with Him by baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father; even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been joined together in the likeness of His death, we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection;
6 knowing this, that our old man is crucified with Him in order that the body of sin might be destroyed, that from now on we should not serve sin.
7 For he who died has been justified from sin.
8 But if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him,
9 knowing that when Christ was raised from the dead, He dies no more; death no longer has dominion over Him.
10 For in that He died, He died to sin once; but in that He lives, He lives to God.
11 Likewise count yourselves also to be truly dead to sin, but alive to God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts.
13 Do not yield your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin, but yield yourselves to God, as one alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God.
14 For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under Law, but under grace.
15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under Law, but under grace? Let it not be!
16 Do you not know that to whom you yield yourselves as slaves for obedience, you are slaves to him whom you obey; whether it is of sin to death, or of obedience to righteousness.
17 But thanks be to our God that you were the slaves of sin, but you have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered.
18 Then being made free from sin, you became the slaves of righteousness.
19 I speak in the manner of men because of the weakness of your flesh; for as you have yielded your members as slaves to uncleanness, and to lawless act unto lawless act, even so now yield your members as slaves to righteousness unto holiness.
20 For when you were the slaves of sin, you were free from righteousness.
21 What fruit did you have then in those things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death.
22 But now, being made free from sin, and having become slaves to God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end everlasting life.
23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

 

[sparkyluv]

Send millions upon billions of his children to hell?

Simple answer from my perspective, he won't.

God sends no one to hell, people go to hell because they choose to stray from God. Eternal life or hell? You get a choice. You're in hell because you got what you most desired: a life apart from God.

"Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it." Matthew 7:13-14

What does that mean? It means that not everyone is going to heaven. It's a fact of life and it sucks.

 

[Katzpur]

I agree with you there... there is no such thing as a perfect sinless human being after a certain age. I believe in repentance. Now, my repentance can only go so far, I can't just repent for the sake of repenting... the sincerity involved is key. Not only that, if you continue to repent for the same sin over and over and over again soon enough that sin may not be forgiven anymore, and that person will still have a true belief in Christ. I can't say who God will bestow His Mercy upon, or how many times He will do it but He knows what is truly in your heart when you repent. Every human is accountable for his or her own sins, and no one can pay for another persons sins... Jesus taught this, and that teaching contradicts what you say, because what you said was Jesus paid the penalty for you. I don't think that Jesus would contradict himself, and I most definately don't think that God would either. I don't believe that something as dispicable as rape would just be forgotten so easily. One can't just bank on the fact that Jesus died on the cross and think that they're good to go. Jesus talked about how difficult it was to get into heaven but you're making it seem like it's pretty easy to get away with sin. Something just doesn't seem right to me. Not saying you're wrong, because I very-well could be the one who is wrong here... but that's why we are here... to discuss such issues.



I respect that.

I'm sure we can have a very deep conversation on the purpose of Jesus and whether or not he died for our sins and I am perfectly willing to have it with you, but I'm heading to bed right now since I have to be at work for 7 am. Please feel free to send me a PM, and I will respond when I get the time to do so.

Peace and Blessings

Hi, Ezzedean. Katzpur here. If Snowbear is not interested in having that particular discussion with you, I would love to!

 

[sparc872]

Dang, some people just seem to recite the same old rhetoric preached to them.

It was loving of Him to send His son for us in the first place. If it weren't for that, we'd all be going to Hell. Seems to me like he's already been amazingly merciful and loving.

So what you're saying is that love is giving someone the chance to help themselves and then turning away? My definition of love is a little different.

"Hey everybody, I killed my one and only son so you could all have life, but only a tiny small fraction of you will ever attain it. Those of you who do, must try to convert these die hard muslims that just won't change their mind. Also, if you encounter a witch or a native american, hold them to the iron until they convert or kill them because they are stuck in their beliefs too. In fact, wipe out anybody of any other religion accept for Christianity, because I am all loving." - God.

While not the exact words ascribed for him, that about sums up the view of most outsiders. A person who loves all of their children equally will give them all a chance to love him back. Not say screw you, burn in Hell to the vast majority.

Sorry if I got a little heated in that post, but that was one of the big turnoffs of Christianity for me.

 

[Snowbear]

Hi, Ezzedean. Katzpur here. If Snowbear is not interested in having that particular discussion with you, I would love to!

What ~ my reply wasn't good enough to be considered discussion??? :sad4: :sad4:

 

[Hacker]

"Hey everybody, I killed my one and only son so you could all have life, but only a tiny small fraction of you will ever attain it. Those of you who do, must try to convert these die hard muslims that just won't change their mind.

That's why I believe in reincarnation, a loving parent wouldn't do that(send their child to an eternal fire, that sounds ludicrous) no matter HOW bad the child was misbehaving. Or what if the Child was raised Catholic and wants to convert to a different religion/belief, that's like saying that it's just as equivalent as that child's parents to say well, it's time to throw you in the pit! IF God IS a divine intervention, then he needs to get on the ball fast because MANY people are going to Hell according to the Christian bible. And that is very sad. ANd I'm sure Muslims are CONDITIONED from their culture and their family, so it's very hard for them to change once one is conditioned. I'm sure there are some of the kindest most Godly Muslims who pray every single day and hardly ever sin...so I can't see God excluding anyone who believes in him and wants eternal life and makes an effort to be a good person. I think one can CHOOSE to go to hell by doing evil acts and just making that choice to avoid God.

 

[finalfrogo]

Because he says you have to believe and be baptized to be saved, that's why.

Ah yes. The killer of millions who believes and happened to be baptized goes to heaven, while the atheist, unbaptized saver of millions goes to Hell.

 

[sparkyluv]

Dang, some people just seem to recite the same old rhetoric preached to them.



So what you're saying is that love is giving someone the chance to help themselves and then turning away? My definition of love is a little different.

"Hey everybody, I killed my one and only son so you could all have life, but only a tiny small fraction of you will ever attain it. Those of you who do, must try to convert these die hard muslims that just won't change their mind. Also, if you encounter a witch or a native american, hold them to the iron until they convert or kill them because they are stuck in their beliefs too. In fact, wipe out anybody of any other religion accept for Christianity, because I am all loving." - God.

While not the exact words ascribed for him, that about sums up the view of most outsiders. A person who loves all of their children equally will give them all a chance to love him back. Not say screw you, burn in Hell to the vast majority.

Sorry if I got a little heated in that post, but that was one of the big turnoffs of Christianity for me.

Everyone is given a chance. Jesus died so that EVERYONE would have a chance to have eternal life. Not everyone will obtain it because people choose not to. The option is there, people just choose to ignore it.

 

[Ody]

Everyone is given a chance. Jesus died so that EVERYONE would have a chance to have eternal life. Not everyone will obtain it because people choose not to. The option is there, people just choose to ignore it.

Thats hilarious, because if I stray from my love of the IPU, he might punish me!

 

[Hacker]

Everyone is given a chance.

Not EVERYONE, some people never even heard of Jesus in other countries throughout time. But yah, mostly everyone.

 

[Ezzedean]

But since Jesus is special - perfect, sinless and actually God who came to earth as a Man, He was able to do this for us. It's the reason He came to earth. It was even prophesied in the book of Isaiah! It's not contradictory at all when you believe Jesus was more than "just a prophet."

Before I say what I say, I have to let you know that I respect your perception of who Jesus was, but it is very arguable for many reasons.

1. God does not have to come in human form to understand man.

2. God is not weak, and Jesus showed weakness.

3. God does not feel pain, and Jesus felt pain.

4. God is the Creator, He cannot be created (like Jesus was).

5. God doesn't feel hunger like Jesus did.

6. God does not pee or pooh like a human being, and I'm sure Jesus did.

7. God does not have to ask anyone for help, and Jesus did.

8. God makes it very clear not to make any partners with Him, and stresses His oneness....Jesus himself stressed the Oneness of God and how not to have partners with God. I believe Jesus has been made as a partner to God by the Christian faith, and this is against the first commandment. Now they say I don't understand, because it is the three which make one, but you are taking away from the oneness with the three you speak of because you have split God into three.

9. In Deuteronoymy 18 many Christians I have spoken to on religious forums say that the prophecy is speaking of Jesus.... if that is the case Jesus is a mere prophet, the prophecy states clearly that it will be a prophet who comes, not the son of God and definately not God in human form.

Just a few to get started... sorry I replied soo late.... been busy, just got home right now and I am writing this before I go to bed. So goodnight, and again feel free to PM me, because I can't reply on the actual forum as often as you may like at this point in time.

Peace and Blessings

 

[Katzpur]

Everyone is given a chance. Jesus died so that EVERYONE would have a chance to have eternal life. Not everyone will obtain it because people choose not to. The option is there, people just choose to ignore it.

Would you explain please how everyone gets a chance? I'm thinking of people who...

(1) llved during the several millenia before Jesus
(2) lived after Jesus in parts of the world where Christianity did not exist (let's say 4th century China, for example)
(3) live today in countries where even studying Christianity is punishable by death.

I have my own beliefs concerning these people, and most everybody on this forum who's at all interested had already heard me explain them. But I am curious as to what you believe the fate of these people to be.

Also, while we're at it, why do you think God chose to make His Son's gospel available to you but not to them? How does that make you feel?

 

[sparc872]

Would you explain please how everyone gets a chance? I'm thinking of people who...

(1) llved during the several millenia before Jesus
(2) lived after Jesus in parts of the world where Christianity did not exist (let's say 4th century China, for example)
(3) live today in countries where even studying Christianity is punishable by death.

I have my own beliefs concerning these people, and most everybody on this forum who's at all interested had already heard me explain them. But I am curious as to what you believe the fate of these people to be.

Also, while we're at it, why do you think God chose to make His Son's gospel available to you but not to them? How does that make you feel?

I too would like to know how you explain these. It is clear to me and many others that everyone is not given a chance. It may appear as so from your viewpoint, especially if you live in a neighborhood of primarily Christians, but there are many throughout the world that have not heard of Jesus, let alone the gospel.

Everyone is given a chance. Jesus died so that EVERYONE would have a chance to have eternal life. Not everyone will obtain it because people choose not to. The option is there, people just choose to ignore it.

Everyone is NOT given a chance to hear of Jesus and accept his 'free gift' So, in light of this, something must be wrong with your understanding of the Bible, the Bible itself, or both.

 

[sparkyluv]

Would you explain please how everyone gets a chance? I'm thinking of people who...

(1) llved during the several millenia before Jesus
(2) lived after Jesus in parts of the world where Christianity did not exist (let's say 4th century China, for example)
(3) live today in countries where even studying Christianity is punishable by death.

I have my own beliefs concerning these people, and most everybody on this forum who's at all interested had already heard me explain them. But I am curious as to what you believe the fate of these people to be.

Also, while we're at it, why do you think God chose to make His Son's gospel available to you but not to them? How does that make you feel?

Whether they hear it or not or have heard it or not is beside the point. The point is that everyone has a chance to accept this gift. It's not open to certain people, it's open to anyone who is willing to hear it and that includes countries where it's not allowed. Some people don't know they have a chance, but that doesn't mean God has excluded them. That's what missionaries are for. I don't know why God made the gospel available to me because I don't question why. All I know is he did through someone else and now it's my turn to share. God uses people to be laborers around the world to share his gospel, so that people can have eternal salvation.

Option (a) is a poor example seeing as how they lived prior to Jesus.

What are the fates of those who don't accept Jesus? I've said it before and I'll say it again: Those who do not or have not accepted Jesus Christ as their Lord and personal savior do not go to heaven. That's just how it is.

 

[Sasa]

Would you explain please how everyone gets a chance? I'm thinking of people who...

(1) llved during the several millenia before Jesus
(2) lived after Jesus in parts of the world where Christianity did not exist (let's say 4th century China, for example)
(3) live today in countries where even studying Christianity is punishable by death.

In cases such as those listed above, how could God justify not giving you a chance to learn His Sovereign Will at transition? The answer is that it's our hearts that are read and by which we are judged - not our religious beliefs - not whether or not we've been given the opportunity to know Jesus via the Scriptures. If those people in the situations in which they simply don't know or haven't been exposed have a humble heart, that is the only requirement for Christ's Salvation. Because once they are with Christ, he knows their humble hearts will accept him. "Above all else safeguard your heart, for it is the source of life." Proverbs 4:23

 

[Snowbear]

Before I say what I say, I have to let you know that I respect your perception of who Jesus was...

I appreciate that. Thank you.
I also respect your perception, but obviously disagree for several reasons

1. God does not have to come in human form to understand man.

You are absolutely correct on that (IMO ) But I believe that God came in human form so humankind could understand HIM, not the other way around.

2. God is not weak, and Jesus showed weakness.

No God is not weak. By willingly letting himself be scourged, humiliated and crucified, I think He showed tremendous strenth!

3. God does not feel pain, and Jesus felt pain.

4. God is the Creator, He cannot be created (like Jesus was).

5. God doesn't feel hunger like Jesus did.

6. God does not pee or pooh like a human being, and I'm sure Jesus did.

Many Christians (including me) believe that Jesus is God. We also He believe is also fully human. That's why He was born to a woman as a baby. Grew up. It's why He experienced human emotions, pains, temptations, hunger, thirst, and of course, bodily functions, etc...

7. God does not have to ask anyone for help, and Jesus did.

Jesus prayed to God, yes. Though He lamented what was to come, He also achnowledged that He needed to fulfill the Father's will.

8. God makes it very clear not to make any partners with Him, and stresses His oneness....Jesus himself stressed the Oneness of God and how not to have partners with God. I believe Jesus has been made as a partner to God by the Christian faith, and this is against the first commandment. Now they say I don't understand, because it is the three which make one, but you are taking away from the oneness with the three you speak of because you have split God into three.

Your beliefs of what Christians believe is not what I believe. While the discussion of the Trinity is for another thread, I will point out that I do not split God into 3, but believe that the Father, Son (Jesus) and the Holy Spirit (Ghost) are 3 distinct, individual forms of one God.

9. In Deuteronoymy 18 many Christians I have spoken to on religious forums say that the prophecy is speaking of Jesus.... if that is the case Jesus is a mere prophet, the prophecy states clearly that it will be a prophet who comes, not the son of God and definately not God in human form.

Yes, Deuteronomy speaks of Jesus as a Prophet. But it certainly does not limit Him to being just a Prophet. Why can't the Son of God be a Prophet as well as a Savior?

... sorry I replied soo late.... been busy, just got home right now and I am writing this before I go to bed. So goodnight, and again feel free to PM me, because I can't reply on the actual forum as often as you may like at this point in time.

No problem. I can wait. I don't mind waiting for you to be able to reply on the actual forum either.... I'm sure others besides me are interested in your views as much as I am

G'night

 

[Bishka]

In cases such as those listed above, how could God justify not giving you a chance to learn His Sovereign Will at transition? The answer is that it's our hearts that are read and by which we are judged - not our religious beliefs - not whether or not we've been given the opportunity to know Jesus via the Scriptures. If those people in the situations in which they simply don't know or haven't been exposed have a humble heart, that is the only requirement for Christ's Salvation. Because once they are with Christ, he knows their humble hearts will accept him. "Above all else safeguard your heart, for it is the source of life." Proverbs 4:23

And if they don't understand this, and they were brought up in a terroististic Muslim home? And they were bred to be mean, violent and hate others? And with their heart that's what they truly believe?

 

[Sasa]

And if they don't understand this, and they were brought up in a terroististic Muslim home? And they were bred to be mean, violent and hate others? And with their heart that's what they truly believe?

The Scriptures wouldn't speak so much of matters of the heart if it wasn't important. If their hearts are negative, then that's what they'll be judged on. It's possible to be completely surrounded by mean, violent hateful people and still have a good heart. But, if those mean, violent and hateful actions are truly believed in a person's heart, then they won't be welcomed into Christ's Kingdom.

“A good man produces good out of the good storeroom of his heart. An evil man produces evil out of the evil storeroom, for his mouth speaks from the overflow of the heart.” Luke 6:45

 

[Katzpur]

Whether they hear it or not or have heard it or not is beside the point. The point is that everyone has a chance to accept this gift.

And I suppose you don't see the contradiction here? Everyone has a chance to accept something which they are unaware exists. Would you mind explaining how that works?

Option (a) is a poor example seeing as how they lived prior to Jesus.

What do you mean? It couldn't possibly be a more perfect example! What is going to happen to people who lived before Jesus Christ? There were millions of them. Are you just going to pretend they didn't exist? Do you think God is just going to pretend they didn't even exist?

What are the fates of those who don't accept Jesus? I've said it before and I'll say it again: Those who do not or have not accepted Jesus Christ as their Lord and personal savior do not go to heaven. That's just how it is.

I think I would have had more respect for your opinion when you were an athiest.