wife beating in quran

[Sahar]

Sahar, I understand what you are saying...as a Muslim woman, I just have a very difficult time understanding why an all-knowing God would ever allow a stronger person (a man) the liberty to physically beat a weaker person (the wife) for ANY reason, let alone to "obey"? Does He believe men will be able to show restraint with a "light" beating? Why would beating be necessary to get any adult to obey another? It's a very disturbing verse, and highly controversial indeed. I guess we try and make it as unpleasant as possible in our own minds so we can sleep at night.

I understand...but also the solution is not to deny the text in front of us and pretend meanings that are not there. Give me a different meaning, but this must be authentic from the linguistic point of view, at the very least.
It's not accepted, for example, to say "Ahmed is dead" means Ahmed is only sick because in my belief, I don't accept that Ahmed can be dead. We have to accept the Qur'anic text as it's. "Obey" is mentioned very clearly in the Ayah as an example. And to me as a Muslim, I can't just run after invalid claims.

I can be honest with myself and say I don't accept it which will raise questions about my belief in the Qur'an as divine or... on the other hand, I will accept it. And accepting it doesn't mean that there are no restraints to that order. For example, you asked if men would be able to restrain themselves, let's not forget that if they didn't, from an Islamic legal view they would deserve penalties as criminals. I mean we have also Islamic texts that restrain it.

Absolutely, there is the third status of being confused.

We can move back and forth over the interpretation and the Fiqh rules extracted from this Ayah and we can also talk about the relevant Hadiths but most importantly we shouldn't deceive ourselves.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

With your permission:

With all this he stipulated in his sermon on the occasion of the Farewell Pilgrimage, shortly before his death, that beating should be resorted to only if the wife "has become guilty, in an obvious manner, of immoral conduct", and that it should be done "in such a way as not to cause pain (ghayr mubarrih)"; authentic Tradition to this effect are found in Muslim, Tirmidhi, Abu Da'ud, Nasa'i and Ibn Majah. On the basis of these Traditions, all the authorities stress that this "beating", if resorted to at all, should be more or less symbolic -- "with a toothbrush, or some such thing" (Tabari, quoting the views of scholars pf the earliest times), or even "with a folded handkerchief" (Razi); and some of the greatest Muslim scholars (e.g., Ash-Shafi'i) are of the opinion that it is just barely permissible, and should preferably be avoided: and they justify this opinion by the Prophet's personal feelings with regard to this problem.

- The Message of THE QUR'AN, translated and explained by Muhammad Adas; Page 127, note 45

As I suggested above: an apparent effort to mitigate rather than promote spousal abuse.

 

[beenie]

Thank you, Jay.

I guess I have trouble with this whole "obedience" thing. Why must one spouse (always the woman) have to "obey" her spouse? What if he's unreasonable? What happened to partnership?

How often, in reality, are men punished for beating their wives in Islamic societies? Surely an all-knowing God knows how society will turn out...I just don't get it. Sorry.

 

[ohhcuppycakee]

Now, there's a statement loaded with irony.

Oh, whatever. I should have just said spelling. The is/are thing is something many native speakers of English miss. I just want to be able to read what this guy is saying without getting too distracted with his spelling mistakes. Spelling correctly takes no effort since most browsers have spell check.

 

[Badran]

I know you're not, Badran.
I happen to agree with you that there are different definitions of this word, in addition to so many in Arabic.

I, for one, want to hear all about your position on this issue. Personally I think you have a wonderful perspective.

Thank you. Here are a couple of links that seem to explain the issue a little bit regarding the other possible interpretations, other than the more common one (though some actually include it in to give a better perspective). I don't necessarily agree with everything said in there though, but they offer a lot from what i'm trying to say, and i'm too lazy to make a post in attempt to explain the issue in detail. Some of them consider that the man does have some level of authority, though, while maintaining that the verse doesn't mean beat. Like i said, i'm offering various possible interpretations:

Women in Islam

Quran-Islam.org - True Islam

Tafseer of Surah an-Nisa, Ayah 34

In addition, while checking in websites that seemed to include articles accepting the more common interpretation, i also found an article containing opinions that acknowledge those other opinions, or that there is certainly a possibility for the verse to have been misinterpreted:

Moreover,Sheikh Mohamed El-Moctar El-Shinqiti, director of the Islamic Center of South Plains, Lubbock, Texas, added,
First of all, I would like to state that it is not allowed for the husband to physically abuse his wife in the first place. The verse in surat An-Nisaa’ has been greatly misunderstood and there are many authentic hadiths prohibiting physical abuse in unequivocal terms. Therefore, beating is not an option in the first place.

skipping an unrelated paragraph:

Having said that, I must state that Islam offers us many solutions to resolve family conflicts so that we do not have to resort to barbaric means that involve physical abuse. These solutions include, but are not limited to, reconciliation and arbitration. If these peaceful means are exhausted and there is no harmony in the family, we must know that Islam allows divorce. This is because peaceful separation is better in the eyes of Islam than a dysfunctional marriage.

Husband-Beating Fatwas: Shaking the Family Unit? - Marital relationships - counsels - OnIslam.net

Its possible though he has in mind the interpretation that states its only a 'symbolic beating', but for that to be the case i think he would have to hold a more defined view on that, like those who look at it metaphorically, since he stated that beating in general is not an option. Thus, any kind of beating would be included in his opinion.

In any case, what i'm trying to convey is, again, there are multiple interpretations around for people to view and determine for themselves which makes more sense. The fact that there are multiple possibilities is acknowledged by many and different sorts of scholars, not just one supposed type of scholars. Suggesting that there is only one possible interpretation is inaccurate. Whether its due to the number of translations made around this interpretation, or for any other reason.

I should clarify what I meant. What I'm saying is, that there are many Muslims who will take the words of scholars at face value, and won't go the extra mile to research and see for themselves that there are other interpretations. It's "easier" to let others do the work, even if it means accepting something that clearly seems to contradict the spirit of the Qur'an.

Those who research these controversial issues, are, in essence, helping us realize that there ARE other views about this verse...and I'm truly thankful for that.

I agree, and again, thank you.

 

[Peace]

I understand...but also the solution is not to deny the text in front of us and pretend meanings that are not there. Give me a different meaning, but this must be authentic from the linguistic point of view, at the very least.
It's not accepted, for example, to say "Ahmed is dead" means Ahmed is only sick because in my belief, I don't accept that Ahmed can be dead. We have to accept the Qur'anic text as it's. "Obey" is mentioned very clearly in the Ayah as an example. And to me as a Muslim, I can't just run after invalid claims.

I can be honest with myself and say I don't accept it which will raise questions about my belief in the Qur'an as divine or... on the other hand, I will accept it. And accepting it doesn't mean that there are no restraints to that order. For example, you asked if men would be able to restrain themselves, let's not forget that if they didn't, from an Islamic legal view they would deserve penalties as criminals. I mean we have also Islamic texts that restrain it.

Absolutely, there is the third status of being confused.

We can move back and forth over the interpretation and the Fiqh rules extracted from this Ayah and we can also talk about the relevant Hadiths but most importantly we shouldn't deceive ourselves.

May Allah bless you and strenghten your and our faith and keep us firm on the right path!

 

[Peace]

With your permission:

Quote:
With all this he stipulated in his sermon on the occasion of the Farewell Pilgrimage, shortly before his death, that beating should be resorted to only if the wife "has become guilty, in an obvious manner, of immoral conduct", and that it should be done "in such a way as not to cause pain (ghayr mubarrih)"; authentic Tradition to this effect are found in Muslim, Tirmidhi, Abu Da'ud, Nasa'i and Ibn Majah. On the basis of these Traditions, all the authorities stress that this "beating", if resorted to at all, should be more or less symbolic -- "with a toothbrush, or some such thing" (Tabari, quoting the views of scholars pf the earliest times), or even "with a folded handkerchief" (Razi); and some of the greatest Muslim scholars (e.g., Ash-Shafi'i) are of the opinion that it is just barely permissible, and should preferably be avoided: and they justify this opinion by the Prophet's personal feelings with regard to this problem.

- The Message of THE QUR'AN, translated and explained by Muhammad Adas; Page 127, note 45

As I suggested above: an apparent effort to mitigate rather than promote spousal abuse.

Thanks Jay for sharing that. I do totally agree with the above. It's Muhammad Asad by way not Adas, I know it's just a typo

 

[asa120]

Oh, whatever. I should have just said spelling. The is/are thing is something many native speakers of English miss. I just want to be able to read what this guy is saying without getting too distracted with his spelling mistakes. Spelling correctly takes no effort since most browsers have spell check.

again be nice thise is my 3rd language and i m not like you you just need to learn one language
i speak arabic frensh and inglish and frensh is our second language not ingish
and be nice you re very insulting it s e shame that speak in thise way and you are e muslim ,what is that????
i would accept it from other ppl but from e muslim ,,,,,

 

[asa120]

as for bardan speak kindly and be nice i dont have anny problemes with you it s just you re not e e scolar that s all
i repeat it to you, i m not fighting and debating you, we are not debating islam
now i m telling just what the scholars say aboute thise verses now
if you have e probleme accepting thise verses than thise youre probleme
but just dont try to intereprte it as you wont ,it s not for you, it s up to scolars

i belive to any one call him self e muslim he must sumiit and surronder to the almighty allah
now you have 2 verses and e story and e reason for the holy verses to came down and i told you we studie it
do you wont thise verses to apply to you i know it in arabic and i canot translate it
but it means thy who belive in some of the book and desbelive in some thy will have e alwful doom
the holy coran have e devine wisdom why should we analyse it with our moral values
i m againste beating the wife but at the same time i dont know better than the almighty allah
it s shame that some muslims dont accept the rulling of the almighty allah when he choose us and he give us e scripture and he promise us of the protection and we know we see the effect on the other scripture that dont have the protection of the almighty allah look at the the other abrahimque religion and thank youre maker for islam and the holy quran

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Thanks Jay for sharing that. I do totally agree with the above. It's Muhammad Asad by way not Adas, I know it's just a typo

Sorry, my fingers often work sdrawkcab. Nevertheless, I really appreciate the book.

 

[ohhcuppycakee]

again be nice thise is my 3rd language and i m not like you you just need to learn one language
i speak arabic frensh and inglish and frensh is our second language not ingish
and be nice you re very insulting it s e shame that speak in thise way and you are e muslim ,what is that????
i would accept it from other ppl but from e muslim ,,,,,

You should just use spell check, okay? I'm telling you because it distracts from your actual message.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Thank you, Jay.

I guess I have trouble with this whole "obedience" thing. Why must one spouse (always the woman) have to "obey" her spouse? What if he's unreasonable? What happened to partnership?

How often, in reality, are men punished for beating their wives in Islamic societies? Surely an all-knowing God knows how society will turn out...I just don't get it. Sorry.

Agreed.

Forgive me, but I take the Qur'an (and the Torah) as the work of man -- perhaps inspired, but a cultural product nonetheless. Neither text fully transcends its roots. What is important to me is the extent to they seek to challenge or mitigate the backward and destructive norms of those early societies, thereby building a bridge to increasingly egalitarian society.

I fully understand that this view would be totally rejected by many, many Muslims and a good number of Jews.

 

[beenie]

Thank you. Here are a couple of links that seem to explain the issue a little bit regarding the other possible interpretations, other than the more common one (though some actually include it in to give a better perspective). I don't necessarily agree with everything said in there though, but they offer a lot from what i'm trying to say, and i'm too lazy to make a post in attempt to explain the issue in detail. Some of them consider that the man does have some level of authority, though, while maintaining that the verse doesn't mean beat. Like i said, i'm offering various possible interpretations:

Women in Islam

Quran-Islam.org - True Islam

Tafseer of Surah an-Nisa, Ayah 34

In addition, while checking in websites that seemed to include articles accepting the more common interpretation, i also found an article containing opinions that acknowledge those other opinions, or that there is certainly a possibility for the verse to have been misinterpreted:



skipping an unrelated paragraph:



Husband-Beating Fatwas: Shaking the Family Unit? - Marital relationships - counsels - OnIslam.net

Its possible though he has in mind the interpretation that states its only a 'symbolic beating', but for that to be the case i think he would have to hold a more defined view on that, like those who look at it metaphorically, since he stated that beating in general is not an option. Thus, any kind of beating would be included in his opinion.

In any case, what i'm trying to convey is, again, there are multiple interpretations around for people to view and determine for themselves which makes more sense. The fact that there are multiple possibilities is acknowledged by many and different sorts of scholars, not just one supposed type of scholars. Suggesting that there is only one possible interpretation is inaccurate. Whether its due to the number of translations made around this interpretation, or for any other reason.



I agree, and again, thank you.

Awesome, I'll take a look at those articles.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

Sorry. Anything I can do to help? How's about you let me get you and your husband a nice bottle of Kosher (and non-Mevushal) wine for sukkot?

Is there such a thing as non Kosher wine.? How do you tell them apart?

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Is there such a thing as non Kosher wine?

Yes.

How do you tell them apart?

The Hechsher.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

Yes.


The Hechsher.

I Never knew that ... My friends in my younger days could not have been Orthodox or were very lax indeed... I suspect that in the 50's and 60's Love was not the only sin that was free.

Not that any Jewish friend has ever turned down a glass of wine. And as far as I know I have never tasted kosher wine, or had it to offer.

 

[GURSIKH]

I think before trying to understand and interpret that Ayah, which is indeed controversial, we must be honest with ourselves and others. Trying to "invent" a new meaning in the Arabic language and that suddenly we discovered in the 20ths century that to "yadreb (beat) someone" means "ignore him/her", is intellectual dishonesty. I would take my hat off to the makers of that claim if they said outright that they don't accept that Qur'anic verse.

Because I am an ignorant person, I am eager to be enlightened by those who claim that it means "ignore or separate between them", why not to bring a similar usage from the Holy Qur'an that would give that meaning and with the exact grammatical structure. "Them" that refers to women in the Ayah is the object and it was not preceded by a preposition. I need the same phrasal structure that would give the same meaning from the Qur'an or even from an Arabic lexicon and by then I would say amen to that claim.

And from what I have seen until now, my request wasn't granted...I saw how such claim is justified, and was disappointed by the grammatical and linguistic failure....it doesn't help to say that the verb "yadreb" was used in the Qur'an multiple times with different meanings....and surprisingly it gives different meanings because it's used in different linguistic structures.

If we accepted the meaning "separate from them", what does it mean exactly?

Moreover, if we accepted that, why should women obey their husbands? Of course, in the "cool" and "progressive" (or let me say twisted) translations there is no mention of "obey"!! Anyway, we would find these kind of misguiding translations in the so called "Qur'an alone" people/"progressive Muslims" literature.

There must be honesty when dealing with the Qur'anic text, otherwise there is no point of discussing anything.

Salute to your courage Sahar !

 

[GURSIKH]

Thank you. Here are a couple of links that seem to explain the issue a little bit regarding the other possible interpretations, other than the more common one (though some actually include it in to give a better perspective). I don't necessarily agree with everything said in there though, but they offer a lot from what i'm trying to say, and i'm too lazy to make a post in attempt to explain the issue in detail. Some of them consider that the man does have some level of authority, though, while maintaining that the verse doesn't mean beat. Like i said, i'm offering various possible interpretations:

Women in Islam

Quran-Islam.org - True Islam

Tafseer of Surah an-Nisa, Ayah 34

Hi Badran ,

links you provided are ridiculous ,

Dr. Jamal Badawi (St. Mary's University, Nova Scotia) is of the opinion these (three stages) are necessary steps prior to divorce. Instead of a man saying, "I divorce you" three times in a row, he should follow this procedure before acting hastily and thereby doing something unwise and displeasing to Allah. The first step would be as mentioned above, to give her a "good talking to" and then if she continued in such unpleasing behavior, to leave the bed (not have intercourse with her) for a period of time and then finally, the last straw would be to "tap" her on the arm with a "tooth stick"

from where came the "tooth stick " ?

First, the beating done within the limits defined by the Qur'an may indeed bring the husband and wife to some kind of understanding. This is not because of the pain involved, which in any case cannot be too much if the guidance in the Qur'an and Hadith are to be observed. Rather, the husband and wife may come closer together after beating because of the emotions involved.

 

[waitasec]

'Scourge them' appears awful no doubt.

But if one considers the work given to women, the whole complexion will change. Women are suppossed to do what Allah does -- protect the unseen. It is men who fight to do better than other. But as per Quran, the function of women is at par with what Allah does.

In my opinion, this is a deep verse.

if it's unseen how do you know it's being protected or not?

 

[waitasec]

Surat An-Nisa' [4:34] - The Holy Qur'an - ?????? ??????

how can one justify beating wife for not being obedient to man

as far as i'm concerned your question hasn't been tended to.


and what if her husband is a jerk?