wife beating in quran

[Badran]

Hi Badran

Hi

links you provided are ridiculous

Not really. Your knowledge on the subject on the other hand, sure sucks. I will explain why in the next part.

from where came the "tooth stick " ?

Since this is your objection, that simply demonstrates that you know little to nothing on the subject, and that you're not really putting a great effort to understand what has been posted so far.

The tooth stick part is from a Hadith, and the scholar you quoted was of the opinion that husbands can beat their wives. This is not a controversial part, almost any link will acknowledge this part.

Since, like i said, its not actually related to the opinion which says that the verse doesn't mean beat.

 

[Badran]

as for bardan speak kindly and be nice i dont have anny problemes with you it s just you re not e e scolar that s all
i repeat it to you, i m not fighting and debating you, we are not debating islam

I'm not fighting either

What i have a problem with however is this:

now i m telling just what the scholars say aboute thise verses now
if you have e probleme accepting thise verses than thise youre probleme
but just dont try to intereprte it as you wont ,it s not for you, it s up to scolars

Like i told you before, thats just simply not the case, i'm not doing that, and its not "my" interpretation. There is nothing really i can do to show you that which i haven't already done. Try to read my previous posts better.

 

[FreeTHinker4eva]

Yeah. Quaranexplorer.com translates that same verse as this:

Rebellion instead of arrogance. scourge instead of strike.
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scourge is striking:
2. A means of inflicting severe suffering, vengeance, or punishment.
3. A whip used to inflict punishment.
tr.v. scourged, scourg·ing, scourg·es 1. To afflict with severe or widespread suffering and devastation; ravage.
2. To chastise severely; excoriate.
3. To flog.

THis is the translation I have heard also. The justification:Oh, we only hit them gently- like hitting with a flyswatter funny-I notice how you have a fly swatter too
Hitting is just-wrong- no trust=no relationship worth having if you are not safe in your own home-then where? Islam is not alone in this-Women simply do not fare well in patriarchal religions; organized religions-Jesus treated women equally to the astonishment of his Apostles-for shame neither Paul nor Thomas nor the churches, nor the mosques, nor those who write the Hadiths or revise the bibles-have yet to do the same-
Whenever you place one human over another-potential for abuse of power exists-
~~peace~~

 

[waitasec]

for what it's worth,
it seems as though these passages exist because of the notion that people are not to be trusted with one another...which i think is hogwash...
it's passages like these that keep people from seeing the forrest for the trees. it's obvious that a husband should take care of his wife just as she is to take care of him..."obey your husband", gives the husband too much power

 

[FreeTHinker4eva]

Really?

Well i'm a Muslim who reads it in Arabic and translates it into something else. So do other Muslim scholars. What does that mean?

Let me help you out and tell you what it means. It means that the word in Arabic has to have at least more than one usage.

The fact of the matter is, actually, that it has many usages in Arabic, and can be translated into many words in English.

Well several Muslim men have told me they can hit a woman as long as it doesn't leave a mark-
The fact that Islamic countries have as law that a woman can be stoned to death-reason enough to walk far away from Islam. Islam is an old testament religion whose Teachers act as if we still are living in the stone age. Too bad, because Muslims sense of community is something we can all learn from -these archaic and discriminatory teachings will never cease to plague this religion until they are dropped. No God would treat women less equally than men- I hear Jinn laughing

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Well several Muslim men have told me they can hit a woman as long as it doesn't leave a mark-

And some have told you otherwise. You are choosing to simply dismiss the latter.

 

[waitasec]

Well several Muslim men have told me they can hit a woman

And some have told you otherwise. You are choosing to simply dismiss the latter.

but where do they get that idea from?

 

[ohhcuppycakee]

links you provided are ridiculous ,

from where came the "tooth stick " ?

How are those links at all ridiculous?

And, yes, it is called a miswak or siwak. You have probably seen it before. It is made out of a twig off off of an arak tree. It is used all over the Islamic world because cleaning teeth with miswak is a sunnah of the Prophet (SAWS).

 

[ohhcuppycakee]

scourge is striking:
2. A means of inflicting severe suffering, vengeance, or punishment.
3. A whip used to inflict punishment.
tr.v. scourged, scourg·ing, scourg·es 1. To afflict with severe or widespread suffering and devastation; ravage.
2. To chastise severely; excoriate.
3. To flog.

THis is the translation I have heard also. The justification:Oh, we only hit them gently- like hitting with a flyswatter funny-I notice how you have a fly swatter too
Hitting is just-wrong- no trust=no relationship worth having if you are not safe in your own home-then where? Islam is not alone in this-Women simply do not fare well in patriarchal religions; organized religions-Jesus treated women equally to the astonishment of his Apostles-for shame neither Paul nor Thomas nor the churches, nor the mosques, nor those who write the Hadiths or revise the bibles-have yet to do the same-
Whenever you place one human over another-potential for abuse of power exists-
~~peace~~

I am just going to mention something. Though hitting your wife with a miswak lightly as last resort is permissible in Islam, it is the sunnah of the Prophet (SAWS) to not use this method. The Prophet (SAWS) never laid a hand or even raised his voice on any of his wives. He was incredibly patient with them. Further, I know in Sunni Islam, Imam Shafi says it is inadvisable and should be avoided at all costs.

 

[waitasec]

I am just going to mention something. Though hitting your wife with a miswak lightly as last resort is permissible in Islam, it is the sunnah of the Prophet (SAWS) to not use this method. The Prophet (SAWS) never laid a hand or even raised his voice on any of his wives. He was incredibly patient with them. Further, I know in Sunni Islam, Imam Shafi says it is inadvisable and should be avoided at all costs.

that is demeaning...
no one should be in the position to demean anyone, are wives to be trained?

people have to understand that they can't get their way all the time...
what about coming to an agreement and what if the husband is a jerk?

as i said before, this gives too much power to the male counter part...

 

[GURSIKH]

Mr A- ManESL is most respected Muslim member on forum for me ,i just want to hear from him on this issue .

 

[atanu]

For Badran and Ssainhu

I should not enter into discussion of a scriptural matter that is not my own. However, in general, scripture is divine and not just secular. In this case, one will not arrive at the beating part, if one agreed to the first part of the scripture.

Pickthal 34: Men are in charge of women, because Allah hath made the one of them to excel the other, and because they spend of their property (for the support of women). So good women are the obedient, guarding in secret that which Allah hath guarded. As for those from whom ye fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and scourge them. Then if they obey you, seek not a way against them. Lo! Allah is ever High, Exalted, Great.


The question of beating etc. arise only when one discards the first part and sees the versepurely from the secular point of view. Who will beat one's daughter or one' wife or any female for that matter, if one first agrees that they are assigned the function that Allah Himself does, i.e. guarding the unseen.

Any amount of scholarly discussion of whether the beating is to take place by a whip or by a flower cannot be resolved.

I may be pardoned and this may be deleted if this is inappropriate to general Muslim view.

 

[Mark2020]

I've seen alternative translations... where the word means 'to separate' from your wives if they are disobedient.

"The men are to support the women with what God has bestowed upon them over one another and for what they spend of their money. The upright females are dutiful; keeping private the personal matters for what God keeps watch over. As for those females from whom you fear desertion, then you shall advise them, and abandon them in the bedchamber, and separate from them. If they respond to you, then do not seek a way over them; God is Most High, Great."

http://free-minds.org/quran/PM/4

I think that this translation is more accurate:
Surat An-Nisa' [4:34] - The Holy Qur'an - ?????? ??????
"strike them"

The verb اضرب simply means "beat/strike" when the object is human. It doesn't mean "separate from".

Arabic tafsears could be found here:
http://quran.al-islam.com/Page.aspx?pageid=221&BookID=11&Page=602
ÊÝÓíÑ ÇÈä ßËíÑ
ÊÝÓíÑ ÇáØÈÑí

and they say: beat them but not severely without breaking bones
"أن تضرب ضربا غير مبرح، ولا تكسر لها عظما"

 

[beenie]

I think that this translation is more accurate:
Surat An-Nisa' [4:34] - The Holy Qur'an - ?????? ??????
"strike them"

The verb اضرب simply means "beat/strike" when the object is human. It doesn't mean "separate from".

Arabic tafsears could be found here:
http://quran.al-islam.com/Page.aspx?pageid=221&BookID=11&Page=602
ÊÝÓíÑ ÇÈä ßËíÑ
ÊÝÓíÑ ÇáØÈÑí

and they say: beat them but not severely without breaking bones
"أن تضرب ضربا غير مبرح، ولا تكسر لها عظما"

Well, I'm glad that's what you "think", but I happen to disagree with you.

Men should never hit women. Period.

 

[Mark2020]

Well, I'm glad that's what you "think", but I happen to disagree with you.

That's what I believe based on my knowledge of Arabic language.

Again:
The verb اضرب simply means "beat/strike" when the object is human. It doesn't mean "separate from".

Try the stem of the verb (ضر&#1576 in google translation,
or even try the word used (اضربوه&#1606.

I've given sites with Arabic tafsears and showed what they say.

Here are some Arabic-English dictionaries:
http://dictionary.sakhr.com/
Arabic English - Dictionary-????? ???? ???????

This is from Lane's Lexicon:
Dad
Check this file:
http://www.studyquran.org/LaneLexicon/Volume5/00000062.pdf

The stem is ضرب to the lower right of the pdf file.
The form of the verb is ضَرَبَ which is the first one given. You'll see that the meaning is "beat, struck, smote, or hit,"

The verb اضرب is the imperative form of ضَرَبَ .

Note that the website contains the meanings of all forms together, but you have to check the pdf to see the meaning of each form.

Men should never hit women. Period.

I agree, but this is not what the verse says.

 

[beenie]

Well, you can believe what you want, I choose (because I can) to believe the articles that Badran cited are true, as does my husband and any other male I care about.

 

[Badran]

For Badran and Ssainhu

I should not enter into discussion of a scriptural matter that is not my own.

I may be pardoned and this may be deleted if this is inappropriate to general Muslim view.

Thats more than fine

Feel free.

However, in general, scripture is divine and not just secular. In this case, one will not arrive at the beating part, if one agreed to the first part of the scripture.

Pickthal 34: Men are in charge of women, because Allah hath made the one of them to excel the other, and because they spend of their property (for the support of women). So good women are the obedient, guarding in secret that which Allah hath guarded. As for those from whom ye fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and scourge them. Then if they obey you, seek not a way against them. Lo! Allah is ever High, Exalted, Great.


The question of beating etc. arise only when one discards the first part and sees the versepurely from the secular point of view. Who will beat one's daughter or one' wife or any female for that matter, if one first agrees that they are assigned the function that Allah Himself does, i.e. guarding the unseen.

Any amount of scholarly discussion of whether the beating is to take place by a whip or by a flower cannot be resolved.

I'm not sure if i understand what you're saying, but if i do, the answer will be that whatever the verse is saying we should do, is to be done when women fail to do so.

 

[Badran]

I think that this translation is more accurate:
Surat An-Nisa' [4:34] - The Holy Qur'an - ?????? ??????
"strike them"

Arabic tafsears could be found here:
http://quran.al-islam.com/Page.aspx?pageid=221&BookID=11&Page=602
ÊÝÓíÑ ÇÈä ßËíÑ
ÊÝÓíÑ ÇáØÈÑí

and they say: beat them but not severely without breaking bones
"أن تضرب ضربا غير مبرح، ولا تكسر لها عظما"

This is the more common translation and interpretation, i've also mentioned Ibn Kathir in one post (which is what two of your links rely on). Nobody is challenging that.

What is being presented however are possible alternatives. Both in translation and interpretations. Alternatives that like i said, are accepted by some Muslim scholars.

It doesn't mean "separate from".

Actually i just noticed that, i'm not sure how i missed this in the first translation. I'm not sure if this is a possible translation or not, but its not the one i've seen. Like i mentioned earlier i've seen it more like "seperate them" or "cur them off", also seen "ignore them". That and the other possibilities that do not include the idea of separation.

The verb اضرب simply means "beat/strike" when the object is human.

Again:
The verb اضرب simply means "beat/strike" when the object is human.

I'm an Arabic speaker but i'm not really even close to being an expert, so i'd appreciate a source to this claim so i can examine it and investigate the issue further on my own.

That's what I believe based on my knowledge of Arabic language.

I'm glad you're putting it this way.

Try the stem of the verb (ضر&#1576 in google translation,
or even try the word used (اضربوه&#1606.

I've given sites with Arabic tafsears and showed what they say.

Here are some Arabic-English dictionaries:
http://dictionary.sakhr.com/
Arabic English - Dictionary-????? ???? ???????

This is from Lane's Lexicon:
Dad
Check this file:
http://www.studyquran.org/LaneLexicon/Volume5/00000062.pdf

The stem is ضرب to the lower right of the pdf file.
The form of the verb is ضَرَبَ which is the first one given. You'll see that the meaning is "beat, struck, smote, or hit,"

But thats not really accurate. Or in other words, those meanings are not it. Here is an example from the Quran itself:

وَضَرَبَ اللَّهُ مَثَلاً رَّجُلَيْنِ أَحَدُهُمَا أَبْكَمُ لاَ يَقْدِرُ عَلَىَ شَيْءٍ وَهُوَ كَلٌّ عَلَى مَوْلاهُ أَيْنَمَا يُوَجِّههُّ لاَ يَأْتِ بِخَيْرٍ هَلْ يَسْتَوِي هُوَ وَمَن يَأْمُرُ بِالْعَدْلِ وَهُوَ عَلَى صِرَاطٍ مُّسْتَقِيمٍ

If you can understand Arabic (which i assume is the case), you'll obviously know that in this case it actually can not mean beat. And this is how its translated (for others who don't speak or know Arabic):

76. Allah sets forth (another) Parable of two men: one of them dumb, with no power of any sort; a wearisome burden is he to his master; whichever way be directs him, he brings no good: is such a man equal with one who commands Justice, and is on a Straight Way?

The Holy Quran - Yusuf Ali Translation

Also if you put it in Google translate for example you'll get many meanings. Finally, there is then the issue of whether or not its possible for the word to have been used metaphorically.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Is the original meaning/intent of the verse more important than the way it is or can be (re)interpreted?

 

[Badran]

Is the original meaning/intent of the verse more important than the way it is or can be (re)interpreted?

I understand where you're coming from based on what you explained earlier regarding your view of these texts. If one takes it to be teachings from god not affected by human perspective (the words themselves that is of course, without the interpretations and the translations), it becomes crucial to understand what they mean or intend to mean, and see where you can go from there.