Will there ever be a 'Reformation' in Islam?

[Kirran]

No way, it was not sarcasm. Itr true mate. Many things to learn from you.

Well thankyou very much! I hope we all can learn from each other.

 

[paarsurrey]

Really? by claiming prophet-hood?

By claiming Messiah and Imam-Mahdi, as you know, the truthful prophet had prophesied. Right?
Regards

 

[paarsurrey]

Based on your prior interpretation of this passage as referring to Jews and Christians, does this mean that every Muslim says 46 times a day 'God is angry at the Jews'?

Since Judaism people instead of accepting a truthful prophet of messenger, they opposed them. Like they opposed Jesus and attempted to kill him on the Cross, while he only wanted to reform Judaism and to bring them back on the truthful teachings of Moses.
The Muslims pray 46 times a day that when reformation of Islam is done by the coming of Messiah and or Imam-Mahdi, they won't deny him and accept him.
This is what the world wants that Islam should be reformed and is peaceful as it was originally in the time of Muhammad. Right?
Regards

 

[Kirran]

Since Judaism people instead of accepting a truthful prophet of messenger, they opposed them. Like they opposed Jesus and attempted to kill him on the Cross, while he only wanted to reform Judaism and to bring them back on the truthful teachings of Moses.
The Muslims pray 46 times a day that when reformation of Islam is done by the coming of Messiah and or Imam-Mahdi, they won't deny him and accept him.
This is what the world wants that Islam should be reformed and is peaceful as it was originally in the time of Muhammad. Right?
Regards

So is God angry at the Jews?

 

[paarsurrey]

So is God angry at the Jews?

The Jewish scripture has enough testimony in the affirmative.
Regards

 

[paarsurrey]

If Islam is totalitarian then Islamic empires should be totalitarian. Or were they not Islamic?
You seem to be implying that there is an objective "true Islam" that exists independently of the practice of Muslims and the governance of Islamic polities.
I want you to offer some evidence as to why people should consider Islam totalitarian.
Which of these empires 'earned the descriptor' totalitarian btw?
I think you are just throwing around the label 'totalitarian' without recourse to its meaning and historical usage.
Given that the powers of an Islamic government would be clearly limited by a codified set of laws that even the leader must adhere to, given that Islam doesn't mandate a centralised economy, given that it doesn't mandate total government control over the mass media, given that it doesn't mandate a comprehensive system of secret police and domestic surveillance, given that it prohibits arbitrary detention and execution, I don't really get the label totalitarian.
There is no comprehensive "core ideology" independent of how people interpret it. Islam is as Muslims do and believe.
You seem to be claiming that you know the "Objective True Islam". If you were making a claim that some fundamentalist interpretations could be described as totalitarian then you might be able to make a reasonable argument in favour. When you don't qualify it though then it seems that you are saying people like Tariq Ramadan don't understand "core Islam", but people like you and IS do.
Islam has constantly evolved throughout its history and requires a large amount of subjective interpretation. There are countless varieties of Islam that are all "Islam".
Is it not a bit arrogant to tell the hundreds of millions of Muslims who are not totalitarian that they are basically 'wrong' and don't really follow "core Islam"? I don't get why some people seem to want to insist that the extremists have it right, and the rest of them are not really 'proper' Muslims.

I mostly agree with you. You made good points.
Thanks and regards

 

[LegionOnomaMoi]

That's a bit of an overstatement.

That's a bit of an understatement

 

[TashaN]

By claiming Messiah and Imam-Mahdi, as you know, the truthful prophet had prophesied. Right?
Regards

You mean Mirza has prophicised that he himself will be a prophet? was he claiming to be a prophet or just to be prophet incarnation? oh wait! are we still talking about Islam or about other religions like Hinduism, Buddhism, etc.?

 

[LuisDantas]

The Jewish scripture has enough testimony in the affirmative.
Regards

Enough for one to wonder how the theology works, certainly.

Hardly enough for one to actually believe in such a thing.

 

[paarsurrey]

Just to make it more clear.
paarsurrey said: ↑
By claiming Messiah and Imam-Mahdi, as you know, the truthful prophet Muhammad had prophesied. Right?

You mean Mirza has prophicised that he himself will be a prophet? was he claiming to be a prophet or just to be prophet incarnation? oh wait! are we still talking about Islam or about other religions like Hinduism, Buddhism, etc.?

We are well within Islam rather in the core of Islam, as Muhammad had prophesied for coming of Messiah and Imam Mahdi in his ummah as successor to him.
Regards

 

[Moishe3rd]

Today, we are living the Muslim Reformation. It has been ongoing for the last 100 years.

It began when the Ottoman Empire disintegrated and the Saudi tribe once more conquered the Arabian Peninsula; again sacking and looting and capturing Mecca and Medina; and finally opening the Gates of Ijtihad with their new Wahhabist heresy unopposed by the normative Sunni Islam Empire. There was no more Sultan or Caliph to oppose them.
Since that time, every demagogic faction, tribe, cult, sect, clan, and country has been killing each other over who has the Best Flavor of Allah. It has grown to a world wide slaughter of Arabs and Muslims mainly murdering each other in the Name of Their particular death god.

Christians did the same thing 500 years ago and obliterated tens of millions of Christian Europeans and much of Europe.
Jews did the same thing 2,000 years ago and obliterated millions of Jews; their Holy Temple; and the Kingdom of Israel.

If the Muslims continue in the same manner, hundreds of millions (or billions) will die and portions of planet Earth will be left uninhabitable.

 

[firedragon]

Today, we are living the Muslim Reformation. It has been ongoing for the last 100 years.

It began when the Ottoman Empire disintegrated and the Saudi tribe once more conquered the Arabian Peninsula; again sacking and looting and capturing Mecca and Medina; and finally opening the Gates of Ijtihad with their new Wahhabist heresy unopposed by the normative Sunni Islam Empire. There was no more Sultan or Caliph to oppose them.
Since that time, every demagogic faction, tribe, cult, sect, clan, and country has been killing each other over who has the Best Flavor of Allah. It has grown to a world wide slaughter of Arabs and Muslims mainly murdering each other in the Name of Their particular death god.

Christians did the same thing 500 years ago and obliterated tens of millions of Christian Europeans and much of Europe.
Jews did the same thing 2,000 years ago and obliterated millions of Jews; their Holy Temple; and the Kingdom of Israel.

If the Muslims continue in the same manner, hundreds of millions (or billions) will die and portions of planet Earth will be left uninhabitable.

I hate it when people say such nasty things I sometimes have to agree with. But will you help make a change?

 

[LuisDantas]

There was no more Sultan or Caliph to oppose them.

Or to motivate them.

Relying on a central authority is inherently dangerous, as history shows all too painfully. People can't count on the luck of the dice of having a fair and merciful ruler to be virtuous and wise on their own stead.

Since that time, every demagogic faction, tribe, cult, sect, clan, and country has been killing each other over who has the Best Flavor of Allah. It has grown to a world wide slaughter of Arabs and Muslims mainly murdering each other in the Name of Their particular death god.

I fear that is typical of any sufficiently numerous community that relies too much on god-concepts to personify their moral virtue and, worst of all, their responsibility of rule. They may well lack any choice, seeing how it is unusual for those communities to feel any duty to keep responsible population levels or to overcome nationalist feelings.

Christians did the same thing 500 years ago and obliterated tens of millions of Christian Europeans and much of Europe.
Jews did the same thing 2,000 years ago and obliterated millions of Jews; their Holy Temple; and the Kingdom of Israel.

If the Muslims continue in the same manner, hundreds of millions (or billions) will die and portions of planet Earth will be left uninhabitable.

I am not aware of this Jewish massacre you mention. Would you be willing to give me a hint?

 

[Moishe3rd]

Or to motivate them.

Relying on a central authority is inherently dangerous, as history shows all too painfully. People can't count on the luck of the dice of having a fair and merciful ruler to be virtuous and wise on their own stead.




I fear that is typical of any sufficiently numerous community that relies too much on god-concepts to personify their moral virtue and, worst of all, their responsibility of rule. They may well lack any choice, seeing how it is unusual for those communities to feel any duty to keep responsible population levels or to overcome nationalist feelings.


I am not aware of this Jewish massacre you mention. Would you be willing to give me a hint?

Approximately 167 BCE, Mattisyahu, father of the "Maccabees," cut off the head of a Jew who was bowing down to the idol that that the Syrian-Greeks had erected in the Temple.
Thus began the revolt of the Maccabees.
It was, in essence, a civil war where the Enemy was the Hellenized Jewish inhabitants of the Land of Israel.
The Maccabees ostensibly won.
Then came the reign of the Hasmonean kings (the Maccabees and their descendants).
From the time they were fighting the Syrian-Greeks/ Hellenized Jews, the Hasmoneans made alliances with everyone who who assist them in their conquests - including Hellenized Jews; Syrian Greeks (Seleucid's); Egyptian Greeks (Ptolemy's); Persians; and Arabs.
And, from the time they assumed their "kingship," they were mainly fighting each other.
From approximately 167 BCE to approximately 133 CE, the Jews were slaughtering each over over who had the Favorite Flavor of G-d.
The Romans (Pompey) were INVITED into Jerusalem to support one of the Hasmoneans against another.
They stayed and eventually made the Kingdom of Israel a Roman province.
All during that time, the Jews continued killing each other. In the final siege of Jerusalem around 70 CE, it was the Sicari; the Zealots; and other militaristic factions who burned the granaries of Jerusalem and did not allow other factions to surrender to the Romans.
In other words, in the mores of the times, it was the Jews who were terrorizing and creating chaos in the Roman world...
And, the end result was that over 5 million Jews were killed; enslaved; or fled the Kingdom of Israel from about 167 BCE to 133 CE.
The Temple was destroyed and the Kingdom of Israel was obliterated.
In essence, the Jews destroyed their "World."

Just as the Christian Europeans did during their Reformation. Just as the Muslims are doing now.

However, out of this deadly Jewish Reformation came almost 2,000 years of enlightenment; scholarship; devotion to G-d; peace; and prosperity. It also spawned Christianity and Islam.
Just as out of the Christian Reformation came small bands of refugees to North America who created a new theology in Christianity which, after 400 years, is now accepted by every mainstream Christian denomination and tradition.
The only problem is that this Muslims Reformation does, indeed, encompass planet Earth - their "World," and the weapons that are available are weapons of mass destruction.
Mankind does not have the luxury of another 200 years of terror and death until Islam finally "reforms" into a peaceful and productive religion....
This is not good.

 

[YmirGF]

Why would insulting their religion create a sudden desire amongst Muslims to reform Islam simply to please the people insulting their religion?

Would you settle for a supremacist, totalitarian, personality cult?

 

[Augustus]

Would you settle for a supremacist, totalitarian, personality cult?

That has nothing to do with my point.

Do you believe that calling Islam totalitarian will miraculously lead to some sort of change? A bit like how calling IS daesh has got them running for the hills?

 

[YmirGF]

That has nothing to do with my point.

Do you believe that calling Islam totalitarian will miraculously lead to some sort of change? A bit like how calling IS daesh has got them running for the hills?

I do agree with you that it would change little as I believe that Islam cannot change.

 

[TashaN]

Just to make it more clear.
paarsurrey said: ↑
By claiming Messiah and Imam-Mahdi, as you know, the truthful prophet Muhammad had prophesied. Right?


We are well within Islam rather in the core of Islam, as Muhammad had prophesied for coming of Messiah and Imam Mahdi in his ummah as successor to him.
Regards

Prophet Mohamed said a Prophet will come after me and his name will be Mirza Gulam?

 

[Moishe3rd]

I hate it when people say such nasty things I sometimes have to agree with. But will you help make a change?

I am trying but, I am essentially an ADD non-productive "voice."
I am good at responding to people and I am good at reading and understanding the reality; the history of things.
However, I am perplexed on how to persuade others of my thoughts.

There are two main paradigms that people essentially glom onto.
The first is that Islam is Evil; Mohammad was Evil; and from it's inception; Islam has always been Evil.
The second is, of course, that Islam is a religion of Peace.

Both are silly, inaccurate, and useless paradigms in dealing with Islam.
It's like today's rallying cry - ISIS Must Be Destroyed! ("Carthago delenda est" - there is indeed Nothing New Under the Sun).
I keep on wondering - what is everybody thinking? Last week's favorite flavor of Islamist terrorist mufsidun was Al Quaeda; or the Muslim Brotherhood; or Hamas; or the Taliban; or Pakistan's ISI; or Boko Haram; or Sudan's NIF; or fascist Assad, Hussein, Erdogan; or Iran's Shia heresy of Vilayat al Faqih; or the Houthis; or Hezbollah; etc.; etc. ad nauseum.
ISIS is simply trying to imitate and duplicate the EXACT same thing that the Saudi Tribe did 100 years ago when they brutally and savagely, in the EXACT same manner that ISIS is doing, conquered the Arabian peninsula. Now their Wahhabist Saudi ******* offspring are coming to eat their progenitor.

The solution, of course, would be for the Sunni Wahhabist clerics of Saudi Arabia and the Sunni clerics of Al Ansar University in Egypt to agree on various theological matters and come out with one voice, pronouncing fatwas against ALL extra legal killing - no matter the grievance; to recognize the Jewish State of Israel and again condemn all attacks and murders by Muslims and Arabs against anyone in the Name of Destroying Israel or Killing Jews - in keeping with Mohammad's definitive statement that the Land of Israel was given to the Jews..
If all the Sunni clerics pronounced illegal Jihad - hirabah, an absolute anathema to Islam and that all who tried to violently murder others or committed suicide while murdering others were going straight to Muslim Hell then, the problem would begin to be addressed. Of course, it would, in the short run create more death and chaos but - if those Muslim States that were onboard with this idea acted against those who were now trying to kill them - as their fatwa's would have dictated - slowly, the world would change....

Or, they are simply all going to continue until Riyadh and Tehran and Paris and Mumbai and Cairo are all just piles of radioactive debris.... This is not good.

 

[paarsurrey]

Prophet Mohamed said a Prophet will come after me and his name will be Mirza Gulam?

Names of all the prophets are not mentioned by Quran:

[4:164] Surely, We have sent revelation to thee, as We sent revelation to Noah and the Prophets after him; and We sent revelation to Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac and Jacob and his children and to Jesus and Job and Jonah and Aaron and Solomon, and We gave David a Book.

[4:165]AndWe sent someMessengers whom We have already mentioned to thee and some Messengers whom We have not mentioned to thee — and Allah spoke to Moses particularly —
[4:166]Messengers, bearers of glad tidings and warners, so that people may have no plea against Allah afterthe coming ofthe Messengers. And Allah is Mighty, Wise.
http://www.alislam.org/quran/search2/showChapter.php?ch=4&verse=164​

Regards