Woke and DEI - good intentions, so-so, dogmatic solutions

[LuisDantas]

The woke / DEI folks set themselves up for this sort of attack

You can claim it's not fair, but the right is capturing too many hearts and minds, and the woke / DEI folks are making that easy.

... are you sure you are even talking about people who actually exist?

 

[LuisDantas]

Not quite. Otherwise very few people would vote for GOP.
I guess they mean the values of functioning society within rural America: order, hard work, cooperation.
And that merit can make you become anything.

It is something of a mystery how come there are still people voting for Republicans.

The party is bankrupt far as credibility and values go. Has been for decades.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

The woke / DEI folks set themselves up for this sort of attack

You can claim it's not fair, but the right is capturing too many hearts and minds, and the woke / DEI folks are making that easy.

That is a false claim. We are not a single unified group. And underpins how you approach it.
You do the same as you claim that we are, but we are not that.

 

[PureX]

As for believing his lies, I DO NOT. Please take the time to read what I've written. I know he's a liar!! I do not believe him!! But he's clever, and DEI types make it easier than necessary to spin his clever lies and convince a far-too-credulous population.

Then stop blaming those who tell the truth for the liars twisting and perverting it. Because that seems to be what you're doing here.

 

[icehorse]

Try as I might, I cannot see what you see. I really can't.

If you really are "liberal," as you say, then you must avoid the dogma that is most prevalant in your nation -- and that is the dogma of the religious right trying to inflame hatred against any diversity that either frightens them, or promises them another vote or two.

Well I think I'm a liberal:

In no particular order, I believe in: free speech, protecting the environment, universal health care, taxing the rich, reversing the income and wealth gaps, strong social security, massive cuts to our "defense" budgets, universal childcare, raising the minimum wage, equal pay for equal work, massive improvements to our education system (including much stronger support for teachers), a strong separation of church and state, ending and reversing the incarceration of non-violent drug offenders, relaxing most drug laws, marriage equality for all, pro-choice, much stronger restrictions on guns, prosecuting white collar thieves (e.g. bankers who default, Wall Streeters...), rebuilding and maintaining our infrastructure...

I probably forgot a few things.

But I think the following are bad ideas:

- Pursuing equity, rather than equality
- Affirmative action, rather than merit
- Identity politics, rather than finding common ground
- Ibram X. Kendi, rather than MLK
- Trans-women on International Women's Day
- Debate, rather than dogma

 

[icehorse]

That is a false claim. We are not a single unified group. And underpins how you approach it.
You do the same as you claim that we are, but we are not that.

See post #45, I'm talking about a collection of IDEAS, put forth by some folks in the DEI camp.

 

[Kfox]

That is a false claim. We are not a single unified group. And underpins how you approach it.

You don’t have to be a single unified group in order to do as he claims. All that is needed to be done is for a percentage of your group to do it (perhaps the fringe portion of your group) and because that portion is allowed to be included in your group, the entire group gets the blame. If the DEI group does not like the bad name the fringe group is giving them, they need to separate themselves from the fringe group and say they do not represent our views.

 

[Kfox]

Well I think I'm a liberal:

In no particular order, I believe in: universal health care,

Health care for the poor is done at the state level; rather than the federal level,

taxing the rich,

Already done!

reversing the income and wealth gaps,

That might actually hurt the poor

strong social security,

How strong?

massive cuts to our "defense" budgets,

Agreed!

raising the minimum wage,

Already done

equal pay for equal work,

Define equal work

massive improvements to our education system

Already done

, a strong separation of church and state,

Done

ending and reversing the incarceration of non-violent drug offenders,

In many places already done

relaxing most drug laws,

In many places, already done

marriage equality for all,

For all? I doubt very many people want that.

pro-choice,

Done

much stronger restrictions on guns,

Done

prosecuting white collar thieves

Done

rebuilding and maintaining our infrastructure...

Done

I probably forgot a few things.

I will bet some of the stuff you may have forgot may have already been done as well

 

[icehorse]

@Kfox - it would seem that we often disagree on what defines "done". I'd debate you on those points if you want to start a new thread

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Well I think I'm a liberal:

In no particular order, I believe in: protecting the environment, universal health care, taxing the rich, reversing the income and wealth gaps, strong social security, massive cuts to our "defense" budgets, universal childcare, raising the minimum wage, equal pay for equal work, massive improvements to our education system (including much stronger support for teachers), a strong separation of church and state, ending and reversing the incarceration of non-violent drug offenders, relaxing most drug laws, marriage equality for all, pro-choice, much stronger restrictions on guns, prosecuting white collar thieves (e.g. bankers who default, Wall Streeters...), rebuilding and maintaining our infrastructure...

I probably forgot a few things.

But I think the following are bad ideas:

- Pursuing equity, rather than equality
- Affirmative action, rather than merit
- Identity politics, rather than finding common ground
- Ibram X. Kendi, rather than MLK
- Trans-women on International Women's Day

The way you describe yourself looks far left of liberal to me, bordering on socialist.

 

[F1fan]

I'm lumping "woke" and DEI ideas into the same category. I'm not attached to this lumping, so I don't want to get side-tracked if all you want to do is some un-lumping. But let's try to keep the lumping / unlumping separate from the point of the OP.

==

For the sake of this discussion, I'm happy to grant that the woke / DEI folks are well intended. You know "diversity, equality, inclusion", those all sound like good ideas! But the devil is in the details. For example, there is a HUGE difference between equality of opportunity and equality of outcome.

But what I see is that there is a powerful, vocal group within the woke / DEI community who push their solutions quite dogmatically and often intolerantly. Further, part of their dogma asserts that many of us aren't even allowed into the conversation!! E.g., regardless of a cis-white-male's credentials or expertise, he's not allowed to have a voice in the conversation.

This dogmatic approach is hurting ALL liberals. I've linked to a portion of a speech that DeSantis gave recently. IMO, because of the extraordinary claims and proposals of the woke / DEI crowd, someone like DeSantis can push back quite reasonably. He talks about "quality of character". As a liberal, I have to agree with that idea. He talks (indirectly), about problems with identity politics. Again, as a liberal, I have to agree.

So we need to be suspicious of all dogma, and especially post-truth, extraordinary, fuzzy-on-the-details, no discussions allowed dogma.

It would have helped if you provided examples of the dogmatic solutions pushed by the DEI community. I have no idea who they are or what they are doing that you consider dogmatic. I am aware of Desantis and his policies, and they seem excessive and coming close to white supremacy. There are some who might consider the Brown v Board of Education decision to be taking things too far. Sarah Huckabee Sanders is moving forward with resegregating schools in Arkansas.

Bill resegregates, Central students write Sanders | Arkansas Democrat Gazette

A student group at Little Rock Central High School has taken a public stand against Gov. Sarah Huckabee Sanders' invocation of Central High history in her speeches, and also to her education legislation known as the proposed Arkansas LEARNS Act.

www.arkansasonline.com

With this sort of basic attitude of the new normal republican I can see why advocates for DEI are having to fight back to regain lost ground.

 

[F1fan]

I could suggest DeSantis a new slogan for his campaign: Make America Proud Again.

If your skin is lily white, and you are proud of that happenstance of the genetic lottery, sure.

But I'm white and feel no pride in being white when there are white bigots and white supremacists like DeSantis. He is a disgusting political figure that has little place in national politics because what he stands for will offe nothing but division and harm to the very marginalized citizens our nation is supposed to support with liberty.

Focusing on values. American values.

Confederate States of America values, yes.

I hope he wins.

Another strike against your reputation.

 

[F1fan]

Whenever the term "woke" is used, the vast majority of the time it's by a conservative to denote something they either don't like or don't understand, be it LGBT rights, solar panels, or cauliflower sandwiches.

Right, when a conservative uses the word "woke" as a descriptive then I immediately understand that to mean "Here is something I don't understand, nor have tolerance for because my character is weak." And their words confirm my understanding.

 

[Estro Felino]

Another strike against your reputation.

I come from a country where political correctness is banned, and people are so blunt, that they couldn't care less about popularity contests.

 

[Kfox]

@Kfox - it would seem that we often disagree on what defines "done".

I define "done" as having been done already.

 

[Father Heathen]

I come from a country where political correctness is banned, and people are so blunt, that they couldn't care less about popularity contests.

It's a shame that they don't care about logic or human decency, either.
If not for pizza, they'd have no redeeming qualities.

 

[Stevicus]

So we need to be suspicious of all dogma, and especially post-truth, extraordinary, fuzzy-on-the-details, no discussions allowed dogma.

This kind of thing is giving easy fodder to the diseased right.

I agree that excessively dogmatic attitudes can be counterproductive and even toxic in public discourse. I've always considered identity politics to be myopically naive, at best. Sometimes, it seems far too formalistic and image-oriented, rather than any honest look at the nuts and bolts of the content. Style over substance is the main problem that I see among the liberals, whereas the conservatives perceive that as their Achilles' Heel and attack on that basis.

 

[Estro Felino]

It's a shame that they don't care about logic or human decency, either.
If not for pizza, they'd have no redeeming qualities.

I thought Trump was the worst candidate ever, in your opinion.
Is DeSantis the lesser of two evils?

 

[F1fan]

I come from a country where political correctness is banned,

What about dignity and mutual respect?

and people are so blunt, that they couldn't care less about popularity contests.

Being blunt isn’t the problem. It’s lacking moral character.

 

[Father Heathen]

I thought Trump was the worst candidate ever, in your opinion.
Is DeSantis the lesser of two evils?

When comparing rancid turds, the difference is negligible.