Wolves in sheep's clothings when the light inside is darkness.

[RESOLUTION]

I imagine a lot of folks you may see as evil now thought they were doing God's work, destroying evil.

Probably why Nietzsche said -
“He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster . . . when you gaze long into the abyss the abyss also gazes into you”

Folks evil? See as evil? When people create the monster and also become the monster there abyss is the darkness of their own soul from which there would be no escape. by me.

 

[Robert Landbeck]

When we debate religions and look through history at the evil done using religion as a screen.
Do we as human beings really recognise the evil taking place before us?
Discuss the religions which mankind have hijacked to use as a defense for doing evil and yet the religion does not teach such evil.

Then look at Satan and how he might be behind all these things in order to destroy as many human lives as
possible.

We expect an anti-Christ we expect many things to happen and all evil, destructive and devastating to many.
God has warned that people perish for lack of knowledge and that is a lack of love of truth.

I understand this is a heavy topic intellectually and religiously. Sometimes we have to test our trains of thought and where we are going regarding those thoughts about religion, mankind and the future. Especially when it comes to God, Man and Satan in religious teachings.

So discuss the history and where you can see these things having happened.

What part are humans playing without even realising it?

In one paper I recently read, there were counted more than three hundred direct references to and warnings against false teaching among the scriptural record. Even more counting indirect ones. I have always wondered how so much warning could exist without also having the means to recognize and expose the wolves in sheeps clothing.

For myself, the answer lies in the word theology. Is this even a valid human intellectual project or a 'bridge too far' of human intellectual and spiritual vanity? Is there a difference between a true revelation from God and the all to human 'interpretation' of a revelation offered by religion? I find it implausible that God would enable the event of the Incarnation and then watch as two thousand years of disagreement, schism and blood were shed over exactly what was revealed. Not to mention two other competing mono theisms.

If the theological construct of tradition has nothing to do with God, as is my own opinion, than all who share this 'faith' paradigm are not only being deceived by a self ordained priesthood, but unwittingly maintaining a colossal institutional falsehood, however sincere their faith may be.

There is much talk these days of a second coming. And I have to wonder if such an event will be to confirm existing faith traditions or to correct our understanding of God. I'm betting on the latter and gnashing of teeth all around. The Final Freedoms

 

[RESOLUTION]

Many religions do teach some evil things. For instance the Bible teaches who to buy your slaves from, and how much you are allowed to beat them ( it is okay as long as they take longer than two or three days to die, because they "are your property". It is not just that a religion might be used as a "screen" for doing evil, it's that evil can actually be justified by them.

Is that present day? So why bring it up? How long has slavery been abolished?
So no slavery in the religions today?

 

[Evie]

In one paper I recently read, there were counted more than three hundred direct references to and warnings against false teaching among the scriptural record. Even more counting indirect ones. I have always wondered how so much warning could exist without also having the means to recognize and expose the wolves in sheeps clothing.

For myself, the answer lies in the word theology. Is this even a valid human intellectual project or a 'bridge too far' of human intellectual and spiritual vanity? Is there a difference between a true revelation from God and the all to human 'interpretation' of a revelation offered by religion? I find it implausible that God would enable the event of the Incarnation and then watch as two thousand years of disagreement, schism and blood were shed over exactly what was revealed. Not to mention two other competing mono theisms.

If the theological construct of tradition has nothing to do with God, as is my own opinion, than all who share this 'faith' paradigm are not only being deceived by a self ordained priesthood, but unwittingly maintaining a colossal institutional falsehood, however sincere their faith may be.

There is much talk these days of a second coming. And I have to wonder if such an event will be to confirm existing faith traditions or to correct our understanding of God. I'm betting on the latter and gnashing of teeth all around. The Final Freedoms

In answer to the words ofRobert Landbeck I will return to the first question I put to the Forum upon joining. That question being: Could it be possible that all religious beliefs exist for a reason? And that God did not prevent such a system of religion to form because of that reason? A reason known only to Himself?

 

[EtuMalku]

Ezekiel 28. 15 God's written Word

This is a strawman argument, you cannot evidence these words are anything more than those of men.

 

[RESOLUTION]

An all-powerful all-knowing God that exists beyond space and time created Satan with free will. An all-powerful all-knowing God that exists beyond space and time would also know that His Satan creation would choose to bring 'evil' into the world. IF this all-powerful all-knowing God created Satan knowing Satan would bring evil into the world, then God IS responsible for bringing evil into the world. If God is indeed the creator of EVERYTHING then He must take responsibility for the bad and not just take credit for the good.

Men and women still have children today, bringing them into the world and look around you, is it really a fit place to bring children into?
So is life measured by the evil that will exist or the good things we can experience as individuals in life?
We don't see the future and have no impact on what might happen and we still create children. We do that not able to change the outcome or make something better.
An all knowing and powerful God is best equipped to make the decisions regarding the final outcome and worth of creating something knowing what it will face.

When you see the Ocean and beautiful sunsets and know you can see far more splendid things for eternity. Would you have chosen not be have been created?
God is not responsible for evil. Free will and the evil in a person are .

This all-powerful all-knowing God created A&E KNOWING that his Satan creation would try and deceive them, yet He failed to provide A&E with any concept of what lying and deception is, thus ensuring that they would in fact be deceived. One deceived He blames A&E for exercising their free will, yet He refuses to take any responsibility for failing to properly prepare and educate A&E about dealing with his evil creation Satan. If a parent allows their child to walk to school along, but fails to ever teach them about the possible dangers of strangers trying to lure them into their car, you CAN blame the child for freely choosing to get into the car, but the Majority of the blame would fall upon the parent for failing to properly educate the child about the dangers that existed outside of the home.

Christians are doing things in the world you can only dream about. Human thought and error is restricted to humans.
As for the human failings with our own children you cannot compare that to God. He provides you have to accept. He tells you and your children should be aware of stranger
danger. As I said evil is our choice as it was Satan's. Robots cannot respond they can only be programmed.

 

[Evie]

Is that present day? So why bring it up? How long has slavery been abolished?
So no slavery in the religions today?

There are forms of slavery. Physical slavery. And slavery of the mind. The physical is obvious to all, but an enslaved mind is not obvious, not even to the person whose mind is enslaved. Imprisoned by one or more false beliefs.

 

[Evie]

Men and women still have children today, bringing them into the world and look around you, is it really a fit place to bring children into?
So is life measured by the evil that will exist or the good things we can experience as individuals in life?
We don't see the future and have no impact on what might happen and we still create children. We do that not able to change the outcome or make something better.
An all knowing and powerful God is best equipped to make the decisions regarding the final outcome and worth of creating something knowing what it will face.

When you see the Ocean and beautiful sunsets and know you can see far more splendid things for eternity. Would you have chosen not be have been created?
God is not responsible for evil. Free will and the evil in a person are .



Christians are doing things in the world you can only dream about. Human thought and error is restricted to humans.
As for the human failings with our own children you cannot compare that to God. He provides you have to accept. He tells you and your children should be aware of stranger
danger. As I said evil is our choice as it was Satan's. Robots cannot respond they can only be programmed.

Would any prefer themselves or their children to be 'programmed' in such a way that their life is a type of 'puppet' existence,; a life where a master puppeteer governs a person's every move by pulling particular strings to which the person is attached? That is the alternative to being free to choose.

 

[Evie]

This is a strawman argument, you cannot evidence these words are anything more than those of men.

God said it, I believe it, and that settles it. The Bible is all humanity has to expose any untruths people try to make others believe. Without the Written Word and the power of the Holy Spirit to move the Hand of God to open our eyes to the truth of the scriptures, we would have remained lost.

 

[RESOLUTION]

We play all parts, deliberately. We are God and Satan. You could say God is Satan. The central premise of Christianity is, here is what God wants you to do, if you don't do it you are going to a lake of fire to burn and suffer for ever.....but God loves you. This is about control and self delusion.

With respect Nigel, When have you ever seen light and darkness in existence at the same time in one place?

 

[RESOLUTION]

We play all parts, deliberately. We are God and Satan. You could say God is Satan. The central premise of Christianity is, here is what God wants you to do, if you don't do it you are going to a lake of fire to burn and suffer for ever.....but God loves you. This is about control and self delusion.

Hello Nigel,
I do not understand your thought pattern here.
Light and Darkness cannot exist at the same time in any one place. Good and Evil like God and the Devil do not represent the same thing or each other.
I find the way you see things illogical in the process of thought when looking at these things.

Man already dead in their sins. Break one commandment you have broken them all. It is the same outcome.
God provides a way to clear you guilt and allow you to live.
Your choice.

Does not represent what you wrote.

 

[RESOLUTION]

I don't actually agree with that.

1. It doesn't say Satan tempted Eve. It says Nachash/Serpent did. And we know they were surrounded by followers of Serpent religions.

Though it says serpent we know the Serpent lied. As Christ said " Satan is the FATHER of all lies" King James Bible
Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

So the serpent was clearly not of God in that he chose as many do today, to believe and follow the lies of Satan.
When do you think the first lie occurred?

2. In Tanakh, Tempting/TESTING is Satan's assigned job. If found wanting - he brings you before YHVH to condemn you.

2 Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan came also among them to present himself before the Lord.

7 So went Satan forth from the presence of the Lord, and smote Job with sore boils from the sole of his foot unto his crown.

18 While he was yet speaking, there came also another, and said, Thy sons and thy daughters were eating and drinking wine in their eldest brother's house:

19 And, behold, there came a great wind from the wilderness, and smote the four corners of the house, and it fell upon the young men, and they are dead; and I only am escaped alone to tell thee.


Plainly, we see disaster brought upon the children of Job. His own body smote with sores and boils.
You understand not what God is showing here and how Christ puts an end to the accuser.
The bible shows clearly that Satan is a being.

Zec 3:1 And he showed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the LORD, and Satan standing at his right hand to accuse him.

Psa 109:6 Set thou a wicked man over him: and let Satan stand at his right hand. 109:7 When he shall be judged, let him be condemned: and let his prayer become sin.

Job 1:8 And said YHVH to Satan, do put your regard upon my servant Job for there is none like him on the earth, a man pious and upright, fearing Elohiym and turning from wickedness.

There is no evil autonomous Satan in Tanakh. Christians added that stuff.

3. One would assume in the story, that YHVH would send his Tester Satan to TEST Jesus, - to make sure he was ready, - before he started on his mission.

4. Where does it actually say Satan fell?

John 6:70
Jesus answered them, "Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!"

King James Bible
Then entered Satan into Judas surnamed Iscariot, being of the number of the twelve.

Work it out... where did the demons and evil spirits come from?
You think you know so many things but the truth does not support you having any knowledge.
Tel us all what you believe about the evil forces of the world and why they exist.
Evil spirits were around before Christ born so what are you going to use to explain the existence of evil?

 

[RESOLUTION]

Mat 10:34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

That sword is specifically a machaira, - a war dirk - a short sword for hand to hand fighting.

He mentions the same swords in other verses.

Luk 22:35 And he said unto them, When I sent you without purse, and scrip, and shoes, lacked ye any thing? And they said, Nothing.

Luk 22:36 Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.

Luk 22:37 For I say unto you, that this that is written must yet be accomplished in me, And he was reckoned among the transgressors: for the things concerning me have an end.

Luk 22:38 And they said, Lord, behold, here are two swords. And he said unto them, It is enough.

Obviously he thinks real swords are needed here.

*

Go read my post again and the bible them come back with something you actually know and understand. Gibberish and not clever by any means,.
Some people present good arguments but you have nothing. If you do not know what Christ is saying should you be repeating him?

 

[pearl]

For myself, the answer lies in the word theology. Is this even a valid human intellectual project or a 'bridge too far' of human intellectual and spiritual vanity? Is there a difference between a true revelation from God and the all to human 'interpretation' of a revelation offered by religion? I find it implausible that God would enable the event of the Incarnation and then watch as two thousand years of disagreement, schism and blood were shed over exactly what was revealed.

The question is how does God communicate his will to man. At Sinai a revealed religion with laws, rites and a hierarchy becomes historical fact. It is communicated to Moses, transmitted by him to the Israelites, and eventually committed to writing under the Holy Spirit. How is this personal mystical experience communicated to all, making public the revelation received in a personal mystical encounter with God? It must be adapted to man's way of thinking and living in order to grasp it.
Revelation may be complete, but our human understanding of the revelation is never to be considered complete. And this is the importance of theology and biblical exegesis in a continued effort to grasp God's revelation for where we are today.

I don't think one can deny that a superficial reading of the Gospels, especially John, where the 'Jewish leaders' of the Synoptic gospels become the Jews, collectively, that through the centuries has led to intolerance and worse. Certainly it is not the only factor, but at least one that can be, and has been, corrected.

 

[Evie]

Though it says serpent we know the Serpent lied. As Christ said " Satan is the FATHER of all lies" King James Bible
Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

So the serpent was clearly not of God in that he chose as many do today, to believe and follow the lies of Satan.
When do you think the first lie occurred?


2 Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan came also among them to present himself before the Lord.

7 So went Satan forth from the presence of the Lord, and smote Job with sore boils from the sole of his foot unto his crown.

18 While he was yet speaking, there came also another, and said, Thy sons and thy daughters were eating and drinking wine in their eldest brother's house:

19 And, behold, there came a great wind from the wilderness, and smote the four corners of the house, and it fell upon the young men, and they are dead; and I only am escaped alone to tell thee.


Plainly, we see disaster brought upon the children of Job. His own body smote with sores and boils.
You understand not what God is showing here and how Christ puts an end to the accuser.
The bible shows clearly that Satan is a being.




John 6:70
Jesus answered them, "Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!"

King James Bible
Then entered Satan into Judas surnamed Iscariot, being of the number of the twelve.

Work it out... where did the demons and evil spirits come from?
You think you know so many things but the truth does not support you having any knowledge.
Tel us all what you believe about the evil forces of the world and why they exist.
Evil spirits were around before Christ born so what are you going to use to explain the existence of evil?

Who are you addressing?

 

[Evie]

Who are you addressing?

By accepting that there was a time mankind was not corrupt. Was perfect in God's eyes. And God could commune with man. But something happened. The fall. There was a break in communication. Was there a back up so that in the event of such a break occurring, it would not mean the immediate end to human existence?

 

[RESOLUTION]

The biggest 'lie' perpetrated on humanity by Satan, is to cause people to believe he doesn't exist.

The greatest lie is denial of Gods existence. The greatest deception is that people think Satan does not exist.

 

[RESOLUTION]

In one paper I recently read, there were counted more than three hundred direct references to and warnings against false teaching among the scriptural record. Even more counting indirect ones. I have always wondered how so much warning could exist without also having the means to recognize and expose the wolves in sheeps clothing.

For myself, the answer lies in the word theology. Is this even a valid human intellectual project or a 'bridge too far' of human intellectual and spiritual vanity? Is there a difference between a true revelation from God and the all to human 'interpretation' of a revelation offered by religion? I find it implausible that God would enable the event of the Incarnation and then watch as two thousand years of disagreement, schism and blood were shed over exactly what was revealed. Not to mention two other competing mono theisms.

If the theological construct of tradition has nothing to do with God, as is my own opinion, than all who share this 'faith' paradigm are not only being deceived by a self ordained priesthood, but unwittingly maintaining a colossal institutional falsehood, however sincere their faith may be.

There is much talk these days of a second coming. And I have to wonder if such an event will be to confirm existing faith traditions or to correct our understanding of God. I'm betting on the latter and gnashing of teeth all around. The Final Freedoms

The OT and Christ preach Spirit and Truth.
So the lesson is always about God and truth through his Spirit and the Word.

 

[Evie]

The greatest lie is denial of Gods existence. The greatest deception is that people think Satan does not exist.

Lie, deception. Both basically the same thing.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

Christians didn't need any help from their Satan to do terrible things in the name of the bleeding Nazarene. The most dangerous possible person, after all, is someone who's convinced they know the will of their God.

Agreed.

And that is among the many ways that religion harms us. Sure, some people would still be nasty without religion, but when they believe and claim that they have the imprimatur of a good god, and can convince others of that as well, they feel self-righteous, and they manufacture the consent of those that they can convince that a god speaks through them.

• "Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it, you'd have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. For good people to do evil things, it takes religion." - Nobelist Steven Weinberg

• "One never does evil so fully and gaily, as when one does it through a false principle of conscience." - Pascal