Women Liberating Themselves from Liberation

[Alceste]

But that "right to self-determination" is founded in the philosophical idea that we can self-determine, and that is what their philosophy balks at. The right is truly inalienable only if its actually the case, and the actual case is a metaphysical issue the truth of which is not and cannot be known. In a very real sense, the right to not be self-defined is equally inalienable (and one we all practice in the many ways we allow others to define who we are).

I agree with ATS that their thinking does not appear to be as nuanced or philosophical as you would like to believe. Feminism is responsible for porn and STDs, according to them, and only started in the 60s: A convenient date for anyone who wants to blame the permissive cultural explosion of the free love generation entirely on women who decline to be submissive and religious.

In short, they're idiots. You're not an idiot. By trying to see things from their point of view, but being unable to be an idiot yourself, you're just misrepresenting their point of view.

 

[Aquitaine]

Or the man.

Yes, or the Man.


As for these people outlining this MANifesto, there should be a law in place that forbids anyone from restricintg the Rights of an individual, especially if there's Religion involved.

It would be so much better if there was total Equality, where Man/Woman are just seen as "Individual", and each Individual must be economically independent, and must be given the same share of education, healthcare, Rights, employment etc etc.

It would benefit the country in the long run too.

 

[Willamena]

I agree with ATS that their thinking does not appear to be as nuanced or philosophical as you would like to believe. Feminism is responsible for porn and STDs, according to them, and only started in the 60s: A convenient date for anyone who wants to blame the permissive cultural explosion of the free love generation entirely on women who decline to be submissive and religious.

In short, they're idiots. You're not an idiot. By trying to see things from their point of view, but being unable to be an idiot yourself, you're just misrepresenting their point of view.

Rights, ideologies (like Feminism) and religions are intregally bound to philosophies. To separate them is to ignore the source of the problem. And I agree that many people on both sides of the issue want to do that. They close their mind to the very idea of putting themselves in the other's person's shoes.

 

[Aquitaine]

Rights, ideologies (like Feminism) and religions are intregally bound to philosophies. To separate them is to ignore the source of the problem. And I agree that many people on both sides of the issue want to do that. They close their mind to the very idea of putting themselves in the other's person's shoes.

I'm sure your Avatar looks different..........

 

[Willamena]

Everybody knows the deal is rotten: Old Black Joe's still pickin' cotton for your ribbons and bows. Everybody knows.

 

[Willamena]

I'm sure your Avatar looks different..........

Now it does.

 

[Alceste]

Rights, ideologies (like Feminism) and religions are intregally bound to philosophies. To separate them is to ignore the source of the problem. And I agree that many people on both sides of the issue want to do that. They close their mind to the very idea of putting themselves in the other's person's shoes.

Again, I think you're projecting yourself onto these women, not seeing things through their eyes. Of course we can never know who is doing a better job than who at "putting ourselves in another person's shoes", but in order to see things through their eyes, I must temporarily imagine I am completely ignorant as to what feminism means, and nevertheless willing to proclaim loud and proud my conviction that it is single-handedly responsible for all the evils in the world. To accomplish this feat, I must be willing to imagine that when I watch "Leave it to Beaver" and "Murphy Brown" I am seeing a 100 % accurate, clear-eyed, realistic view of what real life is like, and how it has changed. I must suspend my capacity for critical thinking, stamp out my considerable self-esteem, embrace infantile feelings of helplessness, let my submissive sexual fantasies run rampant over every aspect of my life, and above all, I must blame my personal feelings of failure and inadequacy on stronger, braver, more capable, more intelligent, more versatile more independent women than myself. If I do all of the above, then I have no problem seeing the world through their eyes.

However, intense feelings of neurosis, belligerent, condescending ignorance and repressed self-loathing is an uncomfortable state to maintain. You get around that problem by pretending these women are actually deeply philosophical and well-informed. I get around it by saying "Well, what a bunch of intolerable morons". Both of us are equally subjective, and both of us have taken a stab at seeing through their eyes. I simply reject their POV while you attempt to embrace and justify it.

 

[Enoch07]

Again, I think you're projecting yourself onto these women, not seeing things through their eyes. Of course we can never know who is doing a better job than who at "putting ourselves in another person's shoes", but in order to see things through their eyes, I must temporarily imagine I am completely ignorant as to what feminism means, and nevertheless willing to proclaim loud and proud my conviction that it is single-handedly responsible for all the evils in the world. To accomplish this feat, I must be willing to imagine that when I watch "Leave it to Beaver" and "Murphy Brown" I am seeing a 100 % accurate, clear-eyed, realistic view of what real life is like, and how it has changed. I must suspend my capacity for critical thinking, stamp out my considerable self-esteem, embrace infantile feelings of helplessness, let my submissive sexual fantasies run rampant over every aspect of my life, and above all, I must blame my personal feelings of failure and inadequacy on stronger, braver, more capable, more intelligent, more versatile more independent women than myself. If I do all of the above, then I have no problem seeing the world through their eyes.

However, intense feelings of neurosis, belligerent, condescending ignorance and repressed self-loathing is an uncomfortable state to maintain. You get around that problem by pretending these women are actually deeply philosophical and well-informed. I get around it by saying "Well, what a bunch of intolerable morons". Both of us are equally subjective, and both of us have taken a stab at seeing through their eyes. I simply reject their POV while you attempt to embrace and justify it.

You have never met a traditional woman then. It is a shame you base your beliefs on silly t.v. shows. Perhaps this is the problem with people today, too much t.v. and not enough life experience. You could never understand the traditional woman's PoV because you misrepresent their ideals and are heavily biased against them.

 

[Aquitaine]

Ouch! Uh-oh it's getting tense here, QUICK - send forth thy lolcats to dispense the tension!

 

[Autodidact]

You have never met a traditional woman then. It is a shame you base your beliefs on silly t.v. shows. Perhaps this is the problem with people today, too much t.v. and not enough life experience. You could never understand the traditional woman's PoV because you misrepresent their ideals and are heavily biased against them.

Alceste is not responding to "traditional women," whatever that means. She's responding to the women in the OP. I would not consider them traditional. They sound nothing like my mother, for example.

 

[Alceste]

Alceste is not responding to "traditional women," whatever that means. She's responding to the women in the OP. I would not consider them traditional. They sound nothing like my mother, for example.

Thanks for hopping in there. I have already said I'm not going to respond to Enoch unless he demonstrates some rudimentary comprehension of any one of my comments, but it's always nice when someone else does it for me.

 

[Autodidact]

So enoch, do you think women should be submissive to men?

 

[gnomon]

Nothing, I'm not saying there's anything wrong with them, I'm just pointing out my own observations.

Unfortunately, the "message" of Feminism is being blurred and "misrepresented" by Women who use it as an excuse to slag off Men all the time, and spout out female superiority. Not only that, but if I Man were to return the attitudes, he'd instantly be branded a Sexist Chauvenist Pig.

But when a Woman bad mouths Men, in person or on TV - everybody applauds. I think it's an attitude that needs to be distanced from "Feminism", because a lot of people are now lumping *Mysandry, Female Superiority* with *Feminism*.

In my opinion the individuals doing the greatest job of blurring feminism are those who created the manifesto.

 

[gnomon]

You have never met a traditional woman then. It is a shame you base your beliefs on silly t.v. shows. Perhaps this is the problem with people today, too much t.v. and not enough life experience. You could never understand the traditional woman's PoV because you misrepresent their ideals and are heavily biased against them.

Which tradition?

Why does this word put forth a singular ideal image in people's mind?

 

[Willamena]

Again, I think you're projecting yourself onto these women, not seeing things through their eyes. Of course we can never know who is doing a better job than who at "putting ourselves in another person's shoes", but in order to see things through their eyes, I must temporarily imagine I am completely ignorant as to what feminism means, and nevertheless willing to proclaim loud and proud my conviction that it is single-handedly responsible for all the evils in the world. To accomplish this feat, I must be willing to imagine that when I watch "Leave it to Beaver" and "Murphy Brown" I am seeing a 100 % accurate, clear-eyed, realistic view of what real life is like, and how it has changed. I must suspend my capacity for critical thinking, stamp out my considerable self-esteem, embrace infantile feelings of helplessness, let my submissive sexual fantasies run rampant over every aspect of my life, and above all, I must blame my personal feelings of failure and inadequacy on stronger, braver, more capable, more intelligent, more versatile more independent women than myself. If I do all of the above, then I have no problem seeing the world through their eyes.

However, intense feelings of neurosis, belligerent, condescending ignorance and repressed self-loathing is an uncomfortable state to maintain. You get around that problem by pretending these women are actually deeply philosophical and well-informed. I get around it by saying "Well, what a bunch of intolerable morons". Both of us are equally subjective, and both of us have taken a stab at seeing through their eyes. I simply reject their POV while you attempt to embrace and justify it.

If that's your idea of wearing the other's shoes, it's not a wonder why you express the feelings you do.

 

[Alceste]

If that's your idea of wearing the other's shoes, it's not a wonder why you express the feelings you do.

<sarcasm>Ooh, nice smack-down.</sarcasm>

Got any meaningful rebuttal? No? Thought not.

 

[Willamena]

Got any meaningful rebuttal? No? Thought not.

No. I don't.

 

[Enoch07]

So enoch, do you think women should be submissive to men?

I do not think women should be submissive to men or vice versa (all relationships should be 50/50 imho), UNLESS they desire to be that way. It is every woman's right to choose the lifestyle she wishes to live. It is wrong for anyone, even Feminist to belittle any women who wants to live this way, as long as they have chosen that lifestyle for themselves.

 

[Kathryn]

Of course we can never know who is doing a better job than who at "putting ourselves in another person's shoes", but in order to see things through their eyes, I must temporarily imagine I am completely ignorant as to what feminism means, and nevertheless willing to proclaim loud and proud my conviction that it is single-handedly responsible for all the evils in the world. To accomplish this feat, I must be willing to imagine that when I watch "Leave it to Beaver" and "Murphy Brown" I am seeing a 100 % accurate, clear-eyed, realistic view of what real life is like, and how it has changed. I must suspend my capacity for critical thinking, stamp out my considerable self-esteem, embrace infantile feelings of helplessness, let my submissive sexual fantasies run rampant over every aspect of my life, and above all, I must blame my personal feelings of failure and inadequacy on stronger, braver, more capable, more intelligent, more versatile more independent women than myself. If I do all of the above, then I have no problem seeing the world through their eyes.

However, intense feelings of neurosis, belligerent, condescending ignorance and repressed self-loathing is an uncomfortable state to maintain. You get around that problem by pretending these women are actually deeply philosophical and well-informed. I get around it by saying "Well, what a bunch of intolerable morons". Both of us are equally subjective, and both of us have taken a stab at seeing through their eyes. I simply reject their POV while you attempt to embrace and justify it.

Here's another version of this (and by the way, I thought your remark about Willamena being sarcastic was sort of a moot point in light of this previous thread from you, which is absolutely dripping in the stuff):

"In order for me to put myself in the shoes of a feminist (as defined by the actions of contemporary "feminists" who have, by the way, totally redefined, in the worst sense of the word, the true meaning of feminism), I must temporarily imagine I am completely ignorant as to what true feminism means, and nevertheless willing to proclaim loud and proud my conviction that it is single-handedly responsible for all the terrific things in the world of women today - third trimester abortion on demand, babies raised from 6 weeks on in crowded daycares, single moms who file for no fault divorce because their husbands "verbally abused" them by pointing out the fact that they are overweight, bitter, frigid, and put their career before their marriage, hectic schedules that include a 10 hour work day, an hour commute, fast food dinners eaten in the car or, on a good day, dinner at home in front of the tv watching the 10 pm news, latchkey kids, women support groups that disparage and undermine the true qualities of men, sexual freedom that results in STDs, unwanted pregnancies, disdain from our teenage daughters as they watch us act like whores, and the creeping suspicion that somehow when we asked for it all, we got it all...and all includes some things we didn't really bargain for.

To accomplish this feat, I must be willing to imagine that when I listen to my college professors and the leaders of my local feminazi groups, I am getting a 100 % accurate, clear-eyed, realistic view of what real life is like, and how it has changed. I must suspend my capacity for critical thinking, stamp out my considerable self-hatred, embrace infantile feelings of entitlement, let my aggressive and frustrated sexual fantasies run rampant over every aspect of my life, and above all, I must blame my personal feelings of failure and inadequacy on stronger, braver, more feminine, more secure, happier, more honorable, more capable, more intelligent, more versatile more honest women than myself. If I do all of the above, then I have no problem seeing the world through their eyes.

However, intense feelings of neurosis, belligerent, condescending ignorance and repressed self-loathing is an uncomfortable state to maintain. You get around that problem by pretending that less "feminist minded" women are actually deeply philosophical and well-informed. I get around it by saying "Well, what a bunch of intolerable, backwards morons". Both of us are equally subjective, and both of us have taken a stab at seeing through their eyes. I simply reject their POV while you attempt to embrace and justify it."

Now - that's a bit over the top, I admit it, and of course I wouldn't throw that sort of garbage at anyone in any seriousness. But if you're offended by such a ridiculous rant, what you're feeling NOW is "walking a mile in the other's shoes."

 

[Aquitaine]

I do not think women should be submissive to men or vice versa (all relationships should be 50/50 imho), UNLESS they desire to be that way. It is every woman's right to choose the lifestyle she wishes to live. It is wrong for anyone, even Feminist to belittle any women who wants to live this way, as long as they have chosen that lifestyle for themselves.

Enoch, I gotta disagree with you there.

Or atleast I do depending on what you meant by that post. Do you mean that you don't mind if a Woman sacrifices her basic Human/Civil Rights even if she so chooses?

If you're referring to her being a Housewife, don't forget that that doesn't mean she's submissive etc.

I don't think anyone should be "allowed" to forfit their own Human/Civil Rights. Perhaps you could explain in greater detail, your opinion on this matter?