Women Liberating Themselves from Liberation

[Alceste]

I guess you could say the same though for terms like "man's job" "woman's job" too, right?

'Cause they're just words, they don't neccessarily mean or intend to enforce unequal treatment, unless certain people interpret the terms differently, or in a total literal sense.

Yeah, which is why it's the mentality I choose criticize, not the words used to describe it.

It's the same with (from my experience) "Feminism". I've always been baffled as to why it wasn't termed "Equalism" from day one, but then again it's not really a big deal. However, there does exist a stereotype that "Feminist" means Female-Superiority, or just plain Mysandry. Unfortunately however, despite that not being the actual true "Feminism", there are some Women I know IRL, and a few groups who do abuse "Feminism" to push their anti-Male agendas or opinions etc. But then again that happens with most ideologies though, so I guess it ain't anything new.

I think the context of where we grew up might have something to do with it. I grew up among rednecks, and so assumed that "feminist" was synonymous with "masculine" or "militant" or "anti-male". Nobody tried to teach me this, it's just what I picked up from the context that people around me used the word "feminism" in. Luckily, I had a friend who set me straight on this. She was the epitome of a third wave punk rock feminist, and I told her she didn't SEEM like a feminist - after all, she was wildly, uncontrollably feminine. Didn't look a bit like Kevin Bacon, not big on confrontation, not a scrap of seething gender-related anger anywhere. She said "Oh, no no no no, you've got it all wrong. It's very simple: If you're a woman, and you think that's probably a good thing, then you're a feminist".

 

[Kilgore Trout]

True, to which I pointed out it's the taking of a life. Women get to take young childrens lives legally, men do not. That's not equality.

Actually, neither men nor women can legally kill children. Men and women can both legally get an abortion if pregnant.

Sometimes words just mean what they mean, not what you want them to mean.

Indeed - like "abortion."

 

[Aquitaine]

True, to which I pointed out it's the taking of a life. Women get to take young childrens lives legally, men do not. That's not equality for men or for children. It's sexist and ageist.

Sometimes words just mean what they mean, not what you want them to mean. You're fighting a losing battle if you want to stop people using the word "feminism" to describe aspects of an egalitarian agenda that have particular significance for women.

And that's a problem. We wont reach real equality untill people stop fighting men vs women's rights and start looking at them as human rights. But that's not my point. I'm saying it's the feminine aspect of the word that makes it inaproriate for men. I support equal rights, and according to posters here that automatically makes me a femininist. It's disturbing that a gender nuetral phrase or word isn't used.

Perhaps we should start one, right here, right now?

From this day forth, I declare you, Humanistheart, an Equalist.

I guess I'll join you too ^_^

 

[Aquitaine]

Yeah, which is why it's the mentality I choose criticize, not the words used to describe it.

I think the context of where we grew up might have something to do with it. I grew up among rednecks, and so assumed that "feminist" was synonymous with "masculine" or "militant" or "anti-male". Nobody tried to teach me this, it's just what I picked up from the context that people around me used the word "feminism" in. Luckily, I had a friend who set me straight on this. She was the epitome of a third wave punk rock feminist, and I told her she didn't SEEM like a feminist - after all, she was wildly, uncontrollably feminine. Didn't look a bit like Kevin Bacon, not big on confrontation, not a scrap of seething gender-related anger anywhere. She said "Oh, no no no no, you've got it all wrong. It's very simple: If you're a woman, and you think that's probably a good thing, then you're a feminist".

Yeah, that stereotype exists in my country too, although that's the same with every ideology - there's always gonna be hardliners and groups who identify themselves under the same label, yet see each other as different. However, I guess there's no real way to describe what "true" Feminism is, since we tend to change/adapt meaning over time.

Form my own personal experience though, many Women who call themselves Feminist, are usually Lesbians or man-haters. LuLz! Don't get me wrong, I don't think that that's the "true face" of Feminism, but it is being hijacked and being used to vehicle Mysandry. Not only that, but interestingly enough, the attitudes of Equality are sort of only one-way (again, from my own personal experience), in that most Women I talk to although support the idea of Women getting "Men's jobs", they don't seem to support the idea of Men getting "Women's jobs" and veiw it as unattractive or laughable.

But, even if it's not a real word, I'll always call myself an "Equalist" just to be pedantic!

 

[Humanistheart]

Actually, neither men nor women can legally kill children. Men and women can both legally get an abortion if pregnant.



Indeed - like "abortion."

There is no legal precedent for men to legally kill their children through abortion or other means. I'm sure if men gained th ability to be pregnant the law would be quickly established, but it's not currently. So the statment stands, women have a legal right to kill their children, men do not (not that I'm advocating it should or shouldn't be, the point is the inequality in legal rights that seem to be ignored in our society).

 

[Humanistheart]

Perhaps we should start one, right here, right now?

From this day forth, I declare you, Humanistheart, an Equalist.

I guess I'll join you too ^_^

This is probably meant as a joke, but Equalist has a nice ring to it... yeah, I like that.

 

[Humanistheart]

Yeah, that stereotype exists in my country too, although that's the same with every ideology - there's always gonna be hardliners and groups who identify themselves under the same label, yet see each other as different. However, I guess there's no real way to describe what "true" Feminism is, since we tend to change/adapt meaning over time.

Form my own personal experience though, many Women who call themselves Feminist, are usually Lesbians or man-haters. LuLz! Don't get me wrong, I don't think that that's the "true face" of Feminism, but it is being hijacked and being used to vehicle Mysandry. Not only that, but interestingly enough, the attitudes of Equality are sort of only one-way (again, from my own personal experience), in that most Women I talk to although support the idea of Women getting "Men's jobs", they don't seem to support the idea of Men getting "Women's jobs" and veiw it as unattractive or laughable.

But, even if it's not a real word, I'll always call myself an "Equalist" just to be pedantic!

Well said.

 

[Willamena]

There is no legal precedent for men to legally kill their children through abortion or other means. I'm sure if men gained th ability to be pregnant the law would be quickly established, but it's not currently. So the statment stands, women have a legal right to kill their children, men do not (not that I'm advocating it should or shouldn't be, the point is the inequality in legal rights that seem to be ignored in our society).

In Canada, at least, the law's position regarding abortion is not gender-specific. Specifically, we had a law and it was shot down. Currently there is no law (here) prohibiting abortion.

 

[Humanistheart]

In Canada, at least, the law's position regarding abortion is not gender-specific. Specifically, we had a law and it was shot down. Currently there is no law (here) prohibiting abortion.

Canada's a little more progressive than my country. I've thought about moving there a few times. My mom's a citizen, I think I have the right to dual citizenship still. How do you means 'specifically' it was shot down?

 

[Aquitaine]

This is probably meant as a joke, but Equalist has a nice ring to it... yeah, I like that.

Then there you go, call yourself one - maybe it'll catch on and others will start using it too. I call myself that - well actually, I just say I support equal rights, but y' know, if someone asked me to catagories myself, I'd say "Equalist"

 

[Kilgore Trout]

There is no legal precedent for men to legally kill their children through abortion or other means. I'm sure if men gained th ability to be pregnant the law would be quickly established, but it's not currently. So the statment stands, women have a legal right to kill their children, men do not (not that I'm advocating it should or shouldn't be, the point is the inequality in legal rights that seem to be ignored in our society).

So your whole complaint hinges on the fact that women have uteruses and men don't? Is it unfair that women can't get prostatectomies?

 

[Willamena]

How do you means 'specifically' it was shot down?

In 1988 Dr. Henry Morgentaler took a case all the way to the Supreme Court of Canada, where it was deemed that the existing law prohibiting ("inhibiting" is probably a more descriptive term) abortion was unconstitutional. It voilates a right spelled out in our Constitution that "everyone has the right to life, liberty, and the security of the person and the right not to be deprived thereof except in accordance with the principles of fundamental justice." The significant phrase that the decision hinged on was "security of person" for the mother. The law was also held to violate the principles of fundamental justice, in that it was so convoluted that no woman would be allowed an abortion anyway, even though it was technically allowed in hospitals with the approval of a committee of doctors.

 

[gnomon]

There is no legal precedent for men to legally kill their children through abortion or other means. I'm sure if men gained th ability to be pregnant the law would be quickly established, but it's not currently. So the statment stands, women have a legal right to kill their children, men do not (not that I'm advocating it should or shouldn't be, the point is the inequality in legal rights that seem to be ignored in our society).

Using one strawman (abortion = legally killing tradition) to somehow support the other (feminism is about perverting society) isn't supporting your case.

Do you know anything about the feminist movements? Do you know anything about the domestic violence women faced and the ignorance from the law before the feminists got involved? Sure as hell wasn't a Christian traditionalist movement that stepped forward on that issue. Rape?

Using a biologically distinct phenomenon as grounds to show legal inequality of opportunity, which others have already pointed out that if a man could become pregnant same laws would apply, has seriously missed the mark.

But it is interesting that you bring up, unwittingly, biological distinctions thus allowing me to repeat my complaint about this silly little manifesto and the individuals behind it. That once again we have a religious themed organization who will teach their children BS about human sexuality, sexual development and gender development and helping to keep American children ignorant. But hey, why try to stick to historical and biological accuracy when pushing an agenda.

As long as it makes them feel good.

Yay for them!:clap

many Women who call themselves Feminist, are usually Lesbians or man-haters. LuLz!

And what's wrong with a lesbian feminist? Is that a polite way of stating dyke?

 

[Nanda]

First of all we've already been through this. You have every legal right men have plus more, abortion. You have more legal rights then men.

Your arguement is incredibly weak, and everyone in this thread has said as much, yet you keep coming back to it. Can we assume that this is because you have no other arguement?

I know people say math isn't womens strong suite but I assumed that was a stereotype, sheesh.

I haven't made any sexist comments about you, and yet, this is your second sexist comment. Why is that?

Second of all, is the prefice of feminist, it has feminie in it. Not something for men.

No, it has "fem" in it because it pertains to women's rights. Anyone can be a feminist. Botanists aren't plants, you know.

Feminist would be more accurate as : the belief that women are superieor to men, as they do nothing to help men when they're behind women in society.

Again, what are you basing this on? Just saying something doesn't make it true, and you've yet to supply any credible evidence. If you have no credible evidence for your beliefs, then what are you basing them on?

The original feminists desrved the definition, back when they were behind men, now that your ahead in some areas and equal in others, it's a rather pointless and inaccurate title.

Not to quibble, but we're actually still behind in some areas. Salary, for example. Things are much better, granted, but there are still prevalent sexist attitudes in this country, and as long as that's true, I believe that there is still a need for feminism.

 

[Kathryn]

I believe that a true feminist acknowledges and supports every woman's right to choose her role and live her life free from discrimination based on her gender. These roles may include lifestyles that individual feminists find repulsive.

I also think that any feminist who would deny a woman the right to teach her children what she believes is right or wrong should ask themselves if they want someone interfering with THEIR right to teach their own children what they believe is right or wrong.

As a feminist who has been both the traditional wife/stay at home mother, and the working, career-oriented woman - as a woman who has persevered thru and triumphed over abuse, prejudice, divorce, poverty and job discrimination, I know that there are pros and cons to EVERY lifestyle that a woman chooses, and there are also both negative and positive effects on her family with each of those choices.

I believe that anyone who tells you differently is either in denial or they are being less than honest - with themselves and others.

Be strong, know your values and live them, and be as independent as possible. Demand your rights - and respect and further the rights of others.

 

[Autodidact]

I don't think anyone's talking about women not being able to vote.

And who do they think got them the right to vote, if not the feminists they claim to despise?
You forget that in its day the idea that women could vote was a radical, feminist, anti-traditional innovation that took over 50 years to bring about.

 

[Autodidact]

To me, feminism is supporting equal rights for women, equal opportunity. What does it mean to you?

Uh huh, like the equal right to vote, a right we didn't have for the first 150 years of our nation's history.

 

[Autodidact]

Who distains the feminism that gave women the vote? Anyone here?

The women in the OP.

 

[Autodidact]

Haha. . . I like to simplify, but that simplified right over my head.

A gender role is the role womanhood (or manhood) fills. It's a. . . cultural behavior filled by a stereotype (a represenational archetype). Wo(mb)-man fills the role of mother to children, wife to husband, sister to brother.

Traditionally, that role did not include the right to vote, own property, sit on a jury, or have custody of children. Those were all part of the male role.

 

[Autodidact]

Kids these days have it figured out. It's a non-issue about being equal, of course they are, but they have no problem adopting traditional roles. They do it because it's comfortable and natural.

It's neither comfortable nor natural for me, thank you very much, and I prefer to keep the right to decide what's comfortable and natural for me and have the right to live it, a right these women want to deny me.

Traditional roles means no employment outside the home, no property, no money, no freedom to choose a profession, no public speaking, no custody of children, no vote, no right to be on a jury. I don't find that very comfortable or natural, and I doubt that these women do either.