Would God allow a false prophet to claim a new Law and commandments?

[danieldemol]

Because you say so?

Nope, because there are thousands of documented false prophets that were not physically struck down by God.

The only way to interpret that verse for it to make any sense is the way @Tony Bristow-Stagg did as far as i’m aware.

 

[CG Didymus]

I see the book of Mormon as a confusion of Bible quotes mixed with?

If you are going to leave it to me, I'd say Joseph Smith made it up... yet Mormons are a very successful religion. So, if he did make it up, and it didn't come from God, then what does that say about needing God to be real to make a religion work? It can be fantasy... but as long as the people believe it is true, it becomes as if real.

The more to the point observation, is what death is Deuteronomy 18:20 talking about.

Why do you think it is not a literal putting to death of any false prophet? Since Elijah did put to death the prophet of Baal.

They have proved a lot to me. From those interpretations I have accepted all of Humanity as one people and our planet one home. I have found all Faiths have the same God as the source to their faith, given by Messengers from that same source, which just further proves our Oneness.

All those holy books speak about such a day will come upon humanity at a time where most of the world will turn away from true belief.

The Message given by the Bab and Baha'u'llah is world embracing aimed at the peace and security of all mankind, who else is offering that path, with a sound vision as to how it can be achieved, in these troubled times, in a new way, that has a world embracing vision, transcending all National boarders?

So if all that proves not a thing to you CG, where does one have to look?

All the best CG, I see you as a good friend and always happy to chat, one day you will have difficult choices in regards to all that we have discussed over the last few years, you know we will always be here to answer questions, obligation free.

RegardsTony

Tony has anyone from another religion accepted the Baha'i Faith? And has any Baha'i left the Faith because of something they learned here on the forum? These debates go around in circles and part of the fault is with the Baha'i, because some don't give clear answers and use what Old Badger and Vinayaka call "Double Speak."

But it would be great if Baha'i could implement some of their teachings. But, it seems like all they can do is talk about it, since they have to obey the government. Like in the U.S. we have the horrible situation at the border. People walking hundreds of miles to get here and then are turned away. We have big corporations polluting the world, but our current government doesn't believe there is an environmental problem. So where are the Baha'is?

And what about a day when humanity will "turn" away from true belief? That is one problem I have with how the Baha'is say things are supposed to happen. In Revelation, things get bad, real bad, but Christ has not come yet. When he does come... evil is done away with and everything is made new then, not years, or decades, or even centuries later. Revelation never says that Christ comes riding in on his white horse and the rulers of the Earth reject him and he gets thrown in prison.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

So therefore The Bab and Baha'u'llah must be true prophets because God didn't cut their throats?

The Quran verse is saying that the teachings will have no influence. The Word of God is the blood pumping through the arteries of humanity. If the blood is poison, God will not allow it to make sick all the body of humanity.

This passage shows how this happens

"Witness how the world is being afflicted with a fresh calamity every day. Its tribulation is continually deepening. From the moment the Súriy-i-Ra'ís (Tablet to Ra'ís) was revealed until the present day, neither hath the world been tranquillized, nor have the hearts of its peoples been at rest. At one time it hath been agitated by contentions and disputes, at another it hath been convulsed by wars, and fallen a victim to inveterate diseases. Its sickness is approaching the stage of utter hopelessness, inasmuch as the true Physician is debarred from administering the remedy, whilst unskilled practitioners are regarded with favor, and are accorded full freedom to act." (Gleanings from the Writings of Bahá'u'lláh: XVI: 39-40; The World Order of Bahá'u'lláh: 194)

Regards Tony

 

[Ebionite]

Nope, because there are thousands of documented false prophets that were not physically struck down by God.

For example?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

If you are going to leave it to me, I'd say Joseph Smith made it up... yet Mormons are a very successful religion. So, if he did make it up, and it didn't come from God, then what does that say about needing God to be real to make a religion work? It can be fantasy... but as long as the people believe it is true, it becomes as if real.

I would not disagree with you, but I have other frames of reference I would consider. I will offer a further thought.

I see that the Holy Spirit pervades all of us and that is the Spirit of the Messengers. Thus each of us has the potential of that image and each of us in this world are in tune with that spirit only to the extent of our spiritual awareness.

Thus to me Joseph Smith had experiences that connected him with both the Bab and Baha'u'llah, that I see He was not able to distinguish from his own worldly attachments. I see God also works in this way, there is a little Truth shining from all of us. Abdul'baha offers that is all we should look for in each other. In that way, the worldly attractions soon become part of the background and not part of what motivates us for the good of all.

Why do you think it is not a literal putting to death of any false prophet? Since Elijah did put to death the prophet of Baal.

I see those stories are metaphor and full of symbolism. It is worth considering that Baha'u'llah also put to death the Ottoman Rulers and brought the Ottoman empire to its ruin. All those letters, that brought their death, or gave life to those that heeded the warnings in some way, are available here to be read The Summons of the Lord of Hosts | Bahá’í Reference Library

Those letters also seized all power from the Church's and Ministers, they no longer have the power they used to wild over peoples own choices. That is why we now have the ability for independent search for truth and being able to practice it.

Tony has anyone from another religion accepted the Baha'i Faith? And has any Baha'i left the Faith because of something they learned here on the forum? These debates go around in circles and part of the fault is with the Baha'i, because some don't give clear answers and use what Old Badger and Vinayaka call "Double Speak."

Most of the Baha'i was from another Faith or no Faith, except of course now there are a few generations from early believers who have been born into the Faith and are given the choice at the age of 15.

I see clear answers are given, but we are not here to convert any person, as that is not something we can or would want to do. As such I see the confusion is of ones own making. What is the motivation of that other person? As it is our choices that will find our unity, or will push us away from how it will happen.

An example is that if a Baha'i says the motivation is not about power of rule over this world and another debates that it is the motivation of the Baha'i, all the while not being a Baha'i, how can a Baha'i clear that up? It is that persons choice to remain with their view, that is not supported by the Baha'i view, that was made clear.

I have no motivation but to share a world embracing vision. I have no need for any other person to see the world as I do.

Peace be to one and all, Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

But it would be great if Baha'i could implement some of their teachings. But, it seems like all they can do is talk about it, since they have to obey the government. Like in the U.S. we have the horrible situation at the border. People walking hundreds of miles to get here and then are turned away. We have big corporations polluting the world, but our current government doesn't believe there is an environmental problem. So where are the Baha'is?

The Baha'i are in each community offering them the chance to build strong loving communities based in virtues and service to the community. The question best asked may be where are all the participants?

If you look at the Normanton Baha'i Website , or Facebook Page, or my own FB page, or hear any conversation I have in the community, or participate in helping when one can, then you will see that it is on offer. But I wait, I patiently wait for people to make their own choices, as the despair grows, one day soon they may begin to take up the choice offered?

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

And what about a day when humanity will "turn" away from true belief? That is one problem I have with how the Baha'is say things are supposed to happen. In Revelation, things get bad, real bad, but Christ has not come yet. When he does come... evil is done away with and everything is made new then, not years, or decades, or even centuries later. Revelation never says that Christ comes riding in on his white horse and the rulers of the Earth reject him and he gets thrown in prison.

That to me is all up to you to sort out. I always consider Christ will only come when Christ is in our Heart and embraced on a worldly scale as promised by Jesus. That day, when the mass will have Christ in their heart, is still yet to come, but the 'Glory of God', the 'Father' is now on the throne.

Revelation to me jumps in and out of timelines in this world, it is an all embracing vision that tells of the times up to the appearance of the Bab and Baha'u'llah, with other glimpses that go beyond even those Twin Revelations. I see Revelation talks about a scope that embraces the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last. It is a book that will still giving meaning 1,000 and may be 500,000 years from now.

Regards Tony

 

[oldbadger]

Then there is the other problem, religious people that "hide" their sinning from their church going friends.

True.
And religious people who talk on about their spirituality and religious zeal and such, and then boast about their large homes, or their wealth etc etc. A kind of 'morality' schizophrenia, imo.

 

[Trailblazer]

Well, if your belief in your God makes no difference to you, your actions or your lifestyle, then there cannot be much fruit in it.
Judge them by their fruits.

I was not implying that my belief in God makes no difference to me, my actions or my lifestyle.
What I believe affects how I live and behave.

 

[oldbadger]

Nope, because there are thousands of documented false prophets that were not physically struck down by God.

Of course. God is either unaware of us or disinterested in us.
The above fact supports Deism exactly.

 

[danieldemol]

For example?

Lets go through the list and you can tell me where it is recorded God struck them down. For starters check out Moses Botarel Botarel, Moses ben Isaac | Encyclopedia.com

 

[Ebionite]

Lets go through the list and you can tell me where it is recorded God struck them down. For starters check out Moses Botarel Botarel, Moses ben Isaac | Encyclopedia.com

Why do you think that he should have died earlier than he did?

 

[danieldemol]

Why do you think that he should have died earlier than he did?

So a man dying of old age due to natural causes without having his life cut short in any way is a sign that God is cutting them down?! Well that explains Yosef Yitzchak Schneerson who lived for 70 years passing away in 1950 then lol

 

[Ebionite]

So a man dying of old age due to natural causes without having his life cut short in any way is a sign that God is cutting them down?!

Of course not. You haven't shown that he did anything worthy of death.

 

[danieldemol]

Of course not. You haven't shown that he did anything worthy of death.

So he claimed to be "Atzmus u'mehus alein vi er hat zich areingeshtalt in a guf" (Yiddish and English for: "Essence and Existence [of God] which has placed itself in a body"),[10] and to be the Messiah.[11][12][13][14] and you reckon that God would strike down any false prophet who speaks of God "a word in my name which I have not commanded him to speak... ...shall die" and you reckon Yosef Yitzchak Schneersohn has not done enough according to that verse to be physically cut down?

 

[Ebionite]

So he claimed to be "Atzmus u'mehus alein vi er hat zich areingeshtalt in a guf" (Yiddish and English for: "Essence and Existence [of God] which has placed itself in a body"),[10] and to be the Messiah.[11][12][13][14] and you reckon that God would strike down any false prophet who speaks of God "a word in my name which I have not commanded him to speak... ...shall die" and you reckon Yosef Yitzchak Schneersohn has not done enough according to that verse to be physically cut down?

I wasn't talking about "God", the verse refers to YHWH and AFAIK Schneersohn never spoke in his name.

 

[danieldemol]

I wasn't talking about "God", the verse refers to YHWH and AFAIK Schneersohn never spoke in his name.

So what would that look like to you, for example if I were to say, "In the name of YHWH, worship YHWH's mighty beak" would that constitute speaking in the name of YHWH? If I were to say that how long should I have to wait to be struck down, and should it be a life cut tragically short, or can i just live to old age and eventually die?

ETA and in the context of the original Quran verse did Muhammad speak in the name of YHWH when He made His claim about the heart artery being slashed by God?

 

[Ebionite]

So what would that look like to you, for example if I were to say, "In the name of YHWH, worship YHWH's mighty beak" would that constitute speaking in the name of YHWH?

The language Moses used was "I am YHWH".

If I were to say that how long should I have to wait to be struck down, and should it be a life cut tragically short, or can i just live to old age and eventually die?

I have no idea, I guess that would depend on your intent. The text says "shall die". But if you think that it's a sensible experiment then please don't let me stop you.

 

[Trailblazer]

In this thread the Baha'is again are trying to show using another religion's Scripture, how Baha'u'llah must be true and from God. And again, the arguments go around in circles and prove nothing.

I don't know what the other Baha'is are doing. My life has taken a sudden turn so I have not been on this forum much as my usual talkative self much, except to respond to posts in brief.

I suffered a recent loss so I don't know how much of this of physical vs. psychological. I have doctor running a gamut of tests.

Maybe this is a wake-up call for me because I have been spending too much time on forums and I finally got to the end of my rope so I am in for a lifestyle change. Lately, as I approach retirement, I have been thinking of participating in Baha'i activities to see if I can do something useful for the community.

But I know one thing; I got tired of arguing about 'which religion is right' a long time ago.
So maybe this is God's way of trying to tell me something.

 

[danieldemol]

The language Moses used was "I am YHWH".


I have no idea, I guess that would depend on your intent. The text says "shall die". But if you think that it's a sensible experiment then please don't let me stop you.

Well if you have no idea about how or when I should die and it could just be death of old age then there is no testable nature to your hypothesis and it can't be falsified due to vagueness.