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Would God condemn a person to hell who's never heard his word?

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
No, I don't believe He would. I have no scripture to base this on, but one cannot reject The Word if he has never heard it.

Therefore, it is preferrable not to know anything about Jesus and the Bible.

So, the good news, are actully bad news, because they expect a follow up, or else ...

If, on the other hand, Jesus would know in advance who would accept the good news, then the news are neither good nor bad. Just useless.

Ciao

- viole
 

ChristineES

Tiggerism
Premium Member
Therefore, it is preferrable not to know anything about Jesus and the Bible.

So, the good news, are actully bad news, because they expect a follow up, or else ...

If, on the other hand, Jesus would know in advance who would accept the good news, then the news are neither good nor bad. Just useless.

Ciao

- viole
There is very little chance of someone of not hearing about Him, unless he or she was born and lives on a desert island somewhere, so your argument is a rather flimsy one . Edited to add: It would also depend on how the person behaves. If the person is the type who finds it fun to kill people, then my answer probably would not apply to him or her (haha). Also, it is just my opinion that I stated and not what the Bible states.(I"ve gotten this answer before, so it is not a new one to me, by the way.)
TTFN, tata for now.
 
Last edited:

Simplelogic

Well-Known Member
I find Thomas Jefferson's words to be relative to this discussion:

I can never join Calvin in addressing his God. He was indeed an atheist, which I can never be; or rather his religion was daemonism. If ever a man worshiped a false God, he did. The being described in his five points, is not the God whom you and I acknowledge and adore, the creator and benevolent governor of the world, but a daemon of malignant spirit. It would be more pardonable to believe in no God at all, than to blaspheme him by the atrocious attributes of Calvin. Indeed, I think that every Christian sect gives a great handle to atheism by their general dogma, that, without a revelation, there would not be sufficient proof of the being of a God. Now one-sixth of mankind only are supposed to be Christians; the other five-sixths then, who do not believe in the Jewish and Christian revelation, are without a knowledge of the existence of a God??

-Thomas Jefferson
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Frankly, the concept that one can only be "saved" by having the politically correct beliefs I find bizarre.
 

Sabour

Well-Known Member
I agree with Muslims on this point. Though I may differ slightly. As far as I know, Muslim's believe that there is a tally system of sorts which God uses to judge our righteousness. This means that a man can't know whether he is in right standing with God, he must wait until the day of judgement.

The Hebrew scriptures do NOT teach that there is a tally system. If an evil man turns from his evil and follows God's commandments then it says his evil deeds are ERASED. This means that they are not being weighed against each other.

21But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die. 22All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live…Ezekiel 18: 21-22

Please correct me if I am wrong about Islamic views of God's judgement.

It is true that people can't know for sure at their lives if they will be going to heaven or hell. The point of this is to have people trying to be righteous all the time. The main concern also would be they you never know how one could go astray and be doing a sin and suddenly die on that sin. So we have always to strive to be close to Allah and be righteous. However that is not all, we have to look at the other side also.

Allah gives you assurances in the Quraan,

18:30 Indeed, those who have believed and done righteous deeds - indeed, We will not allow to be lost the reward of any who did well in deeds.

2:112 Yes [on the contrary], whoever submits his face in Islam to Allah while being a doer of good will have his reward with his Lord. And no fear will there be concerning them, nor will they grieve.

2:261 The example of those who spend their wealth in the way of Allah is like a seed [of grain] which grows seven spikes; in each spike is a hundred grains. And Allah multiplies [His reward] for whom He wills. And Allah is all-Encompassing and Knowing.

2:277 Indeed, those who believe and do righteous deeds and establish prayer and give zakah will have their reward with their Lord, and there will be no fear concerning them, nor will they grieve.

4:40 Indeed, Allah does not do injustice, [even] as much as an atom's weight; while if there is a good deed, He multiplies it and gives from Himself a great reward.

As for one who sins against God, there are many things we must know about that. First thing we should know that in Islam, when one embraces it, all his sins are forgiven and he will be like a new born without sins.

Second, there is repentance in Islam which erases the sin. How does one repent?

Repentance grants us forgiveness.

But what is the meaning to repent?

1-To be true about it.
2- Stop doing it again.
3- You have to regret it. Like you don't say I used to steal ,,,, wow they were good old days. You have to regret doing it.
4- Decide not to go back to the same sin in the future
5- If you can return the rights to people you have done damage do, you should


Also here are other references from the Quraan.

Do not despair of God's mercy; He will forgive you of all your sins".Qur'an (39:53).


"Except those who repent, have faith and good deeds, those Allah will charge their sins for good deeds. Certainly Allah is most forgiving and merciful." (Qur'an 25:70)

This is a greatest glad tiding for those who repent and combine their repentance with deep faith and good deeds.

Repentance breeds good deeds, whilst sinning (without repentance) can cause deprivation of obedience altogether. It has been said that committing sins regularly will darken and harden the heart and make purifying it once again a difficult mission. It may even lead a person to reject Allah completely (Allah forbid) or lead him to commit a bigger sin. There is no recourse for a sinner except to ask Allah for forgiveness and to feel great regret for his actions.

Repentance is to repent from the heart, to train the heart into obedi ence and to make a firm resolution never to commit the sin again.

Abu Bakr Al siddiq (May Allah be pleased with him), narrated:

"I heard Prophet Mohammad (PBUH) saying: ‘There isn’t a man who, when he commits a sin, rises, makes ablution, and offers two rak'as of prayers, but Allah forgives his sins.’

Allah says in the Qur'an:

"Those (are the true believers) who, when they commit an evil deed, or wrong their souls, remember Allah, and seek forgiveness for their sins - and who but Allah forgives sins? They do not insist upon the sins they have committed, and they know (that Allah is forgiving)." (Qur'an 3:135)



Abu Dharr reported: The Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, said:
Fear Allah wherever you are, follow a bad deed with a good deed and it will erase it, and behave with good character toward the people.



So as you see Islam doesn't teach that there is a point where you can safely say ok now I am going to heaven. However there are many ways one would be forgiven for his sins. So yes it is as you described as weighing deeds against each other but there are many ways in Islam where if you truly do it, sins would be forgiven.




I wish that answers the questions.
 

Simplelogic

Well-Known Member
It is true that people can't know for sure at their lives if they will be going to heaven or hell. The point of this is to have people trying to be righteous all the time. The main concern also would be they you never know how one could go astray and be doing a sin and suddenly die on that sin. So we have always to strive to be close to Allah and be righteous. However that is not all, we have to look at the other side also.

Allah gives you assurances in the Quraan,

18:30 Indeed, those who have believed and done righteous deeds - indeed, We will not allow to be lost the reward of any who did well in deeds.

2:112 Yes [on the contrary], whoever submits his face in Islam to Allah while being a doer of good will have his reward with his Lord. And no fear will there be concerning them, nor will they grieve.

2:261 The example of those who spend their wealth in the way of Allah is like a seed [of grain] which grows seven spikes; in each spike is a hundred grains. And Allah multiplies [His reward] for whom He wills. And Allah is all-Encompassing and Knowing.

2:277 Indeed, those who believe and do righteous deeds and establish prayer and give zakah will have their reward with their Lord, and there will be no fear concerning them, nor will they grieve.

4:40 Indeed, Allah does not do injustice, [even] as much as an atom's weight; while if there is a good deed, He multiplies it and gives from Himself a great reward.

As for one who sins against God, there are many things we must know about that. First thing we should know that in Islam, when one embraces it, all his sins are forgiven and he will be like a new born without sins.

Second, there is repentance in Islam which erases the sin. How does one repent?

Repentance grants us forgiveness.

But what is the meaning to repent?

1-To be true about it.
2- Stop doing it again.
3- You have to regret it. Like you don't say I used to steal ,,,, wow they were good old days. You have to regret doing it.
4- Decide not to go back to the same sin in the future
5- If you can return the rights to people you have done damage do, you should


Also here are other references from the Quraan.

Do not despair of God's mercy; He will forgive you of all your sins".Qur'an (39:53).


"Except those who repent, have faith and good deeds, those Allah will charge their sins for good deeds. Certainly Allah is most forgiving and merciful." (Qur'an 25:70)

This is a greatest glad tiding for those who repent and combine their repentance with deep faith and good deeds.

Repentance breeds good deeds, whilst sinning (without repentance) can cause deprivation of obedience altogether. It has been said that committing sins regularly will darken and harden the heart and make purifying it once again a difficult mission. It may even lead a person to reject Allah completely (Allah forbid) or lead him to commit a bigger sin. There is no recourse for a sinner except to ask Allah for forgiveness and to feel great regret for his actions.

Repentance is to repent from the heart, to train the heart into obedi ence and to make a firm resolution never to commit the sin again.

Abu Bakr Al siddiq (May Allah be pleased with him), narrated:

"I heard Prophet Mohammad (PBUH) saying: ‘There isn’t a man who, when he commits a sin, rises, makes ablution, and offers two rak'as of prayers, but Allah forgives his sins.’

Allah says in the Qur'an:

"Those (are the true believers) who, when they commit an evil deed, or wrong their souls, remember Allah, and seek forgiveness for their sins - and who but Allah forgives sins? They do not insist upon the sins they have committed, and they know (that Allah is forgiving)." (Qur'an 3:135)



Abu Dharr reported: The Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, said:
Fear Allah wherever you are, follow a bad deed with a good deed and it will erase it, and behave with good character toward the people.



So as you see Islam doesn't teach that there is a point where you can safely say ok now I am going to heaven. However there are many ways one would be forgiven for his sins. So yes it is as you described as weighing deeds against each other but there are many ways in Islam where if you truly do it, sins would be forgiven.




I wish that answers the questions.

This is very close to the Hebrew model:


24But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? None of his righteous deeds that he hath done shall be remembered; for his trespass that he trespassed, and for his sin that he hath sinned, for them shall he die. 25Yet ye say: The way of the Lord is not equal. Hear now, O house of Israel: Is it My way that is not equal? is it not your ways that are unequal? 26When the righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, he shall die therefor; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die. 27Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive. 28Because he considereth, and turneth away from all his transgressions that he hath committed, he shall surely live, he shall not die. 29Yet saith the house of Israel: The way of the Lord is not equal. O house of Israel, is it My ways that are not equal? is it not your ways that are unequal? 30Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord GOD. Return ye, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so shall they not be a stumblingblock of iniquity unto you. 31Cast away from you all your transgressions, wherein ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit; for why will ye die, O house of Israel? 32For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith YHVH GOD; wherefore turn yourselves, and live. Ezekiel 18

So beautiful!! It is all about the heart. YHVH wants a man to fall in love with Him and serve Him completely.
 

Geoff-Allen

Resident megalomaniac
I believe in Heaven & Hell.

If you walk around filled with positive thoughts & emotions, that is Heaven.

If you fill yourself with negativity then your experience is going 2 be Hell.

All the best!
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
Therefore, it is preferrable not to know anything about Jesus and the Bible.
So, the good news, are actully bad news, because they expect a follow up, or else ...
If, on the other hand, Jesus would know in advance who would accept the good news, then the news are neither good nor bad. Just useless.
Ciao
- viole

First of all, Jesus does Not know in advance who will accept Matthew 24 v 14 otherwise it would be of No use to internationally proclaim the good news message about God's kingdom as Jesus said it would be done before the end comes of all badness on earth.

We are nearing the coming ' time of separation ' on earth of Matthew 25 vs 31,32.
That ' harvest time' , so to speak, is for the separating sheep/wheat from goat/weed/tares.
Those people are alive on earth, and the humble 'sheep' can remain alive on earth and continue living on earth right into the start of Jesus' coming 1000-year kingdom reign over earth, or over earthly subjects of God's kingdom- Psalm 72 v 8

So, yes it is preferable to hear about the good news of God's kingdom in the hands of Christ Jesus in order to make a choice if one wants Jesus as king of God's kingdom government.

There is a BIG difference between the permanent non-biblical hell theory or philosophy and the Bible's temporary hell [ grave ] where the dead sleep in death until resurrected out of hell. - Ecclesiastes 9 v 5; Psalms 6 v 5; 13 v 3; 115 v 17; 146 v 4; Daniel 12 vs 2,13; John 11 vs 11-14; Acts 2 vs 27,31,32 and Rev. 20 vs 13,14 [ all in hell/grave are ' delivered up ' [ resurrected out of hell/grave] before emptied-out hell is cast into that symbolic ' second death' for vacated hell.

Also as for those who have already died please see Romans 6 v 7. The dead are freed or acquitted from their adamic sins. So, except for those committing the unforgivable sin [ Matthew 12 v 32; Hebrews 6 vs 4-6 ] the majority or mankind will have a healthy physical resurrection back to restored life on earth during Jesus' millennium-long day of reigning over earth- Acts 24 v 15
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
It is true that people can't know for sure at their lives if they will be going to heaven or hell. The point of this is to have people trying to be righteous all the time. The main concern also would be they you never know how one could go astray and be doing a sin and suddenly die on that sin. So we have always to strive to be close to Allah and be righteous. However that is not all, we have to look at the other side also.

Allah gives you assurances in the Quraan,
18:30 Indeed, those who have believed and done righteous deeds - indeed, We will not allow to be lost the reward of any who did well in deeds.
2:112 Yes [on the contrary], whoever submits his face in Islam to Allah while being a doer of good will have his reward with his Lord. And no fear will there be concerning them, nor will they grieve.
2:261 The example of those who spend their wealth in the way of Allah is like a seed [of grain] which grows seven spikes; in each spike is a hundred grains. And Allah multiplies [His reward] for whom He wills. And Allah is all-Encompassing and Knowing.
2:277 Indeed, those who believe and do righteous deeds and establish prayer and give zakah will have their reward with their Lord, and there will be no fear concerning them, nor will they grieve.
4:40 Indeed, Allah does not do injustice, [even] as much as an atom's weight; while if there is a good deed, He multiplies it and gives from Himself a great reward.
As for one who sins against God, there are many things we must know about that. First thing we should know that in Islam, when one embraces it, all his sins are forgiven and he will be like a new born without sins.
Second, there is repentance in Islam which erases the sin. How does one repent?
Repentance grants us forgiveness.
But what is the meaning to repent?
1-To be true about it.
2- Stop doing it again.
3- You have to regret it. Like you don't say I used to steal ,,,, wow they were good old days. You have to regret doing it.
4- Decide not to go back to the same sin in the future
5- If you can return the rights to people you have done damage do, you should
Also here are other references from the Quraan.
Do not despair of God's mercy; He will forgive you of all your sins".Qur'an (39:53).
"Except those who repent, have faith and good deeds, those Allah will charge their sins for good deeds. Certainly Allah is most forgiving and merciful." (Qur'an 25:70)
This is a greatest glad tiding for those who repent and combine their repentance with deep faith and good deeds.
Repentance breeds good deeds, whilst sinning (without repentance) can cause deprivation of obedience altogether. It has been said that committing sins regularly will darken and harden the heart and make purifying it once again a difficult mission. It may even lead a person to reject Allah completely (Allah forbid) or lead him to commit a bigger sin. There is no recourse for a sinner except to ask Allah for forgiveness and to feel great regret for his actions.
Repentance is to repent from the heart, to train the heart into obedi ence and to make a firm resolution never to commit the sin again.
Abu Bakr Al siddiq (May Allah be pleased with him), narrated:
"I heard Prophet Mohammad (PBUH) saying: ‘There isn’t a man who, when he commits a sin, rises, makes ablution, and offers two rak'as of prayers, but Allah forgives his sins.’

Allah says in the Qur'an:
"Those (are the true believers) who, when they commit an evil deed, or wrong their souls, remember Allah, and seek forgiveness for their sins - and who but Allah forgives sins? They do not insist upon the sins they have committed, and they know (that Allah is forgiving)." (Qur'an 3:135)
Abu Dharr reported: The Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, said:
Fear Allah wherever you are, follow a bad deed with a good deed and it will erase it, and behave with good character toward the people.
So as you see Islam doesn't teach that there is a point where you can safely say ok now I am going to heaven. However there are many ways one would be forgiven for his sins. So yes it is as you described as weighing deeds against each other but there are many ways in Islam where if you truly do it, sins would be forgiven.
I wish that answers the questions.


Didn't Jesus know he would be going to hell - Acts 2 vs 27,31,32; Psalm 16 v 10 ?______
Jesus would Not be going to some non-biblical religious-myth hell, but to the Bible's hell.
Jesus taught ' sleep ' in death at John 11 vs 11-14.
Jesus was well educated in the old Hebrew Scriptures which also teach unconscious sleep in death. Such as Ecclesiastes 9 v 5; Psalms 6 v 5; 13 v 3; 115 v 17; 146 v 4; Dan. 12 vs 2,13
So, the ' temporary Bible's hell ' is the grave where the dead sleep in death until resurrected out of hell/grave. Some resurrected to heaven [ Rev. 20 v 6; 5 vs 9,10;2 v 10 ], but the majority of mankind [ John 3 v 13; Acts 2 v 34 ] will have a future resurrection back to healthy physical life on a beautiful paradisaic earth during Jesus' 1000-year kingdom reign over earth. Please notice the ' future tense ' used at Acts 24 v 15 that ' there is going to be ' a resurrection.....

So, people can know at their death they will go to the grave or, in other words, go to the temporary Bible's hell until resurrected out of hell to either heaven, or restored back to healthy physical life on earth such as the people of Hebrews chapter 11 looked forward. -Hebrews 11 vs 13,39

Then, after the dead will be resurrected out of biblical hell [ 'delivered up' Rev. 20 vs 13,14 ] then emptied-out hell is cast vacant into a symbolic ' second death ' for death and hell.

So, people, according to Scripture, can know that at death they can go to the Bible's hell [ grave ], but for those still alive on earth at the soon coming ' time of separation ' on earth of Matthew 25 vs 31,32 the haughty ' goat-like ' people on earth will be destroyed forever.
- Psalm 92 v 7
 
In Islam, every one would be judged accordingly.

If the message of Islam was not properly conveyed to the person, or the person tried his best to to understand it but failed due to misconceptions or never heard about it, than God will test him on the day of judgement.

So if it is not his fault and he was sincere, he will not be held accountable and Allah knows best.

If Allah ever gets satisfied with a Muslim person, then he/she should know that Allah is satisfied. But that is not the case because all Muslims, including prophet Mohammed, continued to call upon Allah until thier last breath, that they should be SHOWN the true path. It means even upon thier deathbeds Muslims have no way of knowing that they have pleased thier god. Right or wrong?
 
First of all, Jesus does Not know in advance who will accept Matthew 24 v 14 otherwise it would be of No use to internationally proclaim the good news message about God's kingdom as Jesus said it would be done before the end comes of all badness on earth.

We are nearing the coming ' time of separation ' on earth of Matthew 25 vs 31,32.
That ' harvest time' , so to speak, is for the separating sheep/wheat from goat/weed/tares.
Those people are alive on earth, and the humble 'sheep' can remain alive on earth and continue living on earth right into the start of Jesus' coming 1000-year kingdom reign over earth, or over earthly subjects of God's kingdom- Psalm 72 v 8

So, yes it is preferable to hear about the good news of God's kingdom in the hands of Christ Jesus in order to make a choice if one wants Jesus as king of God's kingdom government.

There is a BIG difference between the permanent non-biblical hell theory or philosophy and the Bible's temporary hell [ grave ] where the dead sleep in death until resurrected out of hell. - Ecclesiastes 9 v 5; Psalms 6 v 5; 13 v 3; 115 v 17; 146 v 4; Daniel 12 vs 2,13; John 11 vs 11-14; Acts 2 vs 27,31,32 and Rev. 20 vs 13,14 [ all in hell/grave are ' delivered up ' [ resurrected out of hell/grave] before emptied-out hell is cast into that symbolic ' second death' for vacated hell.

Also as for those who have already died please see Romans 6 v 7. The dead are freed or acquitted from their adamic sins. So, except for those committing the unforgivable sin [ Matthew 12 v 32; Hebrews 6 vs 4-6 ] the majority or mankind will have a healthy physical resurrection back to restored life on earth during Jesus' millennium-long day of reigning over earth- Acts 24 v 15

Jesus as a 100% human being did not know who would get into heaven and who would not. But according to Ephesians chap. 1:4 "According as he hath chosen us in him (Jesus) before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love....

Here we see that the choosing of born again believers happened before the believer was even conceived in his/her mother's womb. This tells me clearly that Almighty God knows who would enter heaven into His very presence.
 

Smart_Guy

...
Premium Member
In my religion, and as a direct answer to the topics title, no, He would not.

My source is part verse 49 of chapter 18 that says that God does not do anyone injustice. There is also verse 46 of chapter 41 that clearly implies the same thing.

Those are from the Quran.
 

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
There is very little chance of someone of not hearing about Him, unless he or she was born and lives on a desert island somewhere, so your argument is a rather flimsy one . Edited to add: It would also depend on how the person behaves. If the person is the type who finds it fun to kill people, then my answer probably would not apply to him or her (haha). Also, it is just my opinion that I stated and not what the Bible states.(I"ve gotten this answer before, so it is not a new one to me, by the way.)
TTFN, tata for now.

I don't think it is a flimsy argument. And I am not specifically talking of people today.

I am sure there have been millions who never heard of the so-called good news. Think of all populations that have been visited
by missionaries only in the few last centuries.

From a logical point of view, I think it is quite simple. Let's assume the premise: every person has the same opportunity to be saved independently from historic contingencies. The alternative would render God unjust by allowing conditions that favor a group of people and not the another. And the fact that the reward is eternal suggests that the level of unfairness would be infinite.

So, we have three cases

1) Hearing the good news makes it easier being saved
2) Not hearing the good news makes it easier to be saved
3) Hearing the good news does not affect the chance to be saved

If the same-opportunity premise holds, then 1 and 2 are false and 3 is true. But if 3 is true, then spreading the gospel is impotent towards saving people and it is not clear why Christians sent missionaries all over the world.

I think one of Christians' defenses is that God knows who would have accepted the sacrifice of Jesus if he had been exposed to it. But that would render the sacrifice of Jesus useless as well, not only the news thereof. God could think: let's save the life of my son and let's have a look to whom would have accepted His sacrifice f I actually implemented it. That would reach the same salvation objectives and criteria without the actual gruesome sacrifice of an innocence and, as such, would be ethically preferrable.

Ciao

- viole
 
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Sabour

Well-Known Member
If Allah ever gets satisfied with a Muslim person, then he/she should know that Allah is satisfied. But that is not the case because all Muslims, including prophet Mohammed, continued to call upon Allah until thier last breath, that they should be SHOWN the true path. It means even upon thier deathbeds Muslims have no way of knowing that they have pleased thier god. Right or wrong?

A muslim is required to be a muslim by choice and by making sure that Islam is true and that Quraan is the word of God. So it isn't like we don't know the way, but it is asking God to keep us on the right path and helping us so that we don't go astray because it is through prayers and worship that you draw nearer to God. As you get nearer and nearer, your ranks in the heaven will be higher.

I don't know at what point exactly a person knows if he will be going to heaven or hell.

Actually if a person sees the prophet Muhammad peace be upon him in his dream than it is a glad tidings to heaven.
 
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ChristineES

Tiggerism
Premium Member
I don't think it is a flimsy argument. And I am not specifically talking of people today.

I am sure there have been millions who never heard of the so-called good news. Think of all populations that have been visited
by missionaries only in the few last centuries.

From a logical point of view, I think it is quite simple. Let's assume the premise: every person has the same opportunity to be saved independently from historic contingencies. The alternative would render God unjust by allowing conditions that favor a group of people and not the another. And the fact that the reward is eternal suggests that the level of unfairness would be infinite.

So, we have three cases

1) Hearing the good news makes it easier being saved
2) Not hearing the good news makes it easier to be saved
3) Hearing the good news does not affect the chance to be saved

If the same-opportunity premise holds, then 1 and 2 are false and 3 is true. But if 3 is true, then spreading the gospel is impotent towards saving people and it is not clear why Christians sent missionaries all over the world.

I think one of Christians' defenses is that God knows who would have accepted the sacrifice of Jesus if he had been exposed to it. But that would render the sacrifice of Jesus useless as well, not only the news thereof. God could think: let's save the life of my son and let's have a look to whom would have accepted His sacrifice f I actually implemented it. That would reach the same salvation objectives and criteria without the actual gruesome sacrifice of an innocence and, as such, would be ethically preferrable.

Ciao

- viole
I believe in what Jesus said. I can't speak for others, but I've always had a hard time believing that God condemns all of those who've never heard of Him. That does not mean that people did not need to hear about Him, however. It is better, in my faith, for people to know of Him and know what God commands. I can't really go into to detail with you, I'd have to do that face to face because there is a lot to it.
 

Etritonakin

Well-Known Member
According to the bible, those who are "in Christ" at his return -the dead first and then the living -are raised immortal at that time. That is the first resurrection.
The "rest of the dead" do not live again until after the thousand years following Christ's return.
They are then raised to the judgment -and are judged according to their WORKS -not their beliefs!

Some who have not heard of Christ may have done greater works than some who have!

Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
 
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URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
Jesus as a 100% human being did not know who would get into heaven and who would not. But according to Ephesians chap. 1:4 "According as he hath chosen us in him (Jesus) before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love....
Here we see that the choosing of born again believers happened before the believer was even conceived in his/her mother's womb. This tells me clearly that Almighty God knows who would enter heaven into His very presence.

Please notice ' foundation of the world ' Not the foundation of the 'earth'.
Foundation of the world of sinful mankind. All the righteous blood shed back to righteous Abel
- Matthew 23 v 35

Jesus, as the Lamb of God, was Not slain before the foundation of earth, but slain as the promised 'seed' or Messiah starting with Genesis 3 v 15; Revelation 13 v 8; 17 v 8 B
So, that there would elect ones called to heavenly life was foreordained - 1st Peter 1 v 20 - but as to who would they would be would Not be manifest until the time of Revelation 2 v 10 .
They would have to work out their salvation - Philippians 2 v 12.
After all, can't those holy ones of Hebrews 6 vs 4-6 fall away ?__________
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
According to the bible, those who are "in Christ" at his return -the dead first and then the living -are raised immortal at that time. That is the first resurrection.
The "rest of the dead" do not live again until after the thousand years following Christ's return.
They are then raised to the judgment -and are judged according to their WORKS -not their beliefs!
Some who have not heard of Christ may have done greater works than some who have!
Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

The greater works would involve the international preaching work of Matthew 24 v 14.
Jesus preaching work [ Luke 4 v 43 ] was Not global in scope, but Jesus foretold at Acts 1 v 8 his followers would do a greater or more extensive preaching campaign.

The rest of the dead [ those resurrected on earth during Jesus' millennium-long day of reigning over earth ] do Not come to ' everlasting life ' [ death proof ] until proven faithful by the end of Jesus' 1000-year reign over earth.

Remember too the humble ' sheep' of Matthew 25 vs 31,32 are Not dead ' sheep' but living people on earth at that ' time of separation', and the living sheep can continue to remain alive on earth right into the start of Jesus' millennial reign, and they can continue to live on earth.
They too an gain ' everlasting life ' on earth if they remain faithful to the end of the thousand years.
 

Servant_of_the_One1

Well-Known Member
In Islam a person who has never heard of the message sent to prophet Muhammad peace be upon him will be tested in the hereafter. Let say he fails the test then that person wouldnt believe in Allah in the worldly life.

Whoever goes right, then he goes right only for the benefit of his own self. And whoever goes astray, then he goes astray to his own loss. No one laden with burdens can bear another's burden. And We never punish until We have sent a Messenger (to give warning).}[Quran 17:15]
 
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