Would God condemn a person to hell who's never heard his word?

[joeboonda]

Here is an excellent article on endless genealogies as they pertain to authority to start a church (they don't): (gotta get back on topic asap, so...)

Liberty Gospel Tracts - Previous Questions and Answers - Who really has the authority to start a local church?

 

[Kcnorwood]

Still the bible does say that the only way to heaven is thought jesus Christ So once again if you have never heard of him why would you go to heaven?

 

[joeboonda]

What started us down this line of thinking? I believe I was mainly pointing out that one cannot get to Heaven and avoid Hell by simply doing good deeds. The Bible points out that we all have sinned and that all our good deeds are worthless as far as earning salvation. This is why the Bible states that salvation is a free gift, undeserved, unmerited. This is the Good News. We don't have to worry about trying to do enough good to save ourselves because we can't. God saves us freely by his grace. He does not overlook our sin, the wages of which is death. This is why Jesus died, to pay for our sins so we don't have to. This free gift is given to any who trust in Jesus Christ to have paid for their sins and given us his righteousness in place of ours. That's just an offer I can't refuse.

 

[Ronald]

What started us down this line of thinking? I believe I was mainly pointing out that one cannot get to Heaven and avoid Hell by simply doing good deeds. The Bible points out that we all have sinned and that all our good deeds are worthless as far as earning salvation. This is why the Bible states that salvation is a free gift, undeserved, unmerited. This is the Good News. We don't have to worry about trying to do enough good to save ourselves because we can't. God saves us freely by his grace. He does not overlook our sin, the wages of which is death. This is why Jesus died, to pay for our sins so we don't have to. This free gift is given to any who trust in Jesus Christ to have paid for their sins and given us his righteousness in place of ours. That's just an offer I can't refuse.

The Lamb of G-d was slain from the foundation of the world! Does this fact change any of your Christian beliefs?
By the Grace of G-d!


Baruch Ha’ba B’Shem Adonai
Blessed is he who comes in the name of the LORD! [Ps 118:26 NKJV]
Shalom

 

[Quiddity]

He can condemn people that have heard of it as well. He is God.

 

[logician]

If there was a supposed heaven populated by the xians I have met here on earth, I have no desire to go there.

 

[Ronald]

If there was a supposed heaven populated by the xians I have met here on earth, I have no desire to go there.

Not to worry, they nor anyone will go to Heaven.

Y _ H _ V _ H - And the Lamb will be coming here after the Elements melt with fervant heat (A Koshering of the Earth) then those who are saved will inhabit this new Earth, the New Jerusalem will be inhabited by the Elect, not everyone who said Lord, Lord will enter there-in! Only those who do the will of God. I am sure you find a better class of people who enter the city.

Shalom u'vrachot

 

[nutshell]

I like that term "Koshering of the Earth."

 

[joeboonda]

The Lamb of G-d was slain from the foundation of the world! Does this fact change any of your Christian beliefs?
By the Grace of G-d!


Baruch Ha’ba B’Shem Adonai
Blessed is he who comes in the name of the LORD! [Ps 118:26 NKJV]
Shalom

Nope. Care to elaborate?

 

[joeboonda]

If there was a supposed heaven populated by the xians I have met here on earth, I have no desire to go there.

Heaven will be populated by sinners made just by the blood of God. While Christians are forgiven and spiritually reborn, the old,sin-nature of the flesh is not and they strive with it everyday until transformed at the coming of the Lord. While many Christians are nominal christians, in name only, and many are baby christians who have not learned to walk in the Spirit and yield themselves to God. My advice is to look at Jesus, not at the people, for he is the only sinless one to whose image we are being conformed. At the Rapture, Jesus brings our dead loved ones with him and they receive their newly transformed, incorruptible (sinless), immortal and glorified bodies first, then we who are alive are caught up and transformed in the twinkling of an eye and so shall ever be with the Lord---without sin, full of love, joy, peace, patience, goodness, gentleness, meekness, and temperance. Those are the kind of people who will be in Heaven. The traits and kinds of people you will be with are: murderers, rapists, child molesters, adulterers, haters, liars, thieves,
sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like, lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, proud, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, 3without love, unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not lovers of the good, 4treacherous, rash, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God. Who have not asked forgiveness or trusted Christ to pay for their sins, and will be paying for their own, forever in the Lake of Fire. Have a nice time.

 

[joeboonda]

Not to worry, they nor anyone will go to Heaven.

Y _ H _ V _ H - And the Lamb will be coming here after the Elements melt with fervant heat (A Koshering of the Earth) then those who are saved will inhabit this new Earth, the New Jerusalem will be inhabited by the Elect, not everyone who said Lord, Lord will enter there-in! Only those who do the will of God. I am sure you find a better class of people who enter the city.

Shalom u'vrachot

While there will be a new heaven and earth and that will be the final abode of those who have accepted God's free gift of salvation, we will spend some time in Heaven, too. Jesus said in John 14: 1"Do not let your hearts be troubled. Trust in God[a]; trust also in me. 2In my Father's house are many rooms; if it were not so, I would have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you. 3And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am. 4You know the way to the place where I am going." And in I Thessalonians we read:
13Brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant about those who fall asleep, or to grieve like the rest of men, who have no hope. 14We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18Therefore encourage each other with these words. I believe the Lord will come for us and spare us from the day of wrath, the Great Seven Year Tribulation that is to come upon this earth, and we will be in Heaven with him for at least 7 years and just a bit longer before we return with him at the end of the Tribulation and rule for a thousand years before the new heavens and earth are made.

 

[joeboonda]

Still the bible does say that the only way to heaven is thought jesus Christ So once again if you have never heard of him why would you go to heaven?

Jesus said in Jn 9:
40Some Pharisees who were with him heard him say this and asked, "What? Are we blind too?" 41Jesus said, "If you were blind, you would not be guilty of sin; but now that you claim you can see, your guilt remains.

To me, one of the many things this says is if you were blind, you would not be guilty of sin. In other words, one is not held accountable for not believing something they have never heard of. Yet, these Pharisees who saw Jesus heal the blind man and many other miracles will be held accountable (but now that you claim you can see [yet still reject Christ] your guilt remains.)

An example of a righteous man is Cornelius:

Acts 10 Cornelius Calls for Peter

1At Caesarea there was a man named Cornelius, a centurion in what was known as the Italian Regiment. 2He and all his family were devout and God-fearing; he gave generously to those in need and prayed to God regularly. 3One day at about three in the afternoon he had a vision. He distinctly saw an angel of God, who came to him and said, "Cornelius!" 4Cornelius stared at him in fear. "What is it, Lord?" he asked.
The angel answered, "Your prayers and gifts to the poor have come up as a memorial offering before God. 5Now send men to Joppa to bring back a man named Simon who is called Peter. 6He is staying with Simon the tanner, whose house is by the sea."

Jumping to the end of the story:

34Then Peter began to speak: "I now realize how true it is that God does not show favoritism 35but accepts men from every nation who fear him and do what is right. 36You know the message God sent to the people of Israel, telling the good news of peace through Jesus Christ, who is Lord of all. 37You know what has happened throughout Judea, beginning in Galilee after the baptism that John preached— 38how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and power, and how he went around doing good and healing all who were under the power of the devil, because God was with him.

39"We are witnesses of everything he did in the country of the Jews and in Jerusalem. They killed him by hanging him on a tree, 40but God raised him from the dead on the third day and caused him to be seen. 41He was not seen by all the people, but by witnesses whom God had already chosen—by us who ate and drank with him after he rose from the dead. 42He commanded us to preach to the people and to testify that he is the one whom God appointed as judge of the living and the dead. 43All the prophets testify about him that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name."
44While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message. 45The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles. 46For they heard them speaking in tongues[b] and praising God. Then Peter said, 47"Can anyone keep these people from being baptized with water? They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have." 48So he ordered that they be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked Peter to stay with them for a few days.

As I said, God gives every man a conscience, meaning with knowledge, and a creation showing forth a Creator. Everyone can know when they have done wrong (sinned), and ask the Creator for forgiveness. Having heard the Gospel and trusted Christ, asking forgiveness and accepting the free gift of salvation by grace is far better, knowing we are assured that we have salvation, have passed from death to life, and will never again enter back into condemnation, kept by the power of God who redeemed us with his own blood.

 

[Ronald]

While there will be a new heaven and earth and that will be the final abode of those who have accepted God's free gift of salvation, we will spend some time in Heaven, too. Jesus said in John 14: 1"Do not let your hearts be troubled. Trust in God[a]; trust also in me. 2In my Father's house are many rooms; if it were not so, I would have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you. 3And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am. 4You know the way to the place where I am going." And in I Thessalonians we read:
13Brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant about those who fall asleep, or to grieve like the rest of men, who have no hope. 14We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18Therefore encourage each other with these words. I believe the Lord will come for us and spare us from the day of wrath, the Great Seven Year Tribulation that is to come upon this earth, and we will be in Heaven with him for at least 7 years and just a bit longer before we return with him at the end of the Tribulation and rule for a thousand years before the new heavens and earth are made.

The one you call Savior/God said; Joh 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
Are you saying he mispoke? Ec.12:7 says the spirit returns to God who gave it. Are you saying that there is a hidden text that only Christians can read? Because this scripture says that even the spirit of the Atheist goes back to God who gave it, where is God?
So you will abide with all those people that you abhor.
No, Joe, No one has entered into heaven except the ONE who came down from heaven!
I wouldn't contribute to the ADDERS message! He is the father of lies.
I know your Christian Teachers have lied to you saying "Do you want to go to heaven?"
My Dad (rest his soul) always said "If you cheat me/ lie to me/ rob me once, shame on you! Cheat me/ lie to me/rob me twice shame on ME!"
My Christian Teachers lied to me once. Shame on them! They have been replaced with truth tellers and I am like a Berean and check the scriptures to make sure they keep it truth!
I suggest you make some changes. That is if you intend to enter the City by it's gates!
Rev. 22:14-15

But you don't have to do this, because "You are saved by his grace."
Entry level/least in the kingdom. Song; "I'm Satisfied"

I myself would rather do something to merit, Mt 25:23 His master said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant; you have been faithful over a little, I will set you over much; enter into the joy of your master.’

"If you love me, keep the commandments." Yes sir, at your service!

Shalom u'vracha

 

[joeboonda]

The one you call Savior/God said; Joh 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

It is true Jesus did ascend to Heaven in front of witnesses in his body. Our bodies have not done this. In the verses I mentioned Jesus is preparing a place for us so that where he is we may be also in his Father's House. Paul tells the Thessalonians that Jesus will return with our loved ones who have died who are now with him and we shall all be transformed and meet him in the air and shall ever be with him. Paul said to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord who is in Heaven. In Acts it says:

55But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,
56And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.
59And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.

According to the NT, Jesus is in Heaven and Christians go to Heaven immediately when they die. I believe the NT is God's Word and that is my belief.

Are you saying he mispoke? Ec.12:7 says the spirit returns to God who gave it. Are you saying that there is a hidden text that only Christians can read? Because this scripture says that even the spirit of the Atheist goes back to God who gave it, where is God?
So you will abide with all those people that you abhor.
No, Joe, No one has entered into heaven except the ONE who came down from heaven!

I believe the wicked go to Hell and the righteous to Heaven at death and that is in keeping with the whole of scripture.

I wouldn't contribute to the ADDERS message! He is the father of lies.
I know your Christian Teachers have lied to you saying "Do you want to go to heaven?"
My Dad (rest his soul) always said "If you cheat me/ lie to me/ rob me once, shame on you! Cheat me/ lie to me/rob me twice shame on ME!"
My Christian Teachers lied to me once. Shame on them! They have been replaced with truth tellers and I am like a Berean and check the scriptures to make sure they keep it truth!
I suggest you make some changes. That is if you intend to enter the City by it's gates!
Rev. 22:14-15
But you don't have to do this, because "You are saved by his grace."
Entry level/least in the kingdom. Song; "I'm Satisfied"

I myself would rather do something to merit, Mt 25:23 His master said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant; you have been faithful over a little, I will set you over much; enter into the joy of your master.’

"If you love me, keep the commandments." Yes sir, at your service!

Shalom u'vracha

Well, I believe the Bible, all of it so thats that. I believe salvation is a gift we receive and that position and rewards, etc are a result of the works we do because we have been gracefully saved by having trusted in Christ to have paid for all our sins and given us his righteousness in place of our own which are as filthy rags.

 

[Ronald]

Yes Joe, you will be mighty unhappy if the Jews and the Muslims and the Atheists are not burning in hell! But I tell you now that you have been LIED to about that!
But, you will go blythely along believing a lie. And I am sorry to say but this doesn't reflect your Mashiach!
Close, but close only counts in Horseshoes!

Shalom

 

[logician]

Heaven and hell are the prodcuts of a barbaric age of thought, nothing more.

 

[DavyCrocket2003]

Could someone explain to me why the Lamb of God being slain from the foundation of the world would change a Christian's mind. I'm having trouble with that one.

To those who claim that according to Christian Doctrine only those who hear his word can be saved: Why is that? He says that no man can come unto the father, except by him. Where does it say that they must be aware of this fact. True, Christ tought that no man shall go to heaven unless he does the will of the father. However, it apears to me that the will of the father is for us to love our brothers and sisters of the human race and to strive to live a good, wholesome life. Lot's of people do this. Including plenty of non-Christians.

Have any of you read The Last Battle by C. S. Lewis (one of my heroes)? In this book there is a man who has served a false god all of his life, believing that he was the true God. He lived a wonderful life full of good but all along he was serving a false God. Finally a time comes when he meets Aslan, the real God. He is very fearful to discover that Aslan is really God because he thinks Aslan will punish him. It turns out that Aslan rewards him for a lifetime in his service, even though he didn't know him.

That's how I see it. Many people serve the true God and will go to heaven even though they may not know who they serve exactly or all the specifics about his doctrine. Besides, isn't there supposed to come a time when "every knee shall bow and every toungue confess?" So won't we all know the truth then? And won't it be possible for God to say, in a sense, to those who had never had the truth, but lived righteously, "Well done, thou good and faithful servant, it was me you were serving all along. Enter into the rest prepared for you"?

Why not?

 

[Ronald]

Could someone explain to me why the Lamb of God being slain from the foundation of the world would change a Christian's mind. I'm having trouble with that one.

To those who claim that according to Christian Doctrine only those who hear his word can be saved: Why is that? He says that no man can come unto the father, except by him. Where does it say that they must be aware of this fact. True, Christ tought that no man shall go to heaven unless he does the will of the father. However, it apears to me that the will of the father is for us to love our brothers and sisters of the human race and to strive to live a good, wholesome life. Lot's of people do this. Including plenty of non-Christians.

Have any of you read The Last Battle by C. S. Lewis (one of my heroes)? In this book there is a man who has served a false god all of his life, believing that he was the true God. He lived a wonderful life full of good but all along he was serving a false God. Finally a time comes when he meets Aslan, the real God. He is very fearful to discover that Aslan is really God because he thinks Aslan will punish him. It turns out that Aslan rewards him for a lifetime in his service, even though he didn't know him.

That's how I see it. Many people serve the true God and will go to heaven even though they may not know who they serve exactly or all the specifics about his doctrine. Besides, isn't there supposed to come a time when "every knee shall bow and every toungue confess?" So won't we all know the truth then? And won't it be possible for God to say, in a sense, to those who had never had the truth, but lived righteously, "Well done, thou good and faithful servant, it was me you were serving all along. Enter into the rest prepared for you"?

Why not?

No one comes to the Father except by me. No one can come ot me except the father draw him. Almost a "catch 22"
Yeshua is the "Word of G-d" which is = Torah, with out Torah no one can come to the Father. No one can comprehend Torah unless God opens his eyes.
The Lamb slain from the foundation of the world, was the all knowing G-d making provisions for mankind who he knew would be disobedient. So a path back to God has always been open. Yeshua being slain on earth was a re-enactment of the event at the foundation of the earth. Avraham and Yitsaak was a rehersal of the event also, where G-d supplied the Ram for Yitsaak.
Read Jn.5:24, some are already judged and bypass the "White Throne."
Even though Yeshua said it Joe can't accept it! He is so steeped in the Dogma of Christianity, he can't see the forest for the trees! LOL
G-d is love, G-d is a just G-d, it is not his will that any man perish!

Many are saved, but few are Elected!

Shalom

 

[joeboonda]

Yes Joe, you will be mighty unhappy if the Jews and the Muslims and the Atheists are not burning in hell! But I tell you now that you have been LIED to about that!
But, you will go blythely along believing a lie. And I am sorry to say but this doesn't reflect your Mashiach!
Close, but close only counts in Horseshoes!

Shalom

I did not say or infer any such thing. I showed from from scripture and from the story of Cornelius who was considered righteous because he prayed and gave to the poor that God had favor toward him. I really don't understand what your problem is with me, just because I believe in Jesus? And I am not happy about anyone ending up in Hell.

 

[joeboonda]

No one comes to the Father except by me. No one can come ot me except the father draw him. Almost a "catch 22"
Yeshua is the "Word of G-d" which is = Torah, with out Torah no one can come to the Father. No one can comprehend Torah unless God opens his eyes.
The Lamb slain from the foundation of the world, was the all knowing G-d making provisions for mankind who he knew would be disobedient. So a path back to God has always been open. Yeshua being slain on earth was a re-enactment of the event at the foundation of the earth. Avraham and Yitsaak was a rehersal of the event also, where G-d supplied the Ram for Yitsaak.
Read Jn.5:24, some are already judged and bypass the "White Throne."
Even though Yeshua said it Joe can't accept it! He is so steeped in the Dogma of Christianity, he can't see the forest for the trees! LOL
G-d is love, G-d is a just G-d, it is not his will that any man perish!

We believe Jesus paid for the sins of the world on the cross, not as a re-enactment, and that as we look back on the cross, those who lived before the death of Christ looked forward to the cross as Christ paid for all the sins of all the world for all time, once and for all. We also believe that believers in Christ are not judged at the Great White Throne Judgement as Jesus took our judgement for us and our sins are forgiven, forgotten and completely paid for by his blood. We believe we will attend the Judgement Seat of Christ which examines our works after we were saved for reward, our salvation having already been secured when we first believed. When you say it is not God's will that any should perish, it is true. But, God's perfect will and his permissive will are two different things. The Bible clearly states that not everyone will be saved, and that's all I have to say on that topic for now. When you say I "can't see the forest for the trees? LOL", that does not help whatever point you are trying to make, it only is seen as insulting language and childish to me, so I appreciate more light and less heat, please. I am sharing my beliefs openly and honestly and without insults, I would appreciate the same respect.