:bow: I bow to the wisdoms of Hema and Gracie. For me, God is within each and every human.
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Would God condemn a person to hell who's never heard his word?
- Thread starter Grannyalf
- Start date
Mat 6:26-28
(26) Behold the fowls of the air: for they sow not, neither do they reap, nor gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feedeth them. Are ye not much better than they?
(27) Which of you by taking thought can add one cubit unto his stature?
(28) And why take ye thought for raiment? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow; they toil not, neither do they spin:
So when this reality is contained within dimensions and we exist inside this with God in control, why should it?
Don't you mean you need faith to open the door of your heart to God to begin with; else our own EGO prevents God from speaking direct, as we fill our own cup?
Don Penguinoini
Modi.
If youwere condemned to hell, if possible, it would happen for a reason
I personally believe that God talks to people that do not call out to Him at times. The best example is that of Paul, he did not seek Jesus, but Jesus sought him.
joeboonda
Well-Known Member
Good deeds are as filthy rags to God as far as salvation is concerned. The Bible says:
Isaiah 64:6
But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.
Romans 4
1 What should we say about those things? What did our father Abraham discover about being right with God? 2 Did he become right with God because of something he did? If so, he could brag about it. But he couldn't brag to God. 3 What do we find in Scripture? It says, "Abraham believed God. God accepted Abraham's faith, and so his faith made him right with God."(Genesis 15:6)
4 When a man works, his pay is not considered a gift. It is owed to him. 5 But things are different with God. He makes evil people right with himself. If people trust in him, their faith is accepted even though they do not work. Their faith makes them right with God. 6 King David says the same thing. He tells us how blessed some people are. God makes those people right with himself. But they don't have to do anything in return. David says,
7 "Blessed are those
whose lawless acts are forgiven.
Blessed are those
whose sins are taken away.
8 Blessed is the man
whose sin the Lord never counts against him." (Psalm 32:1,2)
Galatians 2:16
Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
Galatians 3
1O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
2This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
Titus 3:5
Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
Having shown in these verses that we are saved by grace, that is completely undeserved, unmerited favor through faith in Jesus Christ, that he paid for all our sins on the cross and gave us HIS righteousness in place of our own which is as filthy rags, the Bible goes on to say that since we have been freely saved by faith in Christ we do good works, not to get saved or stay saved, but because we have been saved by God's amazing love for us. God saves and keeps us, not the other way around. Salvation is from God through Christ alone, works follow as a result:
Ephesians 2
8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
Titus 3:8
This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.
joeboonda
Well-Known Member
Why then does the Bible say:
Isaiah 64:6
But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.
Ephesians 2
8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9Not of works, lest any man should boast.
And what do you make of these 2 verses?:
1 Timothy 1:4
Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: so do.
Titus 3:9
But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.
And, why would you do work, i.e. baptism for the dead based on one very obscure verse found in a passage in which Paul is arguing that the dead are indeed resurrected, with no other clear teaching in the epistles (or anywhere) regarding this?
(1 Corinthians 15:29
Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?)
Again, note the chapter is Paul's arguement for the resurrection, even found within this verse, and nowhere are we commanded in the Bible to do proxy anything.
madhatter85
Transhumanist
the Verse in Corinthians he's explaining WHY they did perform Baptism's by proxy because they know that the dead is not yet "judged" and that they can still perfom work here to save those who never had heard the words of christ before dying.
If you don't believe in the resurrection then i guess you wouldn't believe in that Corinthians verse. and if you don't believe in the resurrection then you don't believe in christ, and if you don't believe in christ, you must be an athiest because you don;t believe in Heavenly Father.
The power to do works is given by God only, any man who boasts in his own works rather than giving praise to God for what he has accomplished does nto have faith in God.
Read Verses 5-7 instead of just 6
He praying to God about how people try to hide from god because they never gave thanks to him, that they put faith in themselves first.
Again, Read the whole chapter, Paul is talking to Timothy about how the false doctrines are preached and that the priests boast of thier endless geneologies, and he warns him not to heed them.
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=63&chapter=3&verse=9&version=9&context=verse
Same thing as above, Read the whole chapter. Paul is talking about the Vanities of false preists stating thier geneologies that supposedly give them power.
Try reading the entire chapters instead of readign with blinders on.
It might open your eyes to some useful information.
Let me also add that the LDS church does not do geneological research for vanity or posterity. we do it so that we may hve a record of who was born and died and who we can do the work for them to help them on the other side of death.
madhatter85
Transhumanist
Your lack of cohesive scentences and fancy verbage completely baffle me. You make absolutely no sense. you never answered a question and yet didn't ask a coherent one.
Don Penguinoini
Modi.
Greetings to Wizanda:areyoucra
Grappleberry Punch
Member
You don't need God's exact words in order to have the message within your soul. We were all once divine-in-nature, and most of us have a good idea about how to be righteous, loving, etc. If you are cruel to your fellow human beings, then you can fall into Hell with or without hearing God's word.
madhatter85
Transhumanist
Also, did you know that in the bible Christ Rebuked the Pharasees?
I just see alot of your babble has alot to do with them and thinking they are right when in the bible Christ to them to literally "Stuff it"
joeboonda
Well-Known Member
Really? It actually just mentions those people in passing.
Don't worry, I believe in the resurrection, which is the main point of the chapter. It is in no way a discourse on proxy baptism.
True. What these verses are getting at is that we are freely saved by grace, good works following as a result.
Well here are the other 2 verses:
5Thou meetest him that rejoiceth and worketh righteousness, those that remember thee in thy ways: behold, thou art wroth; for we have sinned: in those is continuance, and we shall be saved. 6But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away. 7And there is none that calleth upon thy name, that stirreth up himself to take hold of thee: for thou hast hid thy face from us, and hast consumed us, because of our iniquities.
They say God meets (does not hide his face from) those who do righteousness but God hides his face from those who sin, not that we hide our face from God (although that is a true statement it is not in this verse). All these verses say we have sinned which was simply my point.
Exactly.
madhatter85
Transhumanist
you just did a 180 Degree turn with your phrase "Exactly" at the end.
or do you not know hot to read english and took what i said completely out of context?
joeboonda
Well-Known Member
Hmm. Let me explain, this is what I said "exactly' to:
I am agreeing that Paul warns us not to heed endless genealogies, only.
madhatter85
Transhumanist
he's saying not to heed endless geneologies, because that was how the false priest claimed thier so called "power" because they were the son of some great person who died long ago.
you take everything so far out of contxt and try to twist it to make youself look good it's really a sad thing.
I hope your eyes get opened some time, and i wish the very best to you.
joeboonda
Well-Known Member
I wish you would give your answer without the insults. The genealogies made people feel safe because they showed they were children of Abraham, which God warned them they could not live in sinful rebellion against him and think it was okay because they were descended from Abraham.
madhatter85
Transhumanist
So Joe, you are saying now that geneologies make people feel safe? so then it's okay to quote endless geneologies? which one is it joe, pick a stance and stick with it.
The God of the Bible is a merciful God and no one will be summerially consigned to the Christian everburning hell, unless he is evil/wicked/unrepentant/unloveable/contentious an awful character.
I have posted this same message on this and other "Hell" threads, but they are just leapfrogged to a controversy. I know my post are debate enders and most are here to debate a fence post.
Shalom
I have posted this same message on this and other "Hell" threads, but they are just leapfrogged to a controversy. I know my post are debate enders and most are here to debate a fence post.
Shalom
joeboonda
Well-Known Member
What I said was that God warned them against depending on these genealogies when they continued in sinful rebellion:
joeboonda
Well-Known Member
Here is some short commentary on it from enduring word:
d. Nor give heed to fables and endless genealogies: It seems that the great danger of these teachings (fables and endless genealogies) was that they were silly distractions. Timothy had to remain in Ephesus so that he could command others to ignore these speculative and silly distractions.
i. It wasnt that there was an elaborate anti-Jesus theology rising in Ephesus. It was more that they tended to get carried away by emphasizing the wrong things. Paul wanted to prevent the corruption that comes when people grant authority to fables and endless genealogies instead of true doctrine. Silly distractions are also dangerous, because they take the place of godly edification which is in faith.
ii. Perhaps the endless genealogies had to do with Gnostic-type theories of emanations from God. Perhaps they were connected with Jewish-type legalism that sought righteousness by virtue of ones ancestry. Or perhaps he had in mind doctrinal systems based on mystic readings of Old Testament genealogies.
iii. Ancient Jewish writings have been discovered, which delve into the most complex genealogies, connecting them with wild speculations about spiritual mysteries. A consuming interest in these kinds of things will crowd out godly edification which is in faith.
d. Nor give heed to fables and endless genealogies: It seems that the great danger of these teachings (fables and endless genealogies) was that they were silly distractions. Timothy had to remain in Ephesus so that he could command others to ignore these speculative and silly distractions.
i. It wasnt that there was an elaborate anti-Jesus theology rising in Ephesus. It was more that they tended to get carried away by emphasizing the wrong things. Paul wanted to prevent the corruption that comes when people grant authority to fables and endless genealogies instead of true doctrine. Silly distractions are also dangerous, because they take the place of godly edification which is in faith.
ii. Perhaps the endless genealogies had to do with Gnostic-type theories of emanations from God. Perhaps they were connected with Jewish-type legalism that sought righteousness by virtue of ones ancestry. Or perhaps he had in mind doctrinal systems based on mystic readings of Old Testament genealogies.
iii. Ancient Jewish writings have been discovered, which delve into the most complex genealogies, connecting them with wild speculations about spiritual mysteries. A consuming interest in these kinds of things will crowd out godly edification which is in faith.