Would you buy it?

[ninerbuff]

What you call submitting is really letting go of that which causes suffering.. It is humans conscious control that causes alot of resistance and suffering in life and even if you submitted this control without the benefits of drawing a better life for yourself it is still no way a sacrifice but a blessing. Pain and suffering only lasts as long as we choose to hold on to it.Let go and the healing begins.

Call it what you want, but it's still a condition upon receiving the gift. So the gift isn't free.

 

[ninerbuff]

What you could do with the box is let Kevin Trudeau make an informercial about it. This guy is great at selling and by all means the guy you want to trust.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YN5ihrECJms

 

[zenzero]

Friend MM,

We are all born with such boxes; but we never bother to open and check it out.
Personally get more from the box than the one you are promoting and so am not going for the dangling carrorts!

Love & rgds

 

[savethedreams]

This box would have to have trial and error, you would have to prove simply without the box bad will happen with the box good will happen to all people. Like a human with no oxygen will die 100% guarantee, if you can't do that, and give me that 'depends' / 'doesn't work for everybody' then NO keep the box.

- Everybody is an individual , Everything is one, Everything is Everthing

 

[strikeviperMKII]

Yes pretty much it IS what we think supernatural religion is and what it teaches.

So...religion=supernatural?
Interesting.

As to 'what end' that is what we ask of you. What is the point of being a toady to a mythological creature who promises to burn you alive forever if you don't prostrate yourself and follow his every whim?

We're asking two completely different questions. You ask about what you think my religion (or religion in general, I guess) is, and I'm asking about something you're actually doing. As for my answer to your question, I'm not sure if there would be a point. That would depend on the whims of the mythological creature. But of course, because the creature is mythological, you could make up those whims at your own pleasure.

 

[strikeviperMKII]

What's different between believing in gods and believing in the box?

It seems to me that as far as you're concerned, there are none.

Nevertheless, I will attempt to answer your question.
First, what do you mean by believe?
Second, why does gods=box?

 

[YmirGF]

What is faith then? Are you saying that theists have justification for belief in gods? If so, what is it?

Faith is a deep-seated belief in some reality that the observer perceives which is based on precious little more than their emotional connection to said perceived reality. For many, this perceived reality resides outside of their conventional thinking and so assumptions are made about the nature of said reality that are not terribly accurate. It is very much a case of labeling something based on limited understanding and those descriptions/labels/assumptions should be taken with several grains of salt.

In this regard, theists do have, what are in my opinion, quite valid inner experiences that exceed personality as it is currently understood. Due to their misconceptions about what they are perceiving they assume that the object of their attention is godlike because it is so enormously evolved in contrast to what they know as being the self.

 

[Wotan]

"So...religion=supernatural?"

Yes it does. According to your listing you are a member of the HRCC. That church teaches a supernatural religion complete with miracles angelic beings and life after death. ALL is supernatural ideas for which zero objective evidence exists.

Now if you have an example of a religion that does NOT presuppose a supernatural being(s) I'd like to see it. I have never heard of such a thing. I know some ethical belief systems that are purely natural in what they teach. I know of NO religion that does. Indeed it is difficult to see how one could have a religion w/o the assumption of the supernatural.

 

[Erebus]

I'd buy the box, but only after studying the return policy
I'd try the box just like I tried Christianity, if the box doesn't do what it says it does, I'd trade it in (like I did with Christianity).

I'd trade it in for this box:

 

[Walkntune]

I can prove my car keys exist. I've seen my car keys, i've used my car keys, i can show you my car. You've never seen god, you've never felt god in your hands. So your argument is stupid.

The point was to prove conscious awareness opens and closes as someone holds on to thoughts and feelings.As you release the awareness opens.As long as you have a box of thoughts and feelings your awareness only opens up to what your particular box will allow.Anything further may seem stupid.

The thing is you are asking us to remove fact and intellect in search of something that cannot be verified without fact and intellect.

Not saying remove facts and intellect.Saying not to close conscious awareness off by them.Be open to possibilities instead of trying to stand on assumed facts that are pretty much going to change anyway. They laughed at the wright brothers for trying to fly.

So basically you are saying stop thinking and pretend really really hard that god exists until you believe that he does and don't apply fact or intellect to this belief in god otherwise it will disappear.

.
I am saying let go of trying to control reality in the intellect so the awareness can open up.

 

[Willamena]

I can prove my car keys exist.

Actually, I doubt you can. You would have to first prove existence.

 

[Ozzie]

Actually, I doubt you can. You would have to first prove existence.

If someone believes that he has flown from America to England in the last few days, then, I believe, he cannot be making a mistake.
And just the same if someone says that he is at this moment sitting at a table and writing.
But even if in such cases I can’t be mistaken, isn't it possible that I am drugged? If I am and if the drug has taken away my consciousness, then I am not now really talking and thinking. I cannot seriously suppose that I am at this moment dreaming. Someone who, dreaming, says "I am dreaming," even if he speaks audibly in doing so, is no more right than if he said in his dream "it is raining," while it was in fact raining. Even if his dream were actually connected with the noise of the rain

Wittgenstein's last journal entry according to Wikipedia (I think you have become a fan). Doesn't prove existence, but does prove this one.

 

[strikeviperMKII]

"So...religion=supernatural?"

Yes it does. According to your listing you are a member of the HRCC. That church teaches a supernatural religion complete with miracles angelic beings and life after death. ALL is supernatural ideas for which zero objective evidence exists.

Define miracles.
Define angelic beings.
Define life after death.
Why do you expect objective evidence for something that is not objective?

Now if you have an example of a religion that does NOT presuppose a supernatural being(s) I'd like to see it. I have never heard of such a thing. I know some ethical belief systems that are purely natural in what they teach. I know of NO religion that does. Indeed it is difficult to see how one could have a religion w/o the assumption of the supernatural.

Define the terms I have asked, and you're on your way to one.

 

[Meow Mix]

Belief = "the mental conviction of the truth, actuality or validity of something." Although the word is often abused, one doesn't have genuine belief without justification.

Faith is belief in something the actuality of which is not yet demonstrated.

Uh... how is "belief in something the actuality of which is not yet demonstrated" different from blind belief or belief without justification?

"Not yet demonstrated" = "without justification"

 

[Meow Mix]

Try to understand it more like this.
When you have a conscious thought like where is my car keys, sometimes the awareness becomes blind and you can't see the keys even when they are in front of your face.When you release consciously the awareness opens up and suddenly the keys appear. All conscious thought blinds the awareness to one degree or another.
Reality is discovered through awareness and not conscious intellect.
Trying to get someone to see God in there intellect is like the person in a panic seeing his keys. You have to first let go in order for awareness to open.Whatever box you create consciously, you can only see from within that box until you let go. Its better to learn not to have a box.

No, if you stopped thinking you wouldn't find your car keys. You wouldn't even be able to lift an arm to wipe the drool that would pool around your chin.

To find your car keys you do think even if you're not consciously aware of it. Most of the time, though, you'll be consciously thinking "Where was the last place I know I had it," and you'll look in places that the keys are likely to be such as in the ignition, in your pants pockets, between the cushions of the couch.

What you're saying is meaningless and it isn't an approach to knowledge or justified belief. It's irrational.

 

[McBell]

What you're saying is meaningless and it isn't an approach to knowledge or justified belief. It's irrational.

But it does make for easily controlled drones.....

 

[Meow Mix]

It seems to me that as far as you're concerned, there are none.

Nevertheless, I will attempt to answer your question.
First, what do you mean by believe?
Second, why does gods=box?

I'm not using "belief" in any alien context or anything so I don't understand why you're asking me what I mean by it. You know what believing something means; it's a conviction that something is true.

I've already explained why god belief is similar to the box and it was apparent in the original analogy: an alleged explanation for things, answerer of prayers, offer of immortality, and various other traits pulled straight from various religions which you are expected to believe without solid justification.

This should be pretty straightforward.

 

[Meow Mix]

Maybe you're onto something Mestemia... muahahaha.

 

[strikeviperMKII]

I'm not using "belief" in any alien context or anything so I don't understand why you're asking me what I mean by it. You know what believing something means; it's a conviction that something is true.

Such as the conviction that god=box?

I've already explained why god belief is similar to the box and it was apparent in the original analogy: an alleged explanation for things, answerer of prayers, offer of immortality, and various other traits pulled straight from various religions which you are expected to believe without solid justification.

This should be pretty straightforward.

I asked why gods=box. Why is god all those things you mentioned? Because you were told? Because the Bible says so? Why?

 

[Meow Mix]

Such as the conviction that god=box?



I asked why gods=box. Why is god all those things you mentioned? Because you were told? Because the Bible says so? Why?

You're missing almost entirely the point of the analogy. The analogy is to ask in what way people would think belief that the box's claims are true is different from belief that the claims about various gods are true.

The specific properties of the box don't matter; the point is that they are difficult to justify as being true -- just like many of the specific properties of gods.

The point is that it's clearly ridiculous to invest in the box with such poor justification of its merits. Do you agree? Or would you truly invest in purchasing the box without justification of its merits? (In which case I have a few bridges in New York soaked in snake oil to sell you...)

So, then the question is: how is belief in the box's merits a different kind of belief than belief in gods? If belief in the box is absurd and irrational (since there is no justification), the point is that so is belief in gods if there is no justification there either.