Would you buy it?

[Thief]

But it does make for easily controlled drones.....

So this would lead to an after life full of 'yes men' having wings and swords?

 

[McBell]

So this would lead to an after life full of 'yes men' having wings and swords?

Whoa, slow down there cowboy.
I am not talking about the "afterlife" (whatever that might be).
I am talking about this life.

 

[ninerbuff]

If believer's feel they have nothing to lose by investing in the "box" I would ask that they send me the money and I'll keep putting in the "good word" for them.

 

[McBell]

If belief in the box is absurd and irrational (since there is no justification), the point is that so is belief in gods if there is no justification there either.

Seems to me that this is the point he is going to such great lengths to avoid.

 

[Thief]

Whoa, slow down there cowboy.
I am not talking about the "afterlife" (whatever that might be).
I am talking about this life.

Yes we are.
The 'box' (religion) is that set of instructions that lead to it.

Yes we are talking about religion...and where it leads.

 

[strikeviperMKII]

You're missing almost entirely the point of the analogy. The analogy is to ask in what way people would think belief that the box's claims are true is different from belief that the claims about various gods are true.

I do understand, and I am trying to explain to you the difference.

The specific properties of the box don't matter; the point is that they are difficult to justify as being true -- just like many of the specific properties of gods.

I agree with you there. But I was not the one who put those properties on God/gods. You did that. I'm asking why.

The point is that it's clearly ridiculous to invest in the box with such poor justification of its merits. Do you agree? Or would you truly invest in purchasing the box without justification of its merits? (In which case I have a few bridges in New York soaked in snake oil to sell you...)

Again, merits you put on the box. Why did you do that?

So, then the question is: how is belief in the box's merits a different kind of belief than belief in gods? If belief in the box is absurd and irrational (since there is no justification), the point is that so is belief in gods if there is no justification there either.

I agree that if the belief in the box has no justification, then its just stupid. But the point remains that you have put the merits on the box. Why did you do that?

 

[Walkntune]

No, if you stopped thinking you wouldn't find your car keys. You wouldn't even be able to lift an arm to wipe the drool that would pool around your chin.

To find your car keys you do think even if you're not consciously aware of it. Most of the time, though, you'll be consciously thinking "Where was the last place I know I had it," and you'll look in places that the keys are likely to be such as in the ignition, in your pants pockets, between the cushions of the couch.

What you're saying is meaningless and it isn't an approach to knowledge or justified belief. It's irrational.

My point was is that they could be in front of your face and you not see them.Its not a matter of thinking or not thinking but its a matter of holding on consciously that makes the difference.It is learning how to use awareness.

What does this quote from Einstein mean to you?
"The only thing that interferes with my learning is my education." Albert Einstein

 

[Willamena]

Wittgenstein's last journal entry according to Wikipedia (I think you have become a fan). Doesn't prove existence, but does prove this one.

Do dreams exist? If so, then they are not the antithesis of existence.

 

[Meow Mix]

I agree with you there. But I was not the one who put those properties on God/gods. You did that. I'm asking why.

For the sake of analogy of course. In order to give you a concept of what the box is I had to make up some properties of it. I easily could have also said that inside the box is a leprechaun (but that you would only find this out after you died).

As I said, the specific properties of the box are irrelevant (I just tuned them to be similar to commonly held religious beliefs for fun). What matters for the analogy is that the properties aren't justified and that you're expected to invest belief in it without justification.

It's missing the point (Ignoratio elenchi - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia) to nitpick a part of an analogy that has nothing to do with the point. The point is about investing belief in something without justification that's difficult to justify (e.g. "you'll find out after you're dead"). If you agree it's irrational to take the box at its word, do you agree it's irrational to take religions at their word?

 

[Willamena]

If you agree it's irrational to take the box at its word, do you agree it's irrational to take religions at their word?

And more importantly, why. But perhaps the answer does lie in the nits that are picked.

 

[Willamena]

Uh... how is "belief in something the actuality of which is not yet demonstrated" different from blind belief or belief without justification?

"Not yet demonstrated" = "without justification"

I believe that the sun will rise tomorrow. It's an entirely justified belief, though the event is not actual. It's not "blind," which is a figure of speech that does refer to having no evidence, hence being unable to justify belief--but then, as I said, the word "belief" is often abused.

 

[Willamena]

No, if you stopped thinking you wouldn't find your car keys. You wouldn't even be able to lift an arm to wipe the drool that would pool around your chin.

Haven't you ever done anything out of habit? Do you knit? Do you think about each stich as you make it? (I hope not, else you're missing out on all the fun of knitting, most of which invovles entertaining daydreams.)

It's not meaningless at all.

 

[Walkntune]

Haven't you ever done anything out of habit? Do you knit? Do you think about each stich as you make it? (I hope not, else you're missing out on all the fun of knitting, most of which invovles entertaining daydreams.)



It's not meaningless at all.

Glad to see someone understands.LOL
Subconscious thinking is alot more complicated to get a grasp on because it often works contrary to conscious thinking.When you think consciously that you want something the subconscious interprets it as I don't have and creates a resistance.The reason to let go of conscious thoughts is so you can be in tune with the subconscious thoughts that our buried underneath and which actually dictate our actions. Most everything happens and is dictated in the body subconsciously.When we let go of conscious control then we become aware of subconsciousness and actually have more control.In letting go of control we find it. Kind of like love. If you are consciously looking for it then your actions come across negatively but if you let go consciously,you become yourself as you are driven subconsciously and not consciously.
Unfortunately many live there life in a rut because of conscious control.
When you let go of conscious control you are not letting go of control but only the desire to have it because as long as you desire it consciously, then the subconscious takes it as I don't have it.Let go of wanting control and you will have much more control.
Its an illusion to think control comes from conscious thoughts.

 

[yourhopeboundheart]

Glad to see someone understands.LOL
Subconscious thinking is alot more complicated to get a grasp on because it often works contrary to conscious thinking.When you think consciously that you want something the subconscious interprets it as I don't have and creates a resistance.The reason to let go of conscious thoughts is so you can be in tune with the subconscious thoughts that our buried underneath and which actually dictate our actions. Most everything happens and is dictated in the body subconsciously.When we let go of conscious control then we become aware of subconsciousness and actually have more control.In letting go of control we find it. Kind of like love. If you are consciously looking for it then your actions come across negatively but if you let go consciously,you become yourself as you are driven subconsciously and not consciously.
Unfortunately many live there life in a rut because of conscious control.
When you let go of conscious control you are not letting go of control but only the desire to have it because as long as you desire it consciously, then the subconscious takes it as I don't have it.Let go of wanting control and you will have much more control.

so to revisit the keys analogy.
what you mean is that if you have developed a habit of putting your keys in a particular spot every time you come home, so you will be able to automatically grab them without even having to think about where they are, then you can count on your subconscious habit to find your keys without even consulting your "conscious mind". yet if you either broke your habit, or if you happen to have small children living in your home, you must employ your conscious thought and deductive reasoning to find where the keys might be, since they aren't in your habitual spot. because the subconscious has no hope of finding the keys in anywhere besides the spot habitually assigned from it. (also keep in mind, that most of the positive habits that are a part of our subconscious routine originated as conscious thoughts that were repeated over and over again until they became automatic.)

the way i have always used habits is so that i don't HAVE to devote much thought to certain mundane actions. and so that i can use my conscious mind to think of other things while repeating a habitual task. there have been plenty of days where i will set myself about getting ready for work, and then let my mind go into many different things that are much more stimulating than getting dressed, showering, filling up my flask, etc. i'll start off thinking about the book i'm reading, or the people i will see at work, or the last completely ridiculous thing someone has written on RF and by the time i check the clock to leave for work my bag is packed, my clothes are on, and i am heading out the door.

there is something to be said for utilizing the faculty of the subconscious, but i doubt there is anything beneficial about allowing ONLY the subconscious to do the thinking for us.

 

[McBell]

Yes we are.
The 'box' (religion) is that set of instructions that lead to it.

Yes we are talking about religion...and where it leads.

No, that is merely your strawman.
Now if you want to go that route, by all means feel free.
Just stop claiming that that is what I am talking about.
For it is not.

 

[Walkntune]

so to revisit the keys analogy.
what you mean is that if you have developed a habit of putting your keys in a particular spot every time you come home, so you will be able to automatically grab them without even having to think about where they are, then you can count on your subconscious habit to find your keys without even consulting your "conscious mind". yet if you either broke your habit, or if you happen to have small children living in your home, you must employ your conscious thought and deductive reasoning to find where the keys might be, since they aren't in your habitual spot. because the subconscious has no hope of finding the keys in anywhere besides the spot habitually assigned from it. (also keep in mind, that most of the positive habits that are a part of our subconscious routine originated as conscious thoughts that were repeated over and over again until they became automatic.)

the way i have always used habits is so that i don't HAVE to devote much thought to certain mundane actions. and so that i can use my conscious mind to think of other things while repeating a habitual task. there have been plenty of days where i will set myself about getting ready for work, and then let my mind go into many different things that are much more stimulating than getting dressed, showering, filling up my flask, etc. i'll start off thinking about the book i'm reading, or the people i will see at work, or the last completely ridiculous thing someone has written on RF and by the time i check the clock to leave for work my bag is packed, my clothes are on, and i am heading out the door.

there is something to be said for utilizing the faculty of the subconscious, but i doubt there is anything beneficial about allowing ONLY the subconscious to do the thinking for us.

Well it actually goes deeper. It is awareness that is beneficial.I actually find that creating habits even that are good is also a limitation on awareness but none the less better then bad habbits.
When you have freed your mind from all thoughts your mind actually thinks much clearer.It is not the thinking that is the problem.It is holding on consciously that is the problem and what cause a restriction. If Someone makes you upset the mind wants to continuously hold on to the situation analising it over and over until you make a conscious effort to release what you are holding on to. This holding on is what blinds awareness. To what extent awareness can open depends on how much you can release consciously and subconsciously.Awareness comes to the truth of reality and not that which we hold in mind consciously for control. Your consciousness can only see as much as you allow your awareness to open as you relate this to not seeing keys in front of your face until you release the panic or fear of not having them.Once you have released the restrictions of your awareness caused from the mind, suddenly you see the keys were in front of your face the whole time.

 

[yourhopeboundheart]

.
When you have freed your mind from all thoughts your mind actually thinks much clearer.

okay, it seems like you just use your brain differently from me. and i suppose that's okay, provided i don't have to rely on you for anything.
remind me never to go into business with you, or even count on you to show up for an appointment.

 

[Walkntune]

okay, it seems like you just use your brain differently from me. and i suppose that's okay, provided i don't have to rely on you for anything.
remind me never to go into business with you, or even count on you to show up for an appointment.

Consciousness works the same in everyone, your just not aware of it.

 

[painted wolf]

I don't know... is it art?

Artwork selling itself on eBay

wa:do

 

[Atomist]

I believe that the sun will rise tomorrow. It's an entirely justified belief, though the event is not actual. It's not "blind," which is a figure of speech that does refer to having no evidence, hence being unable to justify belief--but then, as I said, the word "belief" is often abused.

I'm curious on what you mean by justified... because I think it's justifiable to believe the sun will rise tomorrow... given we know what "rise" means and that the earth spins on an axis while rotating around the sun... to give the illusion of "rising" which is predictable on a time frame we call an "earth" day.