Yadavas Hebrews farmers. How come Jews thought Hebrews were slaves?

[rosends]

Gibberish

I asked you a specific question.

and I gave you a specific answer.

That 'yes' (below) should be you are "denying that midrash and talmud are interpretations of torah?"

They include what some people see as interpretation but they are so much more than that.

Then I asked you: "Do you think that your religious leadership has given you the tools to know what to look for?" what to look for as a messiah. I used Jesus as evidence for that question as evidence of the most succinct errors.

Because jews made jesus into a messiah 2000 yrs ago and even today the majority DO NOT accept jesus yet here in today's world the "jews for jesus" movement is increasing.

As I see it, there is no leadership that is comprehensive of what to look for!

But you asked me a question about this and I answered "yes". You seem to have ignored that.

 

[Bthoth]

and I gave you a specific answer.

no you did not. You convoluted the 2

They include what some people see as interpretation but they are so much more than that.

Both midrash and talmud are interpretations by individuals that are subjected to peer review. Almost like a scientific hypothesis.

But you asked me a question about this and I answered "yes". You seem to have ignored that.

So you agree with the YES that midrash and talmud are interpretations?



But the idea that you have been educated to know what to look for of a messiah is still a........... NO.

as even the Jews of old had no idea and how/why christianity was born (created)

 

[rosends]

no you did not. You convoluted the 2

No, I answered the question asked.

Both midrash and talmud are interpretations by individuals that are subjected to peer review. Almost like a scientific hypothesis.

No, they might include certain elements which are interpretations but they are not always subjected to peer review.

So you agree with the YES that midrash and talmud are interpretations?

I don't recall saying that. I answered twice already and you take from that "Yes"?

But the idea that you have been educated to know what to look for of a messiah is still a........... NO.

Maybe in your mind.

as even the Jews of old had no idea and how/why christianity was born (created)

The Jews were very clear on how and why yet another religion developed, trying to coopt Jewish ideas.

 

[Bthoth]

No, I answered the question asked.

No, they might include certain elements which are interpretations but they are not always subjected to peer review.

There is the evidence of the convoluted....
you added 2 questions then with my addition (peer review)

I don't recall saying that. I answered twice already and you take from that "Yes"?

Like I said, you did not answer... Just own it. You're allowed to be honest.

Maybe in your mind.

Of course as you already knew directly........... and you knew jesus was not messiah before even spending time with Christians.

The Jews were very clear on how and why yet another religion developed, trying to coopt Jewish ideas.

Do you mean plagiarize versus just copy? But still, the followers that created the christian base were just like you, unaware of what even the literature, promises and prophecies were conveying.

 

[Bharat Jhunjhunwala]

@Aupmanyav
What about the Yamuna River during the time the river was flowing west and the people who already lived west of the river Yamuna? I think they travel some but remain west of the river. However, an interesting question is: when the river stopped flowing west and flowed east, how come people didn't move east of this river instead left Indus Valley and traveled far?

The east was densely forested. The west provided farmlands and orchards. Perhaps.

 

[Bharat Jhunjhunwala]

@Aupmanyav
What about the Yamuna River during the time the river was flowing west and the people who already lived west of the river Yamuna? I think they travel some but remain west of the river. However, an interesting question is: when the river stopped flowing west and flowed east, how come people didn't move east of this river instead left Indus Valley and traveled far?

The east was densely forested. The west provided farmlands and orchards. Perhaps.

 

[rosends]

There is the evidence of the convoluted....
you added 2 questions then with my addition (peer review)

I didn't add any questions. I just gave a complete ansqwer instead of buying into your false binary.

Like I said, you did not answer... Just own it. You're allowed to be honest.

I did answer. You don't like the answer but it still stands.

Of course as you already knew directly........... and you knew jesus was not messiah before even spending time with Christians.

True.

Do you mean plagiarize versus just copy? But still, the followers that created the christian base were just like you, unaware of what even the literature, promises and prophecies were conveying.

I said neither plagiarize nor copy.

 

[Bharat Jhunjhunwala]

Only Yamuna is supposed to have moved East with the tectonic movement raising the divide between the Indus catchment area and the Ganges catchment area. As for Sutlej, it meanders in a plain and has changed its course many a times in history. Sites of late Harappan culture exist even in east of Yamuna (see the Post-Harappan image in my post # 408). People, then moved further East along the river Ganges clearing the forests and settling down as they went on.

The line going across the image is the disappeared Sarasvati River mentioned in Vedas. It has the maximum Indus Valley sites. Perhaps at one time, Sutlej and Yamuna, both large rivers, joined it making it the most important river in the area. Due to tectonic movement, Sutlej joined Indus and Yamuna joined Ganges, thereby obliterating Sarasvati. That is the area which is supposed to have got raised around 1,900 BCE. Earthquakes are common in Himalayan region. Kalibangan (larger even than Mohenjodaro and Harappa), Ganerwali, Alamgirpur are important Indus Valley sites.

On this we agree.

 

[Bharat Jhunjhunwala]

The only reason I could see for people heading for the desert instead of the more fertile land would be that they were driven out of the land, just as the Pharaoh Ahmose is credited with driving the Hyksos out of Egypt. Many believe the Jews left with them.

Quite possible. Hindu texts mention only the sinking of Dwarka as the trigger for migration of Yadavas to an unknown country. It is possible however that they were driven out at the same time. Question remains, if they were driven out of the Indus Valley, why did they not go east to Ganges Basin? I don't think we can know for sure. Maybe God inspired Moses so that he may carry his religion afar. Who knows?

 

[Bharat Jhunjhunwala]

@Bthoth view is Egypt while @Bharat Jhunjhunwala view is Indus Valley India

We need to agree on the ranking of evidences first. I propose 1. Geography; 2. Archaeology; 3. Etymology; 4. Ethnography; 5. Culture. Once we agree then we can compare Egypt and Indus fruitfully.

 

[Bharat Jhunjhunwala]

There is no evidence that Indus Valley people were Yadavas.

Dwarka is located in the Indus Valley. It is from here that the Yadavas migrated to an unknown country.

 

[Aupmanyav]

The east was densely forested. The west provided farmlands and orchards. Perhaps.

This also may be true to certain extent. Avesta says that Aryans moved from Hapta-Hendu (Sapta-Saindhava, the land of seven rivers) to Rangha. That area is known as Ragha in the Zob valley in Pakistan today. But that was not a new movement. Aryans had been shuttling between India and Afghanistan quite frequently at that time.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Quite possible. Hindu texts mention only the sinking of Dwarka as the trigger for migration of Yadavas to an unknown country. It is possible however that they were driven out at the same time. Question remains, if they were driven out of the Indus Valley, why did they not go east to Ganges Basin? I don't think we can know for sure. Maybe God inspired Moses so that he may carry his religion afar. Who knows?

Ah! God and Moses. Don't tell that to an atheist. The last stations of Indus Valley civilization in Gujarat are shown in the map below. If Dvarika got submerged, then people might have moved there: Dholavira, Lothal, Surkotda, Bhagatrao, etc.

 

[Bharat Jhunjhunwala]

Avesta says that Aryans moved from Hapta-Hendu (Sapta-Saindhava, the land of seven rivers) to Rangha. That area is known as Ragha in the Zob valley in Pakistan today.

Exactly. Some moved further west. They may be the Hebrews.

But that was not a new movement. Aryans had been shuttling between India and Afghanistan quite frequently at that time.

I have seen no evidence of shuttling though that is possible. But shuttling is quite compatible with a westward Exodus.

If Dvarika got submerged, then people might have moved there: Dholavira, Lothal, Surkotda, Bhagatrao, etc.

Yes. But these places were suffering from dry Hakra and collapse of the site on main Indus River (reasons not clear). So the choice was Ganges or Israel.

 

[Bthoth]

I said neither plagiarize nor copy.

It was ""coopt"

It looked like a mispelling

 

[Aupmanyav]

But Mr. Jhunjhunwala, there is nothing to connect Yadavas or Ahirs (or Gavlis and Gollas of Maharashtra and Andhra Pradesh) with the Aryan Yadus. They are herders, agriculturists in India. There is no record of movement of these people outside of India. Their skin-color and facial features are completely different from the Aryan stock as well as the people of Middle-east. They are basically indigenous people.

It is a wonder that you make them the original Hebrews of Egypt and Levant. Farming techniques came from West to India via Mesopotamia, Iran to India (Mehrgarh). The middle-East people are the first farmers of the world. How come your river flows in reverse, from plains to mountains?
They do not fit even in the four-fold division of Indian society.
"Historically, the Ahir and Yadav groups had an ambiguous ritual status in caste stratification."
Yadav - Wikipedia, Ahir - Wikipedia

 

[River Sea]

But Mr. Jhunjhunwala, there is nothing to connect Yadavas or Ahirs (or Gavlis and Gollas of Maharashtra and Andhra Pradesh) with the Aryan Yadus. They are herders, agriculturists in India. There is no record of movement of these people outside of India. Their skin-color and facial features are completely different from the Aryan stock as well as the people of Middle-east. They are basically indigenous people.

It is a wonder that you make them the original Hebrews of Egypt and Levant. Farming techniques came from West to India via Mesopotamia, Iran to India (Mehrgarh). The middle-East people are the first farmers of the world. How come your river flows in reverse, from plains to mountains?
They do not fit even in the four-fold division of Indian society.
"Historically, the Ahir and Yadav groups had an ambiguous ritual status in caste stratification."
Yadav - Wikipedia, Ahir - Wikipedia

@Bharat Jhunjhunwala @Aupmanyav

There weren't any Aryans around 1445 BC when the Yadavas left Indus Valley, India.

When did this happen that people were called Aryans?

Moses Krishna wasn't an Aryan. Am I understanding this correctly?

@Bharat Jhunjhunwala claims no Aryans when Exodus happen from Indus Valley while @Aupmanyav claims Aryans

 

[Bharat Jhunjhunwala]

there is nothing to connect Yadavas or Ahirs

1] Egypt was known as KMT before 13c BCE. No place named Misr ever. Indus had the city named Mathura in literature from 2000 BCE. 2] Pharaoh title could be redacted. In any case it is weak circumstantial evidence. 3] Multiple geographical problems. 3a] Egypt no parting of the sea. Indus: Obstruction of Indus River by mud volcano. 3b] Egypt No volcano at Sinai. Indus Taftan. 3c] No need to go to Aqaba, the third Yam Suf. The third Yam suf would be Shatt al-Arab. 4] No character parallel to Moses in Egyptian literature. Krishna is parallel. 4a] Kills Kamsa (~Mistrite) and flees. 4b] Returns. 4c] Leaves for unknown country ~ Exodus. 4d] Brothers kill each other ~ Killng at Sinai.

There is no record of movement of these people outside of India.

Pl see "Out of India" theory. There is plentiful.

Their skin-color and facial features are completely different from the Aryan stock as well as the people of Middle-east. They are basically indigenous people.

THat is why Exodus from Egypt does not hold. In any event, Jews have intermarried hence cannot extrapolate from present.

Farming techniques came from West to India via Mesopotamia, Iran to India (Mehrgarh).

Not confirmed. Mehrgarh may be earlier. In any event inward farming transfer at 7m BCE and outward Exodus at 1500 BCE can go together.

How come your river flows in reverse, from plains to mountains?

No it does not.

They do not fit even in the four-fold division of Indian society.

Nor do tribals and many others.

"Historically, the Ahir and Yadav groups had an ambiguous ritual status in caste stratification."

Exactly. So they dont fit into 4 caste system.

 

[Bharat Jhunjhunwala]

There weren't any Aryans around 1445 BC when the Yadavas left Indus Valley, India.

The evidence for Aryan people coming to India is none. Only language was brought--perhaps by Indian tradeer.

Moses Krishna wasn't an Aryan.

There were no Aryans anywhere in India that I know of.

 

[crossfire]

1] Egypt was known as KMT before 13c BCE. No place named Misr ever.

The Amarna letters to the Egyptian rulers of the time (found in Amarna) were written in Akkadian cuniform and uses the name Misri to refer to Egypt.
The Rassam cylinder from Ninneveh uses the term Mu-ṣur.
I'm sure you can find more examples if you did a little investigation into the matter.