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Yadavas Hebrews farmers. How come Jews thought Hebrews were slaves?

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
@Bharat Jhunjhunwala @Aupmanyav

There weren't any Aryans around 1445 BC when the Yadavas left Indus Valley, India.

When did this happen that people were called Aryans?

Moses Krishna wasn't an Aryan. Am I understanding this correctly?

@Bharat Jhunjhunwala claims no Aryans when Exodus happen from Indus Valley while @Aupmanyav claims Aryans
- IMHO, Aryans started coming to India around 2,000 BCE.
They called themselves Aryans when they were in Central Asia even before they came to India (Vedas, Avests, Zoroaster). In Alexander's time they were centered around Herat and their country was known as Ariana. Of course, there was another disconnected region of Aryan prominance in the Sarasvati River valley of India, which they termed as Aryavarta (the land of Aryans).
- Moses and Krishna are two different mythological figures. Moses is for Jews and Krishna is for Hindus.
- There is no evidence of exodus of any people from India. Whoever came to India, settled here to become Indian and never went back, whether Aryans, Persians, Greeks,, Kushana (Yuehzi), Scythians (Northern/Western Ksatrapas), Huns, Muslims or any other people.
- As I quoted in my last post ("Historically, the Ahir and Yadav groups had an ambiguous ritual status in caste stratification.") some tribes in India are not part of the caste system. They are, sort of, autonomous tribes. These include Ahir (Abhira), Jats (Aratta, Arashtra - 'those who do not belong to any particular country'), Gujar (Khazars), etc. They were immigrants from Iran, Balochistan, Afghanistan and Turkmenistan. The Abhiras were at one time vassals of the Scythian Western Ksatrapas. The history of these tribes is not satisfactorily known.
 

crossfire

LHP Mercuræn Feminist Heretic Bully ☿
Premium Member
1] Egypt was known as KMT before 13c BCE. No place named Misr ever.
Here are a couple of more references from Palaeolexicon - Reverse Index

Mycenean Greek Linear B mi-sa-ra-jo
Linear B.png

Hurrian Māžriā=ni
Hurrian.png
and Hurrian
 

Bharat Jhunjhunwala

TruthPrevails
The Amarna letters to the Egyptian rulers of the time (found in Amarna) were written in Akkadian cuniform and uses the name Misri to refer to Egypt.
The Rassam cylinder from Ninneveh uses the term Mu-ṣur.
I'm sure you can find more examples if you did a little investigation into the matter.
Time is 1350 bce plus.
 

Bharat Jhunjhunwala

TruthPrevails
- IMHO, Aryans started coming to India around 2,000 BCE.
They called themselves Aryans when they were in Central Asia even before they came to India (Vedas, Avests, Zoroaster). In Alexander's time they were centered around Herat and their country was known as Ariana. Of course, there was another disconnected region of Aryan prominance in the Sarasvati River valley of India, which they termed as Aryavarta (the land of Aryans).
- Moses and Krishna are two different mythological figures. Moses is for Jews and Krishna is for Hindus.
- There is no evidence of exodus of any people from India. Whoever came to India, settled here to become Indian and never went back, whether Aryans, Persians, Greeks,, Kushana (Yuehzi), Scythians (Northern/Western Ksatrapas), Huns, Muslims or any other people.
- As I quoted in my last post ("Historically, the Ahir and Yadav groups had an ambiguous ritual status in caste stratification.") some tribes in India are not part of the caste system. They are, sort of, autonomous tribes. These include Ahir (Abhira), Jats (Aratta, Arashtra - 'those who do not belong to any particular country'), Gujar (Khazars), etc. They were immigrants from Iran, Balochistan, Afghanistan and Turkmenistan. The Abhiras were at one time vassals of the Scythian Western Ksatrapas. The history of these tribes is not satisfactorily k
 

Bharat Jhunjhunwala

TruthPrevails
, Aryans started coming to India around 2,000 BCE.
No evidence. Out of India Theory, which I espouse, holds opposite.
In Alexander's time they were centered around Herat
Makes no difference to 1500 BCE.
Moses and Krishna are two different mythological figures. Moses is for Jews and Krishna is for Hindus.
Then how do we explain the following:
I am suggesting that Adam-Cain-Noah-Abraham-Moses lived in the Indus Valley Civilization (IVC) and Moses led the Exodus from IVC to Israel. So we should get evidence of “slavery” in the IVC. The IVC counterpart to Pharaoh, Moses and Aaron appear to be Kamsa, Krishna and Balarama. Now Kamsa’s narrative parallels that of the Bible.

1] Kamsa sent Putna to kill sons of the Yadavas. (~ midwives).

2] Kamsa collected (I presume, punitive) taxes. (~slavery).

3] Krishna killed Kamsa. (~Moses killed Mitsrite).

4] Jarasandha attacked Yadavas at Mathura and forced them to flee to Dwarka. (~move to Goshen).

5] Yadavas fled Dwarka (-plagues).

6] Yadavas killed each other. (~Hebrews killed each other at Sinai).

7] Krishna left for an unknown country. (~Exodus).
Also
We need to agree on the ranking of evidences first. I propose 1. Geography; 2. Archaeology; 3. Etymology; 4. Ethnography; 5. Culture. Once we agree then we can compare Egypt and Indus fruitfully.
This please don't keep silent. Important because Geography and archaeology apparently not dealt by you.
 

River Sea

Well-Known Member
What is great about egyptian evidence, is they are quite often found and recorded in stone:

""Akhenaten's institution of monotheism throughout 14th century BCE Africa, though brief and quickly overturned, bears striking similarities to the three Abrahamic religions of today. "" May 9, 2020

Step One of Akhenaten’s plan to refocus Egypt’s religious life began shortly after his rise to power in 1349 BCE, when Akhenaten instituted a cult to Aten and renamed himself to reflect this god (Akhenaten meaning “One is effective for the Aten”).

Step Two was enacted when he sent his workers to remove all images and names of previously worshipped gods. This might remind today’s followers of Abrahamic religions of the commandment to “make unto thee no other graven image.”

Circumcision is first noted in Egyptian temple hieroglyphics dated to 4000 BCE, depicting young men restrained with a priest performing the cut wielding a knife

Which Modern Medical Practices Have Their Origins in Ancient Egypt?



cute. Here in the USA, not one that I have ever asked. In the middle east, I guess the guilt is greater

Nice label. ""

What is an example of divine command theory?​

An example of divine command theory, according to theists, is that God commands humans not to steal. Thus, humans are morally obligated to refrain from stealing.

Moral obligation, is not animal sacrificing. For example: no stealing (breaking the commandments) no need of guilt and the sacrifice begging for forgiveness.


Simple

Do you consider when that time is? Is it possible, the man could be alive now, watching the mess that is occurring?



Quite the opposite, notice that i seek true information before accepting just one set of beliefs.
What you wrote is just rude That mindset is why midwives were burned at the stake for helping women birth children

OK, let's see tanakh: ""6 “‘See how each of the princes of Israel who are in you uses his power to shed blood. 7 In you they have treated father and mother with contempt; in you they have oppressed the foreigner and mistreated the fatherless and the widow. "

Clearly israel is oppressing people and in Tanakh the prophecy represents israel doing the exact same thing.

SO which person of us 2 is writing what is real?

I am well aware that the commandments are as good now as when first created but burnt offerings of animals, is not a solution to help Jews keep the commandments. Just as I wrote many times over.

Torah is not relevant when used incorrectly. Christians also do it with bible and created branch davidians and jim jones types of people

Using torah to regress to animal sacrificing is another rude use of the literature.

You attacked me, making false accusations regarding the commandments. In truth and in writing breaking the rules (commandments) directly.

@Bthoth

At least, as you showed in Egypt, it's adults, adults can say yes or no. How did that change from adults to 8-day-old babies that Jews do? Here's a Facebook page showing people living in Israel are for intact. Intact means keeping the foreskin intact Intact Israel

I'm for intact, and I also let people choose for themselves with their own bodies; however, if they're brainwashed, is that really choosing? What's sad about body modifications is that one can't undo the cutting. Hopefully, science will someday allow people to undo and get what they're missing.
 
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Bthoth

Well-Known Member
@Bthoth

At least, as you showed in Egypt, it's adults, adults can say yes or no. How did that change from adults to 8-day-old babies that Jews do?
How, perhaps ease of performing and health reasons. In both cases, no god made the requirement unless you consider a pharaoh as a god.
I'm for intact, and I also let people choose for themselves with their own bodies; however, if they're brainwashed, is that really choosing?
The initial reason was soldiers picked up STD's from the spoils of war (taking the women) and brought it home.
What's sad about body modifications is that one can't undo the cutting. Hopefully, science will someday allow people to undo and get what they're missing.
Start with alzheimer's
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
No evidence. Out of India Theory, which I espouse, holds opposite.
I am suggesting that Adam-Cain-Noah-Abraham-Moses lived in the Indus Valley Civilization (IVC) and Moses led the Exodus from IVC to Israel. So we should get evidence of “slavery” in the IVC. The IVC counterpart to Pharaoh, Moses and Aaron appear to be Kamsa, Krishna and Balarama. Now Kamsa’s narrative parallels that of the Bible.
On what basis you hold 'Out of India' theory? For all that time (2,000 BCE to 325 BCE), Aryans were the prominent cultural group in Southern Turkmenistan and Afghanistan.
On what basis we should turn Pharaoh, Moses and Aaron into Kamsa, Krishna and Balarama?
Going from India to Levant is not like going from Delhi to Noida (a Delhi suburb). What people they met on the long way? What evidence did they leave of this journey? It is like saying that Moses wandered in Sinai with his three million for 40 years. There should be evidence.
What evidence is there for all that is mentioned about Krishna and Yadavas in Indian scriptures?
 

River Sea

Well-Known Member
Why do you consider it true? What is it about this research that captivates you? "Captivate" is an interesting word choice. It's been shown repeatedly that the conclusions presented about the Yadava being jewish are ... far below what many/most would consider credible. Why do you consider it credible?



If they are false words, should they be articulated and promoted?



I remember you, friend. Is this light within you encouraging you to promote and articulate the reimagined reduced story of the Yadavas?

Maybe this? I recall somewhere reading in this thread or another that some/many Hindu believe that Moses was Krishna? Is it perhaps that you agree with some of the other ideas that come from Hinduism, and if this Moses=Krisha is true, then that helps to convince you of other parts of Hinduism being true?

I still don't understand why this particular story about Moses=Krishna, and the Jews=Yadavas is so important to you. You haven't explained it. You only said it has captivated you. Why?

Regarding the shechina, yes, everything is flowing from the the vessel which is sometimes refered to as "shechina". Everything. Both good and evil. Truth and delusion. All of it is flowing through this vessel. Please remember, light can be both illuminating and blinding. Captivating is not always a good thing. It's actually very very bad if one literally cannot look away and gain some perspective.



Certainly. However, hopefully you will return the favor and answer my questions too. Fair is fair.

I still don't understand why this particular story about Moses=Krishna, and the Jews=Yadavas is so important to you. You haven't explained it. You only said it has captivated you. Why?



There are many teachings about the letter Hei. There are many teachings about why it is being added to Abram to make it into Abraham.

Since you are drawn to the form yud-dalet, then I will share that the Hei is often considered the "Hand" literally "yud-dalet" = "Yad" = Hand. Hei is the 5th letter of the alphabet. Look at your hand, hopefully you are counting to 5. The number 5 is important because it represents strict justice. God's mighty hand. There's 5 attributes of justice. Dan, the judge, is the 5th child. There's many of these connections. But, and this is very-very important, there's more than strict justice, there's two hands. Both can help, both can harm, they need to work together. But yud-dalet is not just "hand" because it is 5 fingers. yud-dalet if it is added up with gematria it is 14. Now look at your hand and count up the segments. Each of the bones of the fingers, guess how many? 14. Keep these numbers in mind, 5 fingers on one hand, 14 segments of those fingers. And, the mispar-katan of 14 = 5 1+4=5.

In the story, Abram is accepting God's law and is executing it onto his own flesh. The, Hei, the hand of God, is being placed onto him in a permanent irrevesible manner. So God is placing the letter Hei into his name, an eternal remembrance. This makes sense. Abram is accepting his role in God's divine plan with his own hands, and as an eternal remembrance, God's hand is being placed into his name, forvever. But there is another "Hand", please let's not forget SaraH, who's name was previously Sarai. As a pair and a partnership THEY together produced the Jewish nation.

Now it is complete, 2 hands working together. Count them up. 10 fingers. But don't stop there. Count all of the segments too. 28 segments. The heavens and the earth are being created in Gen 1 using 10 statements and 28 letters working together as a team. On the surface it might seem like creation is happening by some some combination of different forces, but Judaism teaches that there is a beautiful and intricate series of partnerships all of which is under the complete authority of only 1 divine power.


Yes, it's true that there appears to be a plurality of powers and Abraham realized there is only 1. But that realization includes a realization of the partnerships of the plurality which is happening on the surface. Abram is realizing the teamwork and harmony which are all under the direction of this 1 divine power cannot be denied. Denying these partnerships, would be denying the 1 divine power itself. Once Abram had realized that these partnerships were all completely 100% orchestrated by this 1 divine power, he made a choice to include himself and partner himself with this 1 divine power. He is removing his foreskin by his own hand, and the hand of God is descending on him, AND on his wife, both of them so they can work as a team. All of this is reflecting and reinforcing this realization of a divine partnership which is all under the aabsolute authority of 1 and only 1 divine power.

That's the door. It's the realization of the divine partnerships which are happening on the surface of everything. The door is what's happeing on the surface. Walking through the door is different. Knocking down the door would be denying that these partnerships exist on the surface and are indeed part of the divine plan and divine providence.

Many see the door, walk through it ( they might call it "lifting the veil" ), and then never return or deny that the door ever existed in the first place even though... they walked right through it to get to the other-side. It's like climbing to the roof with ladder, kicking the ladder away from the roof, and imagining/declaring/proclaiming that they flew up there like a bird.

Abram did NOT do that. That would be denying the Torah, more-or-less by rewriting it or claiming it is irrelevant. And that's how one knows if a person is *actually* a Jew even if they were not born from a Jewish womb.



A Jew is a person whose lineage traces directly back to the Torah that was given at Mt. Sinai. That's it. There's 2 ways that God has designated for determining this lineage.

If a soul is delivered from a Jewish womb, or an individual will not let anything stop them from converting per Jewish Law.

It has nothing to do with light in them, or a voice that they listen to. We are instructed NOT to listen to voices of light. We received a Torah in magnificent detail. That is what we listen to. That is what makes a person a Jew. It is a direct connection to that Torah. The Torah is many things to many people. It is a living Torah. Most don't understand what that means. It means there is an unbreakable undeniable partnership between the Torah and the individual. Denying it hurts them. For some the Torah contains stories that describe what they SHOULD NOT to do. For some the Torah contains of stories of what they SHOULD DO. For some it contains the secrets of the universe. For me it contains the path to peace.

That is the answer to "What exactly is a Jew". It is an unbreakable undeniable lineage to the Torah given at Sinai.

@dybmh

You asked me why the book Common Prophets by author @Bharat Jhunjhunwala captivated me.

What captivate me was showing that humans began from Indus Valley and branch outward, and it shows from the past stories, how similar these stories are

Have you ever observed similar past stories, if so what are these similar past stories?

@dybmh you asked me, "It's been shown repeatedly that the conclusions presented about the Yadava being jewish are ... far below what many/most would consider credible. Why do you consider it credible?"

My response: @Bharat Jhunjhunwala showed that Yadavas and Krishna went to an unknown area and so because of this word unknown, then @Bharat Jhunjhunwala researched and learned where this unknown was. I'm the reader, so as I read, I was extremely fascinated.

I mean can you imagine what it's like to answer where this unknown was, where did Krishna and the Yadavas went to, where was this unknown area, and to explore this, and the findings.

Just think, way back when, a person actually wrote unknown, without exploring further where this unknown was, well surely archeologists and researchers will want to know where this unknown was?

So to explore how did Yadavas name change to Hebrews then later to Jews?

What about
Genes of Ashkenazi Jews in India
A section of the Jews carry the M-124 gene that has its origins
in India. This gene may have entered the Jewish gene pool at
their origins in the Indus Valley

M 124 genes.JPG
 
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River Sea

Well-Known Member
@dybmh you wrote
That is the answer to "What exactly is a Jew". It is an unbreakable undeniable lineage to the Torah given at Sinai.

@dybmh
My question is: was the Torah carved on a stone tablet? How did the Torah increase information explaining more after Sinai? Who are these people who increased information what was written in the Torah?
 
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Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
Now this post is primarily for @Dreamhunter.
As per my experience Jats, Ahirs and Gujars have a fairer skin and facial features than Yadavas.
 

Bharat Jhunjhunwala

TruthPrevails
@dybmh

You asked me why the book Common Prophets by author @Bharat Jhunjhunwala captivated me.

What captivate me was showing that humans began from Indus Valley and branch outward, and it shows from the past stories, how similar these stories are

Have you ever observed similar past stories, if so what are these similar past stories?

@dybmh you asked me, "It's been shown repeatedly that the conclusions presented about the Yadava being jewish are ... far below what many/most would consider credible. Why do you consider it credible?"

My response: @Bharat Jhunjhunwala showed that Yadavas and Krishna went to an unknown area and so because of this word unknown, then @Bharat Jhunjhunwala researched and learned where this unknown was. I'm the reader, so as I read, I was extremely fascinated.

I mean can you imagine what it's like to answer where this unknown was, where did Krishna and the Yadavas went to, where was this unknown area, and to explore this, and the findings.

Just think, way back when, a person actually wrote unknown, without exploring further where this unknown was, well surely archeologists and researchers will want to know where this unknown was?

So to explore how did Yadavas name change to Hebrews then later to Jews?

What about
Genes of Ashkenazi Jews in India
A section of the Jews carry the M-124 gene that has its origins
in India. This gene may have entered the Jewish gene pool at
their origins in the Indus Valley

View attachment 84037
Dymbh. We may look at the evidence COMPARATIVELY i.e. with egypt. I welcome picking holes but it must be comparative.
 
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