Yeah, you're right. I'm trying to hard to prove to @Bharat Jhunjhunwala that Misraim actually referred to Egypt, not the Indus Valley, like he so vehemently claims.
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Yadavas Hebrews farmers. How come Jews thought Hebrews were slaves?
Yes .. Egypt controls the Levant 1400-1200BC .. roughly .. and don't assume you know the first thing about my angle .. that is the big Ad Hom Fallacy Joke here.. I am the one saying we should arm the Palestinians like we did the Ukrainians against a foreign occupier in other threads.
I don't beleve Moses was as described -- and certainly didn't write the whole Torah .. as we are told in the Torah .. when his death is described.
Who knows what happend in that 200 year never never land .. what we do know is that there was likely an expulsion of tribal semetic people -- migrated back into the hills and that there well could have been some slaves were part of the bill .. it is mythology .. but having quite a few grains of historical truth here and there .
What ever came out of Egypt - "Wandering for 40 years" -- what does that tell you -- these folks spend the next 200 years integrating back into the Canaanite Nomadic Tribal Groups from whence they came .. perhaps over time some tribes becoming strong .. controling a few city states in the Hills .. everything else is either vassal of the Hittites or the Egyptians .. mostly Egypt.
What we know as "The Hebrews" .. just a term made up once that language became prominent ..were another Tribe of Canaanites .. along with the Edomites - Midianites - Moabites .. amalakies all the other Canaanite tribes .. none having a clue who this YHWH fellow was until the arrival of Moses. --- but that is another story.
They are just some Canaanite Tribes in the hill country in the early days .. they then fight the others .. become separate over time .. the fighting now a polemic against all the other tribes .. but the Hebrew people are all technically Canaanites .. out of Egypt or not. they went into Egypt as Canaanites .. and came out of Egypt as Canaanites .. with small changes.. integrating back into their previous kin.
the Tribes battle for supremicy .. taking some towns .. and have a bit of a reputation by around 1200 BC -- which is when the real start of the folks we know of as the Israelites begins - during the Bronze Age Collapse .. when the Hittite Empire disappears .. Poof .. Gone .. along with Greece and everywhere else .. Assyrians .. Babylonians .. this is a major apocalypse . dark age .. ... and with that .. comes the opportunity for these Tribal Warriors to build a little empire .. in this huge power vaccume .. you have the Israelits .. Philistines .. and Phonecians in control of the various regions.
The height of power of this little Empire is David sacking Jerusalem (something Joshua never did) and Solomon late 1000-950 BC. We know this little empire existed .. the house of Omri well attested to around 870 - The ruling dynasty of the Kingdom of Samaria -- Big time Northern Kingdom power the Omride-house had.
and thats it -- you had some Canaanite Nomadic Tribes take advantage of the Bronze Age Collapse .. outcompete the other tribes and take over many city states in the Region .. along with the Sea peoples who were stealing everything else.. Who ever these Tribal Groups Were -- they had some ancient myth about the origin of their God .. some great Prophet that came out of Egypt .. brought a few slaves with him .. .. and after 200 years some people that had lineage back to this guy had established 12 tribes. What ever .. doesn't matter .. what matters is that these tribes were able to take advantage of the Bronze age collapse .. these Tribes had a war God named Yahu of the Shasu that they would bring out in times of War .. one of the "Sons of EL" EL being the high God of the Canaanite Pantheon. .. as told us in Deut 32:8 -- "proper reading required" .. and this was the case during Solomon's day .. the Israelites were raging pagans the whole way through .. the bible tells us so..
It is only after YHWH is defeated by Assur in the northern Kingdom .. then once and for all the Temple destroyed "The place where YHWH's name Resides" is destroyed by Marduk "The main son of EL" surely you know the story .. that we have this syncretism of YHWH with EL and BAAL.
There was never "Monotheism" in the Israelite Religion and the Isrelites are gone from HIstory in 720 BC. No monotheism in Judah either until after the destruction of YHWH.. and the creation of Judaism .. in which YHWH is reborn as Ahura Mazda .. the Persian Uncreated One .. calling Cyrus the Annointed one of God .. that God Ahura Mazda .. but that is a tale for another day.
You have some Neo- Canaanite Tribal Warriors- who have Yahu as their Patron War God - manage to establish a small empire of sorts during the bronze age collapse .. part of their history includes some people from Egypt some of which were slaves integrating back into the nomatic canaanite Tribes.
All good in the hood .. likely what happened.
Bharat Jhunjhunwala
TruthPrevails
I was responding to this.
It's good that I have participated in this thread. I got to clear some of the cobwebs out of my brain and revisited some old tales of man's inhumanity to man. I've noticed that the vengeful spirits of old must be getting hungry with the current politics mixed in. I've seen Krishna dressed up as Moses. I look up at the full moon and remember what time of year it is. Yes, indeed, the vengeful spirits are out and hungry.
Trick or Treat! Happy Halloween!
Trick or Treat! Happy Halloween!
and what was your response ? Go back far enough and you cannot distinguish Hebrew from Canaanite .. is a simple fact. Heard that from the Yale Divinity Gal .... her 30 or so 1 hr long lectures on the OT ..
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Aupmanyav
Be your own guru
You missed this:
"Popular science presentations of the topic usually point out such possible misconceptions by emphasizing the fact that the position of mt-MRCA is neither fixed in time (as the position of mt-MRCA moves forward in time as mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) lineages become extinct), nor does it refer to a "first woman", nor the only living female of her time, nor the first member of a "new species"."
Mitochondrial Eve - Wikipedia
Aupmanyav
Be your own guru
Forget about Indus script, that is dead and gone. The current Indian scripts derive from Kharoshti. Kharosthi - Wikipedia
"The Kharoṣṭhī script (Kharosthi, also spelled Kharoshthi), also known as the Gāndhārī script, was an ancient Indo-Iranian script used by various peoples from the north-western outskirts of the Indian subcontinent (present-day Pakistan) to Central Asia via Afghanistan. An abugida, it was introduced at least by the middle of the 3rd century BCE, possibly during the 4th century BCE, and remained in use until it died out in its homeland around the 3rd century CE."
It was then replaced by Indian-born Brahmi. Brahmi script - Wikipedia
Why was it named Kharoshti? Because the coins showing horses resembled donkeys (Khar in North Indian languages). They were used on the Silk Road. That is what my historian grandpa told me in my childhood. He had studied the script.
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Aupmanyav
Be your own guru
@River Sea , the stories of Krishna and Moses quoted by Jhunjhunwala are different though Jhunjhunwala overlooks the difference.
Krishna was brought by his father to the house of his friend, Nanda, and then raised by his friend and his wife, Yashoda.
Moses was found in a basket in River Nile and then is supposed to have been raised by Pharaoh's wife.
The Moses story is closer to the story of Karna, the eldest of Pandava brothers and later a General of the Kaurava army, and the medieval saint Kabir, who were abandoned in baskets and floating in rivers, and then raised by people not connected with their birth, Karna by a charioteer and Kabir by a weaver. Of course, the images are nice. I do not think Moses was this pink and blond, being of Middle-Eastern descent.
Krishna was brought by his father to the house of his friend, Nanda, and then raised by his friend and his wife, Yashoda.
Moses was found in a basket in River Nile and then is supposed to have been raised by Pharaoh's wife.
The Moses story is closer to the story of Karna, the eldest of Pandava brothers and later a General of the Kaurava army, and the medieval saint Kabir, who were abandoned in baskets and floating in rivers, and then raised by people not connected with their birth, Karna by a charioteer and Kabir by a weaver. Of course, the images are nice. I do not think Moses was this pink and blond, being of Middle-Eastern descent.
River Sea
Well-Known Member
@Aupmanyav @Bharat Jhunjhunwala
I never thought about this. Moses has blond hair and white skin, which I see on the cover of the book. @Bharat Jhunjhunwala , how come you think Moses had blond hair and white skin? Often, I've seen this cover of the book, and I never thought about this until now. Oddly, how come I never gave this a thought?
I'll look up the story of Karna online because, no, I don't know this story. I didn't see the name Karna in the book Common Prophets. Can you help me know who Karna is? @Bharat Jhunjhunwala Can you help me with this? What was the similarity of this story, Karna? How come I can't find Karna in your book, unless this name is there and I didn't find it?
1) Comparing Karna to Krishna and Moses and what are the similarities—how to research this?
2) What was this Kaurava army? (I need to look this up yet.) Why was this army needed for, and how do I research this?
Here's Kaurava in @Bharat Jhunjhunwala book
River Sea
Well-Known Member
@AupmanyavForget about Indus script, that is dead and gone. The current Indian scripts derive from Kharoshti. Kharosthi - Wikipedia
"The Kharoṣṭhī script (Kharosthi, also spelled Kharoshthi), also known as the Gāndhārī script, was an ancient Indo-Iranian script used by various peoples from the north-western outskirts of the Indian subcontinent (present-day Pakistan) to Central Asia via Afghanistan. An abugida, it was introduced at least by the middle of the 3rd century BCE, possibly during the 4th century BCE, and remained in use until it died out in its homeland around the 3rd century CE."
It was then replaced by Indian-born Brahmi. Brahmi script - Wikipedia
Why was it named Kharoshti? Because the coins showing horses resembled donkeys (Khar in North Indian languages). They were used on the Silk Road. That is what my historian grandpa told me in my childhood. He had studied the script.
View attachment 84097
The memories you have of learning from your grandpa: did you ever travel the Silk Road with your grandpa? How did your grandpa study the script? Did he find these himself and then study them, or did he pursue study from only books and from others? How did your grandpa do research?
Look how detailed that horse is on that coin. They must have used molding, or how did they make these coins?
Aupmanyav
Be your own guru
Karna was the first illegitimate son of Kunti, the mother of three of the Pandavas. He is supposed to have been the son of Sun God. He was not a prophet, he was a warrior, the only one who could challange Arjuna in archery. At that time Kunti was unmarried, and she put Karna in a basket and let him go down the river, where he was picked up and raised by a charioteer. All four sons of Kunti (Yudhisthira, Arjun and Bhim too) were ******** and engendered by different Gods, as Kunti's husband, Pandu, could not cohabit with her because of a curse. The other two Pandavas (Nakul and Sahadev) were engendered by Ashwini Kumaras and born to the second wife of Pandu, Madri. That is how the myth goes. More information on Karna here: Karna - Wikipedia
1. Moses is completely irrelevant to Hinduism. Karna and Krishna had no similarities. The first was a human, the other an incarnation of God.
2. The Kurukshetra War, described in Mahabharata, was a war between two branches of the Kuru ruling family, the Kauravas and the Pandavas. Kauravas were the sons of Dhritarashtra while Pandavas were the sons of his brother, Pandu. The Pandavas wanted their share of the kingdom. Kauravas had their capital at Hastinapur on Ganga.
Jhunjhunwala is making an absolutely absurd suggestion that Hakra and Ganga are the same. No one in the Indian sub-continent, either in India or in Pakistan, would accept it. The suggestion is imbecile. The two rivers are hundreds of miles apart and have a mountain range between them (the Aravalis).
Jhunjhunwala's strategy is very clear, write bull****, publish it yourself because no regular publisher would accept it, price it high, put its name in forums, the world is huge, someone or the other will certainly buy it, the Abrahamics would jump at the suggestion that they and Hindus have common prophets, Amazon is there to help. Jhunjhunwala is a smart businessman. Does not the majority consist of fools? He is from my home state, Rajasthan. That is why we understand each other so very well.
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Aupmanyav
Be your own guru
How do I know a little of English? I have never traveled to a country which has English as a native language? We study in schools and from teachers. I have not even studied in an English medium Missionary school. I studied in government schools where we began studying English in VI standard. My grandpa, Bishweshwar Nath Reu, learnt Kharoshti from another historian, Gaurishankar Ojha. Both were awarded the highest scholarly title of 'Mahamahopadhyaya' (literally 'the greatest of the great teachers'
) by the British.Generally, stamping - punch-marked coins.
"A coin die was a stamp used to strike the coin with, this would imprint it with the design. The design would be cut into the die using engraving tools. One die was needed for the 'head' side and another for the 'tails' side."
Alright, I found something interesting: there are Sumerian inscriptions saying that there was a settlement of the inhabitants of Meluhha of the Indus Valley located near the ancient city-state of Girsu in Sumer. The settlement might have been referred to as Guabba. This might be a candidate for the "unknown country" that Krishna lead to people of Dwarka to.
en.wikipedia.org
There is also evidence of genetic mixing of the two areas:
en.wikipedia.org
Meluhha - Wikipedia
There is also evidence of genetic mixing of the two areas:
Indo-Mesopotamia relations - Wikipedia
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Aupmanyav
Be your own guru
@crossfire , I never said that there was no connection between India and Gulf Countries. Dholavira, Lothal and many other Indus Valley civilization ports (including Dwarka, Mul Dwarka - lit. the original dwarka, Kaj, Kanjotar) had trade with those people. Trade is OK, Gujaratis and Sindhis are proverbial traders, you can find them all over the globe. India had such trading stations and a temple in Turkmenistan also. But there is no evidence for a wholesale migration of a tribe outside India.
Then, there is no proof that these people were Yadavas? Aryan Yadus had yet not arrived in India.
Furthermore, I consider Krishna to be a composite of two deities, one at Mathura and the other at Dwarka, 842 miles away. In India, such a distance will engender at least 10 Gods.
"Mul Dwarka (Kodinar), a small coastal village near Kodinar in the district of Gir Somnath, Gujarat State is one of the three claimants of the original Dwarka of Mahabharata."
en.wikipedia.org
Then, there is no proof that these people were Yadavas? Aryan Yadus had yet not arrived in India.
Furthermore, I consider Krishna to be a composite of two deities, one at Mathura and the other at Dwarka, 842 miles away. In India, such a distance will engender at least 10 Gods.
"Mul Dwarka (Kodinar), a small coastal village near Kodinar in the district of Gir Somnath, Gujarat State is one of the three claimants of the original Dwarka of Mahabharata."
Kodinar - Wikipedia
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Audie
Veteran Member
What is interesting or important in any of that?
As per the OP ... it should come as no surprise that the Jews thought the Hebrews were slaves.
Audie
Veteran Member
No surprise is sorta like nothing here
worth discussing.
Funny.
Hebrew is not a people. It's a language. As written above "the Jews thought the Hebrews were slaves."
It's a funny use of terms.
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The wiki article says there are no mentions of Meluhha (or Melukhkha) after 1760 BCE. How does that timeline compare with the destruction of Dwarka? (Also the word Melukhkha {with the k sounds} seems familiar to me for some reason. Does it have something to do with mountains? If so, then it is probably not Dwarka.)@crossfire , I never said that there was no connection between India and Gulf Countries. Dholavira, Lothal and many other Indus Valley civilization ports (including Dwarka, Mul Dwarka - lit. the original dwarka, Kaj, Kanjotar) had trade with those people. Trade is OK, Gujaratis and Sindhis are proverbial traders, you can find them all over the globe. India had such trading stations and a temple in Turkmenistan also. But there is no evidence for a wholesale migration of a tribe outside India.
Then, there is no proof that these people were Yadavas? Aryan Yadus had yet not arrived in India.
Furthermore, I consider Krishna to be a composite of two deities, one at Mathura and the other at Dwarka, 842 miles away. In India, such a distance will engender at least 10 Gods.
"Mul Dwarka (Kodinar), a small coastal village near Kodinar in the district of Gir Somnath, Gujarat State is one of the three claimants of the original Dwarka of Mahabharata."
Kodinar - Wikipedia
View attachment 84134
Abram (before he was called Abraham) was called "a Hebrew" in Genesis 14:13. There are other instances referring to Hebrews as a people, as well.
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