Yemeni child bride dies after internal bleeding on marriage night

[ImmortalFlame]

You should read my post more often, especially before you try and accuse me of such. **** off.

And your lack of answering a simple question while painting the majority of Muslim posters here as pro-child marriage is still unjustified and pathetic.

You are getting far too defensive and personal here. As far as I am aware, nobody here is claiming that "all" or even "most" Muslims are pro-child marriage. In fact, most Muslims in this thread have clearly stated their objection to the practice. However, some of those same posters appear to be making excuses for child marriage and the practice of it within certain cultures. You are essentially trying to divert the issue through hyperbole and insults rather than actually trying to discuss the opinions and objections being raised. If you feel someone is making claims about Muslims (or anything else) that you find objectionable, then object. There is no need for the insults, bad language or the general lack of respect you are showing here. It will only hurt your argument in the long run.

 

[Assad91]

You are getting far too defensive and personal here. As far as I am aware, nobody here is claiming that "all" or even "most" Muslims are pro-child marriage. In fact, most Muslims in this thread have clearly stated their objection to the practice. However, some of those same posters appear to be making excuses for child marriage and the practice of it within certain cultures. You are essentially trying to divert the issue through hyperbole and insults rather than actually trying to discuss the opinions and objections being raised. If you feel someone is making claims about Muslims (or anything else) that you find objectionable, then object. There is no need for the insults, bad language or the general lack of respect you are showing here. It will only hurt your argument in the long run.

I have not once defended child marriage or pedophilia.

Yet am accused of such. And the accuser fails to bring the evidence.

And you wonder why I am, for lack of better words, ****** off?

 

[ImmortalFlame]

I have not once defended child marriage or pedophilia.

Yet am accused of such. And the accuser fails to bring the evidence.

I see him incorrectly attribute a post to you, realize his mistake, and then apologize for doing so. What I don't see is you acknowledging that mistake or that apology.

And you wonder why I am, for lack of better words, ****** off?

Yes, especially considering they've already apologized and explained the mistake. Is there more to this that I'm not aware of?

 

[Assad91]

I see him incorrectly attribute a post to you, realize his mistake, and then apologize for doing so. What I don't see is you acknowledging that mistake or that apology.


Yes, especially considering they've already apologized and explained the mistake. Is there more to this that I'm not aware of?

Yes there is more. You must've missed the post here

Someone else placed a link and then state girls turned into women between 8 and 16. I owe you a apology for that sorry, my mistake.

But your hot and fighting this whole thread instead of working for a way to stop this primitive behaviour.

Im proud to have muslim family but I dont go around trying to defend it from those who have credible criticism. But for some reason you are.

Correct not all muslim scholars accept this I understand, it is those that do why we are talking about this.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Yes there is more. You must've missed the post here

He isn't saying that you are defending child marriage. He is saying that you are defending Islam from credible criticism.

"Im proud to have muslim family but I dont go around trying to defend it from those who have credible criticism. But for some reason you are."

 

[FearGod]

He isn't saying that you are defending child marriage. He is saying that you are defending Islam from credible criticism.

"Im proud to have muslim family but I dont go around trying to defend it from those who have credible criticism. But for some reason you are."

Islam has nothing to do with child marriage.
How many times we should repeat it for most of you to understand.

it is a cultural thing

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Islam has nothing to do with child marriage.
How many times we should repeat it for most of you to understand.

it is a cultural thing

I'm not saying it isn't. Outhouse believes that their may be some causal relation (I think), so I would encourage you to ask him of his reasoning. It may be less to do with Islamic practices than it is to do with Islamic societies (or cultures) happening to be the ones that permit or encourage child marriage. Again, you'd have to ask Outhouse. I'm probably not accurately representing their views.

 

[outhouse]

I'm not saying it isn't. Outhouse believes that their may be some causal relation (I think), so I would encourage you to ask him of his reasoning. It may be less to do with Islamic practices than it is to do with Islamic societies (or cultures) happening to be the ones that permit or encourage child marriage. Again, you'd have to ask Outhouse. I'm probably not accurately representing their views.

My main case are those in this very thread who have not only defended it, but admitted to it.

Added to the information, that their hero/messiah also possibly committed this barbaric act.


It is a problem, and while I dont have all the answers, something needs to be done, and excuses dont cut it.

 

[LuisDantas]

One should however point out that Islamic societies (which are still curiously elusive, to the point that it is unclear if there was ever any) seem to have failed at discouraging those practices, despite their apparent success at attaining other goals.

So I ask.

1. Should Yemen (55% Sunni, 45% Shia) be considered an Islamic society?

2. Should we expect an Islamic society to consider avoiding child marriage part of his duty?

3. Whose responsibility is it to call for better moral principles in Yemen, if the need is perceived? Is it in part Islam's? Is it completely so?

4. Are there separate sources of responsibility for (say) the avoidance of events such as that criminal child "marriage" and the avoidance of divorce and adultery in Yemen? Which would those be?

 

[outhouse]

1. Should Yemen (55% Sunni, 45% Shia) be considered an Islamic society?

Yes

2. Should we expect an Islamic society to consider avoiding child marriage part of his duty?

Yes

3. Whose responsibility is it to call for better moral principles in Yemen, if the need is perceived?

Its tough, because the culture isnt democratic per say as far as I know, religion is tied into the governement and its decisions.

Is it in part Islam's?

I believe so.

Is it completely so?

Not entirely so.

What percentage I do not know, and claim ignorance.

4. Are there separate sources of responsibility for (say) the avoidance of events such as that criminal child "marriage" and the avoidance of divorce and adultery in Yemen?

Religious police? like other countries. I dont know their cultural system of law.

 

[Assad91]

My main case are those in this very thread who have not only defended it, but admitted to it.

Who was what, one person? ONE out of the whole amount of Muslims in this thread. It is no wonder the majority of the Muslim community stayed away. Smart peeps

Added to the information, that their hero/messiah also possibly committed this barbaric act.

Which is a point of argument as many of us believe it is a false fabricated hadith.

It is a problem, and while I dont have all the answers, something needs to be done, and excuses dont cut it.

No one has made excuses. It has been stated that it is inexcusable and is a shame and wrong thing to engage in.

 

[Assad91]

1. Should Yemen (55% Sunni, 45% Shia) be considered an Islamic society?

I don't think so. I don't think any Islamic society is the right representative of Islam.

As I personally don't think a country can be ran by Islam in full until the Imam (May Allah hasten his return). The best we have are the jurist but that is a different topic.

2. Should we expect an Islamic society to consider avoiding child marriage part of his duty?

We should expect an Islamic society to defend righteousness. To enjoin the good and forbid the evil and to stand for the oppressed.

3. Whose responsibility is it to call for better moral principles in Yemen, if the need is perceived? Is it in part Islam's? Is it completely so?

It is the responsibility of every scholar and righteous person. Especially in stopping the trend of selling the daughters for monetary gain. Astigfurllah, the Prophet (pbuh&hf) said a daughter is a mercy. The husband to be should be of similar state. Similar age, mature in mind and body, and to a rightous soul. Not to the highest bidder.

4. Are there separate sources of responsibility for (say) the avoidance of events such as that criminal child "marriage" and the avoidance of divorce and adultery in Yemen? Which would those be?

What do you mean?

 

[Monk Of Reason]

Child sexual abuse is a huge hot button for me. Its not even a debatable issue and I can't really keep my cool when people defend it. Yes I know FearGod has renounced the actions but he continues to defend and deflect the practices. I don't feel that my personal morality should be the one that reigns supreme over the world but I think that raping children should simply be understood as wrong.

OK Monk, you have made your opinion abundantly clear. That said, I would never have allowed my daughter to marry at 16 years old but her grandmother did and celebrated her 50th wedding anniversary.

I have but two questions for you.

1. Who gets to decide what is right and what is wrong?

2. What do you suggest can be done about it?

I don't want anyone dictating to me what is right and what is wrong and telling me I should allow a 16 year old child of mine to be married.

So how are you going to enforce your judgements on others?

Should they be able to enforce their judgements on you?

I am personally opposed to child marriage, but what right do I have to judge other cultures? If a man marries a child and is a faithful loving caring husband to her, that is different from nabbing her off the street and leaving her alone and abused and saying this is the same thing.

1) I feel there is evidence for a base morality. That means I don't feel all morality is relative. The specifics on certain things are hard to decipher. But it is fairly unanimous among modern cultures that having sex with children is intolerable. As is murder ect.

2) I find sexual abuse and especially sexual abuse against children to be abhorrent behavior. There is well documented cases that supports the secular argument against sexual relations with children. This appeal towards homosexuality does not have the same secular reasoning.

Unfortunately there is not much to be done. I simply don't tolerate it at all. There is nothing I can do as many children are being raped all across the world right now as you even read this. I can't stop it. You can't stop it. The stance I have is that I will never accept this as a social norm. Its my personal opinion on the matter. And to be sure I'm not talking about some 16 year old girl I'm talking about underage children who are undeveloped and more or less incapable of sexual undertakings.

 

[Assad91]

Yes I know FearGod has renounced the actions but he continues to defend and deflect the practices.

So he renounced, yet supposedly defends it? How weird

 

[Monk Of Reason]

So he renounced, yet supposedly defends it? How weird

Its been confusing for me. Apparently earlier in the thread he has said its wrong but argues from the point that there is nothing wrong with it. So I don't know what to make of it.

 

[Assad91]

Its been confusing for me. Apparently earlier in the thread he has said its wrong but argues from the point that there is nothing wrong with it. So I don't know what to make of it.

I have only seen him renounce it as a cultural thing and not something that is Islamically correct

 

[ImmortalFlame]

So he renounced, yet supposedly defends it? How weird

So do you not think that the following statement, and FearGod's response to it, is in any way defending child marriage as a cultural practice?

I am personally opposed to child marriage, but what right do I have to judge other cultures? If a man marries a child and is a faithful loving caring husband to her, that is different from nabbing her off the street and leaving her alone and abused and saying this is the same thing.

Perfectly said. :yes:

 

[Monk Of Reason]

I have only seen him renounce it as a cultural thing and not something that is Islamically correct

I have never argued it is an Islamist thing. I don't agree with Islam but I know enough of them that pedophilia isn't part of the religion. .

 

[Assad91]

So do you not think that the following statement, and FearGod's response to it, is in any way defending child marriage as a cultural practice?

I see him simply agreeing not to be too judgemental over other cultures. But he has stated he is against such practice himself.

Why not get on Rev Rick instead of just bash all us Muslims?

 

[LuisDantas]

Thanks for your answers, Assad.

Help me further if you will be so kind, because I have a hard time with some parts. For now:

I don't think so. I don't think any Islamic society is the right representative of Islam.

Virtually everyone in Yemen claims to be a Muslim, yet it is not a Islamic society and/or is not a right representative of Islam?

Is that what you are saying?

I truly have a hard time wrapping my head around this. There must be something important that I am just not understanding.

As I personally don't think a country can be ran by Islam in full until the Imam (May Allah hasten his return). The best we have are the jurist but that is a different topic.

But in the meantime we are still expected to acknowledge and respect the Islamic religious rights of those societies of Muslims that somehow are not quite Islamic?

In all honesty, it sometimes looks like many societies are Islamic just until the time to admit some shortcoming comes.

We should expect an Islamic society to defend righteousness. To enjoin the good and forbid the evil and to stand for the oppressed.

We should expect (or at least demand and encourage) that of any society, don't we?

It is the responsibility of every scholar and righteous person. Especially in stopping the trend of selling the daughters for monetary gain. Astigfurllah, the Prophet (pbuh&hf) said a daughter is a mercy. The husband to be should be of similar state. Similar age, mature in mind and body, and to a rightous soul. Not to the highest bidder.

Well said.

What do you mean?

Who has the authority, right and duty to encourage and/or pressure the people of Yemen into avoiding child "marriage"?

Who has the authority, right and duty to encourage and/or pressure Yemen husbands and wives to be faithful to each other?

If the answers to those two questions are not one and the same, why is it so?