Yemeni child bride dies after internal bleeding on marriage night

[Assad91]

I will look into your claims concerning Aisha

:clap:clap:clap:clap What a start

Though I am not holding my breath as bigotry is hard to kill

 

[1robin]

Yeah, you didn't see it continously explained in the other thread. Anyway, here
[youtube]HXCvnposB1k[/youtube]
Did the Prophet (sawa) marry Aisha at 6 years of age? - YouTube






http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/3423947-post740.html

As for why most muslims believe different, I ask for actual proof of it.

I have never debated or met a Muslim that not only believed it but defended his marriage to a young girl, and I have known and debated plenty. The net is full of long and exhaustive defenses for it. That is where I got my impression that it was a given in Islam. I can grant my impression could be wrong and will investigate but I doubt there is a poll that covers this. I see you finally supplied some actual reason why you don't believe this and will look into what you posted.

No it isn't. And I question your honesty as most orthodox christians believe that Jesus will rule the earth.

That occurs after Armageddon or at least after the end of this Biblical era. I do not want to get into tribulation debates because it is irrelevant. I did not mean Earthly or spiritual in a location sense and I thought that was so obvious it did not need to be stated. I meant that Islam has a corporate, jurisprudence, or state side Christianity does not. Christianity survives by virtue of it's spiritual truth, it needs no nations to control, no legislation to enforce, and no trials if someone wishes to leave the faith. There is no Christian nation on Earth, there are many Islamic nations. I am out of time. I actually have lunch with a Palestinian from Jordan. Strange thing to do if I thought they were all pedophiles and demons. Let's drop the victim routine and see if we can actually resolve a meaningful issue. I will finish researching this as soon as I can.

 

[1robin]

No sorry, nowhere in the Quran does it say Mohommad practiced it, nor supported it. That would be called a Hadith, which are stories written by men about the Prophet. According to the Quran itself, you are only supposed to follow the Quran, following anything else besides the Quran makes you a disbeliever.

Let me make sure you understand what I claimed first. I meant the marrying a child part not any of the rest. Before we get to the Quran it is a very widely held belief Muhammad married a child even among Muslims. As a Christian I do not find instructions about which book is the true book binding on me. I am only interested in which books are the most reliable (history wise). I will get to which books are if I have time but wanted to respond quickly to this.

http://www.ahl-alquran.com/English/document.php?page_id=918

The Koran vs. Sharia at a glance

http://www.ahl-alquran.com/English/document.php?page_id=918 I do not think this would have any relevance to me. I am not stuck with what Muhammad or any other Muslim claims as to hierarchy. I am only bound to what is most historically reliable.

number 4

Surat Al-Ma'idah - The Noble Qur'an - ?????? ??????

Verse 44, Allah revealed the Quran to Momhammed, and only the Quran. Hadith is almost unanimously excepted by the Muslim community to be written by men, and not revealed by Allah.

I do not believe either book was revealed by Allah so internal rules do not apply to non-Muslim scholarship.

However your Holy book directly mentions taking women children from conquered tribes. But don't worry it's only the virgin little girls. Oh yeah and it also says to kill all the "little ones" that are males. So we have pedophilia and child killing within one section of 18 verses.

What the Bible says about pedophilia

Something mentioned in a book that contains simple history is not necessarily justified by it's author. The Bible records theft, murder, and thousands of things God is not in favor of. I do not know what this was supposed to prove and oh "I know you are but what am I" is a poor defense anyway.

Lol, I didn't know people like you still existed. I guess natural selection doesn't hold any merit.

Come off it man. Acting hostile and trivial is of no help to Islam. I have never met a Muslim and I know plenty that denied this, they defended Muhammad's right to do it fervently. Had lunch today with a PLO from Jordan as a matter of fact.

Do you realize how ridicuous your views look to everyone?

You mean those people that send me regular messages agreeing with me. Islam should be the last group to comment on the public imagine of anyone else.

Considering the level of ignorance of your posts, I highly doubt that you've talked to many Muslims.

Your wrong and petty as well. I sure hope this gets better further on.

Wrong, specific terrorist groups that claim association with Islam have denied the right of Israel to exist, not the right to life of the Jewish people. And even beyond that, Turkey has ever threatened Israel's existence, nor lives of Jewish people, and that is a majority Muslim country.

I supplied two official statements from the PLO how many more do you need?

It's no wonder why people think have the view of Christianity that they do.

Yes, adding the equivalent of the population of Nevada every year to Christianity is a sure sign we are in trouble, and we don't even call the Christians at birth and have 5 kids per women, nor do we make it a capital crime if you wish to leave the faith and we are still the most popular religion in human history. If you wish to stick to the issues fine but I just can justify responding to stuff like this any further.

 

[1robin]

:clap:clap:clap:clap What a start

Though I am not holding my breath as bigotry is hard to kill

I am tied up with work stuff currently but have read at least a hundred pages of research concerning Aisha. Both views have very good support. It almost seems to be who wrote it as to which view is proven. I did find much additional information concerning the prevalence of belief that she was very young in Islam in general. I will supply it all as soon as I have time if you will keep the personal sarcasm to a minimum.

 

[1robin]

You didn't use the words themselves.

But its what you implied. And if you can't see how one would come to that conclusion with your insistence that all Muslims agree the Prophet (sawa) did such an act (astigfurllah), and that we follow him as the infallible, perfect man, then you have some problems.

I never implied, thought or intended to imply or think that all Muslims are pedophiles or demons. That is not even a coherent thing to claim. Quit reading between the lines to find justification for this woe is me victimhood stuff. Islam's problems are almost exclusively caused by Muslims. Not stuff I never wrote nor thought. I have dated Muslims, had lunch with one today, hang out with 3 from work (or two now that one left), and my sisters house guest until she got married was a Muslim Pakistani so lets loose the whole every one hates us rhetoric and talk about the issues before I run out of patience with this trivial, petty, garbage.

 

[Alceste]

No, mans definition has changed. While I don't condone child adult marriages, I see a big difference between children fornicating and a girl who stands before God and promises to love honor and obey her older husband. We let children decide to get saved at an early age. If a 12 year old can make a spiritual decision why do they lack the ability to get married? Young marriage is wrong, but a willful participant in a marriage is not rape, but obviously painful deadly sex were the girl died would be rape. Yes, you can rape your wife. I think I should ask you the same question about Paul or should I say Saul. Many Christians worship his words over what Jesus said.

Paul, almost tried to be Jesus himself if you read Acts objectively. Try reading the Bible and remove what Paul and Luke wrote some time. The message changes big time.

Did God send Mohammad to set things right after Pauls perversion of Abrahamic faith?

I am really not sure, I was not there and I am not a Muslim, but one thing I know, they don't eat pork, (do you really think God approves of that?), they pray every few hours, (how often do most Christians pray when they are deluded into thinking the law means nothing and grace is everything), they don't drink, cuss, smoke, get tattoos, have rampant divorce rates like most Christians in churches who have been married several times and act all holy.

So yes, I think Muhammad has lead a great nation of 2 billion people as promised by God. These folks answer to God the father. Why should we not pray to the father any more?


I will no comment on this, BUT

Why do you believe that? Show me in the Bible were all of God's promises are not perfect.

So what you're basically saying, Rick, that it's totally OK for an adult man to have sex with an eight year old girl as long as she says it's OK?

Guess what, it's still rape. There are damn good reasons we don't allow adult men to have sex with little girls. Mystic listed a few. They relate to the heightened risk of serious physical and psychological damage to the child, including possible death while trying to bring forth a child from the immature body of a child. Whether or not someone has talked the child into agreeing to it is completely irrelevant.

 

[Father Heathen]

This has nothing to do with sexual slavery and it is not promoting anything. This concerns servitude and I have written exhaustively on it here. For now I will just give a few pertinent facts but the in depth posts on it can easily be found.

How is forced marriage anything other than sexual slavery (which constitutes rape)?

1. The laws concerning servitude in the Bible are the most benevolent known to exist in the ANE by far.

Not really: Exodus 21:20-21,

2. God tolerated slavery just as he tolerated divorce, because of the sin of man.

Slavery oppresses and victimizes. Divorce does not. Only a fool would try to compare the two.

God never instituted slavery. He found it practiced and modified it to be the most benevolent form of servitude known at the time.

So it took man to do better than god to abolish slavery and to liberate the enslaved?

A verse designed to punish rape is not an example of what you claimed.

Forcing a victim of rape to marry her assailant is one of the worse possible things you could do to her. It punishes the victim, puts her at the mercy of the rapist (where, as his "wife", he can continue to rape her with impunity) and turns her life into a hellish nightmare. Nope, such a law reflects the depraved savagery of a primitive culture.

I think you do not realize God was not setting his own kingdom up, he was taking a kingdom of man and changing it as much as our nature would allow to make it more orderly and benevolent. If God liked slavery and rape why when he does institute his own kingdom are they abolished permanently. I think you confuse permission with approval.

Yet we mere mortals have done a much better in addressing and correcting such injustices. Maybe god (as portrayed by the bible) should sit on our lap and take notes?

Fortunately, if there is a god, the abrahamic perceptions and portrayals (or those of any other religion for that matter) are fare beneath him.

 

[Reverend Rick]

So what you're basically saying, Rick, that it's totally OK for an adult man to have sex with an eight year old girl as long as she says it's OK?

No, that is not what I am basically saying. I have been very clear about my position.

I will tell you what I read from you, you want to demonise 2 billion Muslims trying to say they condone child marriage while insulting their prophet (PBUH) with inconclusive attacks about the age of his wife.

Why not just admit none of us know for sure how old she was when their marriage was consummated?

I will tell you why, because of your obvious biased hatred. Making Muslims the boogy man is unjust when there are so many other countries which are not Muslim that do the very same thing.

This is a culture thing as well as a regional thing.

I believe it is ignorant to expect third world countries to be held to the same standards of first world countries especially when we don't really even have our own act together.

Are women being treated perfectly anywhere on earth?

Now, if you're really interested in what I think, we should find solutions for this terrible problem and not attack a whole religion.

Do you really think insulting people will solve anything? This has been going on for centuries, I have to ask what you have been doing to really affect change beside being insulting.

People who do this are ignorant, we need to educate them and help them if you are really interested in improving conditions for women around the world.

You really need to actually see where these people live and take a look at their resourses before you judge them by first world standards.

 

[outhouse]

You can stick up for them and make all the excuses in the world that sound great.

But what happened to the child in the OP is due to a sick barbaric people following primitive cultural and religious practices that are sick and perverted.

How many little girls have to die Rick before you quit making excuses?

Obviously 1 little innocent girl wasn't enough for you, how many before you turn back to civilized laws and actions? Does 10 little innocent girls death change your view, or is it a 100 that will do it?

Ever since I have been here, I have placed you in very high esteem despite your devoted religious belief. But your loosing me here.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

No, that is not what I am basically saying. I have been very clear about my position.

I will tell you what I read from you, you want to demonise 2 billion Muslims trying to say they condone child marriage while insulting their prophet (PBUH) with inconclusive attacks about the age of his wife.

Why not just admit none of us know for sure how old she was when their marriage was consummated?

I will tell you why, because of your obvious biased hatred. Making Muslims the boogy man is unjust when there are so many other countries which are not Muslim that do the very same thing.

This is a culture thing as well as a regional thing.

I believe it is ignorant to expect third world countries to be held to the same standards of first world countries especially when we don't really even have our own act together.

Are women being treated perfectly anywhere on earth?

Now, if you're really interested in what I think, we should find solutions for this terrible problem and not attack a whole religion.

Do you really think insulting people will solve anything? This has been going on for centuries, I have to ask what you have been doing to really affect change beside being insulting.

People who do this are ignorant, we need to educate them and help them if you are really interested in improving conditions for women around the world.

You really need to actually see where these people live and take a look at their resourses before you judge them by first world standards.

Rick, I've addressed the topic more than a few times, and many of my posts have been glossed over repeatedly with people wanting to focus on whether or not Muhammed is being insulted. I've refrained from making it a Muslim issue and focused on facts concerning the risks of child mortality (both child female and infant mortality). The 11-year-old died in the OP, and that is what I want to focus on regarding how I think things like this should stop...

In our culture, in Yemeni culture, and in cultures around the world.

My focus has been on education. I've been arguing exactly for what you're wanting to see, but my attempts at placing education at the forefront has repeatedly been ignored.

This is a problem. Not because it's from me. But because education attempts when people are more concerned about religious mud-slinging become all lost in the scuffle. It all becomes about "Stop insulting me!" "Well, it deserves to be insulted!" "But insulting isn't right!" "Well then stop defending things that are atrocious!"

I gave my ideas on what to focus on with education. So, since you agree with education being paramount, what would you do to educate?

 

[outhouse]

Making Muslims the boogy man is unjust when there are so many other countries which are not Muslim that do the very same thing.

Some muslims are the boogy man. We are at war with the muslim boogy men.

9/11 how many died to muslim boogy men?

I believe it is ignorant to expect third world countries to be held to the same standards of first world countries especially when we don't really even have our own act together.

Because these third world countries love war. violence and perversion of their women and children.

Does not mean we let them keep being barbaric and uncivilized.


People have to fight to stop this Rick. Sweeping it under the rug and saying muslims are innocent lets talk about something else doesn't cut it.




.

 

[outhouse]

"Well then stop defending things that are atrocious!"

Ive stated the same thing from the start.

They don't get a "get out of jail free" card this time

There is no excuse.

 

[Father Heathen]

No, mans definition has changed. While I don't condone child adult marriages, I see a big difference between children fornicating and a girl who stands before God and promises to love honor and obey her older husband.

Such a "promise" is meaningless. A child is naive and ignorant, lacking any genuine knowledge or understanding of what's she's being manipulated into. If there is a god, he wouldn't approve of such a ghastly, ghoulish abuse of a child.

We let children decide to get saved at an early age. If a 12 year old can make a spiritual decision why do they lack the ability to get married?

They can't make any such decision, "spiritual" or otherwise.

Young marriage is wrong, but a willful participant in a marriage is not rape

As we've said a billion times; a child lacks the responsibility and maturity to make informed consent, and there is the issue of pressure, power, and coercion. So, nope, sorry.

I'm most disheartened and disappointed in you, Rick. Why would you disavow your honor, integrity, and very humanity to defend such abhorrent filth?

 

[Father Heathen]

Is anything evil or morally correct without God. If you can have evil without a law and lawgiver to say which is which (something that is impossible) then why is kids having sex not evil?

It's called reason, compassion, honor,and integrity. Hocus pocus is not a prerequisite for morality. I would define "evil" as anything that victimizes or violates the rights of innocent people. Actions are weighed by their consequences. Some things can be irresponsible, unhealthy, foolish, etc. so they're "bad" as in undesirable, but not "evil" as in malicious or unjust.

Sex outside marriage has worked out so well in tearing families apart and creating kids who do not even know who their parents are, defies the "healthy" designation.

There are these things called "contraceptives".

I do not agree with almost anything fear God says but suggesting he not debate is a little too much and not appropriate but never fear, I never report anyone for anything unlike many others.

Yes, I was out of line, but I simply have no patience for willful ignorance and intellectual dishonesty, one of the gravest "sins" in my book.

 

[Reverend Rick]

You can stick up for them and make all the excuses in the world that sound great.

But what happened to the child in the OP is due to a sick barbaric people following primitive cultural and religious practices that are sick and perverted.

How many little girls have to die Rick before you quit making excuses?

Obviously 1 little innocent girl wasn't enough for you, how many before you turn back to civilized laws and actions? Does 10 little innocent girls death change your view, or is it a 100 that will do it?

Ever since I have been here, I have placed you in very high esteem despite your devoted religious belief. But your loosing me here.

Slow down man, my church builds schools in these countries and tries to educate them. I donate to the Eliminate Project where young children have their babies lying in the dirt.

I don't see Muslims selling their daughters or marrying young in first world countries do you?

What I am saying is 1400 years ago our own families might have married young.

How many times do I have to say I think child marriage is wrong?

Everyone agrees what happened to that little girl was terrible.

The logic I take issue with is attacking religion like it is the problem, if that were true we would see this in every Muslim country right?

 

[outhouse]

The logic I take issue with is attacking religion like it is the problem, if that were true we would see this in every Muslim country right?

Fair enough.

There is something here about the religion that is at fault. Make no mistake about it.


Just because it isn't the majority, god I hope its not! doesn't mean it is innocent.


NO one here is saying all muslims are guilty or bad. No one is saying all of the religion is faulty.


But dangit, if a religion is so self righteous that it cannot correct itself, it should be scrapped. Make no mistake about what I state here. If a religion cannot grow and evolve forward, it should be scrapped.

 

[Reverend Rick]

Fair enough.

There is something here about the religion that is at fault. Make no mistake about it.


Just because it isn't the majority, god I hope its not! doesn't mean it is innocent.


NO one here is saying all muslims are guilty or bad. No one is saying all of the religion is faulty.


But dangit, if a religion is so self righteous that it cannot correct itself, it should be scrapped. Make no mistake about what I state here. If a religion cannot grow and evolve forward, it should be scrapped.

My friend, people have been doing terrible things by twisting religion into something it should not be for all time.

If a person mows down 10 people with a car, we should not get rid of cars.

What you are seeing here is a violent child molestor, not a religious man.

 

[Alceste]

No, that is not what I am basically saying. I have been very clear about my position.

I will tell you what I read from you, you want to demonise 2 billion Muslims trying to say they condone child marriage while insulting their prophet (PBUH) with inconclusive attacks about the age of his wife.

Why not just admit none of us know for sure how old she was when their marriage was consummated?

I will tell you why, because of your obvious biased hatred. Making Muslims the boogy man is unjust when there are so many other countries which are not Muslim that do the very same thing.

This is a culture thing as well as a regional thing.

I believe it is ignorant to expect third world countries to be held to the same standards of first world countries especially when we don't really even have our own act together.

Are women being treated perfectly anywhere on earth?

Now, if you're really interested in what I think, we should find solutions for this terrible problem and not attack a whole religion.

Do you really think insulting people will solve anything? This has been going on for centuries, I have to ask what you have been doing to really affect change beside being insulting.

People who do this are ignorant, we need to educate them and help them if you are really interested in improving conditions for women around the world.

You really need to actually see where these people live and take a look at their resourses before you judge them by first world standards.

Clearly you haven't been reading my posts. I condemn all child molesters and advocates of child molesting regardless of their religion and nationality, and I have not personally pursued the tangent about Mohammed possibly being a child molester himself. That's just literature as far as I'm concerned. Most Muslims, unlike yourself, are unflinching in their condemnation of grown men having sex with little girls.

 

[Reverend Rick]

This is a problem. Not because it's from me. But because education attempts when people are more concerned about religious mud-slinging become all lost in the scuffle. It all becomes about "Stop insulting me!" "Well, it deserves to be insulted!" "But insulting isn't right!" "Well then stop defending things that are atrocious!"

Who is defending what this monster did?

I gave my ideas on what to focus on with education. So, since you agree with education being paramount, what would you do to educate?

Not what would I do, what we are doing presently, building schools in these areas.

I never plug anything here, but I absolutely support the eliminate project. While we give away immunizations, we also interact, build trust, and educate women.

 

[Assad91]

I have never debated or met a Muslim that not only believed it but defended his marriage to a young girl, and I have known and debated plenty. The net is full of long and exhaustive defenses for it. That is where I got my impression that it was a given in Islam. I can grant my impression could be wrong and will investigate but I doubt there is a poll that covers this. I see you finally supplied some actual reason why you don't believe this and will look into what you posted.

There are many people online arguing different. You must not have spoken to that many Muslims.

Maybe you purposefully argue with extremist?

That occurs after Armageddon or at least after the end of this Biblical era. I do not want to get into tribulation debates because it is irrelevant. I did not mean Earthly or spiritual in a location sense and I thought that was so obvious it did not need to be stated. I meant that Islam has a corporate, jurisprudence, or state side Christianity does not.

YOUR version of Christianity doesn't....anymore. But there are who do! And don't forget how American and the West is built upon Judeo-Christianit values

Christianity survives by virtue of it's spiritual truth, it needs no nations to control, no legislation to enforce, and no trials if someone wishes to leave the faith. There is no Christian nation on Earth, there are many Islamic nations.

And I have spoken earlier in this thread on the whole "Islamic nation" spiel. Maybe go back a few pages?

I am out of time. I actually have lunch with a Palestinian from Jordan. Strange thing to do if I thought they were all pedophiles and demons. Let's drop the victim routine and see if we can actually resolve a meaningful issue. I will finish researching this as soon as I can.

Oh my, lunch with a Palestinian.

You know David Duke is still a bigot, even if he has lunch with a black