Yemeni child bride dies after internal bleeding on marriage night

[ImmortalFlame]

Do you accept the fact that Yemen does not have a "culture that permits or encourages the abuse of children through underage marriage", as per the table shown in one of my previous posts and the percentages given regarding religious majority-affiliations?

I have no idea whether or not it does. The table doesn't really demonstrate anything other than that child marriage is more common in other countries - it doesn't really demonstrate anything about the Yemeni culture whatsoever. And why should I have to accept anything about Yemen if I never mentioned anything about it in the first place?

 

[Alceste]

The table clearly shows that child marriage is not a part of Yemenite culture - since for it to be a part of Yemenite culture: it would have to be a majority-wise occurrence; and since Yemen is not a part of that list - Yemen doesn't have a "culture that permits or encourages the abuse of children through underage marriage". Since the thread is about a horrid event that happened in Yemen, thus my resounding concern in bringing Yemen into my posts in a consistent manner in order to show that such a horrid thing is not part of the Yemenite culture.

And, you don't have to accept anything. I was merely asking whether you accept the fact that Yemen does not have (as you eloquently put it) a "culture that permits or encourages the abuse of children through underage marriage".

It's only your personal opinion that a culture that is tolerant or supportive of child rape requires a majority of marriages be to little girls. Not a fact.

Please learn the difference.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

The table clearly shows that child marriage is not a part of Yemenite culture - since for it to be a part of Yemenite culture: it would have to be a majority-wise occurrence; and since Yemen is not a part of that list - Yemen doesn't have a "culture that permits or encourages the abuse of children through underage marriage".

That's a nonsense argument. The prevalence of a certain practice has nothing to do with the attitude towards it or the culture's permissiveness of it. It's not about numbers, it's about attitudes. The table says absolutely nothing on that issue whatsoever.

Since the thread is about a horrid event that happened in Yemen, thus my resounding concern in bringing Yemen into my posts in a consistent manner in order to show that such a horrid thing is not part of the Yemenite culture.

Then do it with good evidence. Showing that child marriage is more common in other countries doesn't mean anything.

And, you don't have to accept anything. I was merely asking whether you accept the fact that Yemen does not have (as you eloquently put it) a "culture that permits or encourages the abuse of children through underage marriage".

I don't accept the "fact" since you have yet to sufficiently demonstrate it. I don't accept any real position with regards to Yemeni culture as I am, frankly, uninformed on the subject, but if you wish to demonstrate that there is no such abusive culture in Yemen it will take something a lot more complicated than a single table. We're talking about deep-rooted historical, socio-politicial and (in some cases, maybe) religious issues and how they can inform or influence a societies perception of certain practices that much of the rest of the world condemns as barbaric. You cannot merely produce some statistics and immediately claim the market on facts in this debate.

 

[Alceste]

That's a nonsense argument. The prevalence of a certain practice has nothing to do with the attitude towards it or the culture's permissiveness of it. It's not about numbers, it's about attitudes. The table says absolutely nothing on that issue whatsoever.


Then do it with good evidence. Showing that child marriage is more common in other countries doesn't mean anything.


I don't accept the "fact" since you have yet to sufficiently demonstrate it. I don't accept any real position with regards to Yemeni culture as I am, frankly, uninformed on the subject, but if you wish to demonstrate that there is no such abusive culture in Yemen it will take something a lot more complicated than a single table. We're talking about deep-rooted historical, socio-politicial and (in some cases, maybe) religious issues and how they can inform or influence a societies perception of certain practices that much of the rest of the world condemns as barbaric. You cannot merely produce some statistics and immediately claim the market on facts in this debate.

Exactly. When efforts to legislate a reasonable age limit on marriages are stymied by political leaders for religious reasons, it's more than reasonable to conclude that culture has an unusually permissive attitude about raping little girls.

If a politician in any Western country ever suggested it was noble and righteous to have sex with eight or ten year old girls, that would be the end of their career. Immediately.

In Yemen, the pedophile lobby is apparently powerful enough to have real influence on the relevant legislation, and not lose their jobs or status for advocating the rape of little girls.

Therefore we can conclude that, at least in comparison to the West, Yemen has a culture that is quite tolerant of grown men raping little girls and calling it righteous and noble.

 

[Alceste]

14 percent of girls in Yemen are married before the age of 15, and 52 percent before 18, citing Yemeni and 2006 data from the UN, Human Rights Watch said on Wednesday last week.

Yemen child death sparks debate over marriage age - Taipei Times

Not that I agree with your premise, but there's your majority.

 

[Alceste]

How can you prove your libelous accusations? How in the world are these politicians advocating the rape of young, innocent girls? And, quite tolerant? How?

EDIT: Are you using the phrase "Pedophile Lobby" synonymously with Muslim Yemenite politicians?

I am referring to every adult who lobbies for the legal right to buy and rape children as the pedophile lobby, regardless of their "reasoning". In Yemen, the pedophile lobby happens to be comprised entirely of Islamic men who think their religion gives them the right to have sex with eight and ten year old girls. No doubt the pedophiles in every country present an argument that is consistent with whatever their background happens to be.

For example, the pedophile lobby in the US is called NAMBLA and bases their arguments on libertarian political philosophy rather than religion. But they have no power or influence. They're a joke, because western culture is not tolerant of raping children. You will never see a card carrying NAMBLA member in a position of power or authority.

 

[Poeticus]

Then, I stand corrected and recant my view that Yemen is not a child-marriage hot spot. According to the article you provided, it is a child-marriage hot-spot.

But, if you can be kind as to provide another article that reiterates the same concerns that of Taipei Times? I would greatly be obliged.

EDIT: Never mind, I found another that reiterates the concern that child-brides in Yemen are a frequent occurrence, especially in the rural areas:

The Fight to Ban Child Marriage in Yemen · Global Voices

 

[Poeticus]

That's a nonsense argument. The prevalence of a certain practice has nothing to do with the attitude towards it or the culture's permissiveness of it. It's not about numbers, it's about attitudes. The table says absolutely nothing on that issue whatsoever.


Then do it with good evidence. Showing that child marriage is more common in other countries doesn't mean anything.


I don't accept the "fact" since you have yet to sufficiently demonstrate it. I don't accept any real position with regards to Yemeni culture as I am, frankly, uninformed on the subject, but if you wish to demonstrate that there is no such abusive culture in Yemen it will take something a lot more complicated than a single table. We're talking about deep-rooted historical, socio-politicial and (in some cases, maybe) religious issues and how they can inform or influence a societies perception of certain practices that much of the rest of the world condemns as barbaric. You cannot merely produce some statistics and immediately claim the market on facts in this debate.

I stand corrected. Numerous articles show that more than 50% of Yemen engages in child marriage. Therefore, IMHO, it definitely counts as a hot-spot.

 

[Assad91]

I do not think my not seeing something in another thread is considered being blind or dumb. It is usually considered normal. As for this thread I did not notice an answer given to my question so rinse and repeat.

Yeah, you didn't see it continously explained in the other thread. Anyway, here
[youtube]HXCvnposB1k[/youtube]
Did the Prophet (sawa) marry Aisha at 6 years of age? - YouTube

Let me assume as you state that somewhere on some thread you or some unnamed Muslim said Muhammad did not Marry Aisha when she was a child. Now that I have had to assume it, can you explain why that is the case and why most Muslim's believe she was less than ten years old?

The truth is that when you study the Sunni books of history and hadith, you find that there is no conclusive or clear proof or evidence that she was 6 or 9 when she got married; on the contrary, a range of possible ages is offered when you actually go beyond the myths, gossip and hearsay and actually examine the history. Here are ten reasons to reject the myth of the marriage to a 6 year old.
Several books of hadith report that Aisha was married to the Prophet at age 6 and her marriage was not consumated until age 9. Most of quotes on this have come from one man, Hashim bin Urwah, who was the last narrator of this chain. However, he did not narrate this information when he was a famous teacher in Madina, but only after he moved to Iraq in his seventies. By that stage, even his own student, Malik ibn Anas had said that his narrations should be rejected as unreliable and suspect.
According to hadith in Sahih Bukhari and Muslim, Aisha is said to have joined Muhammad on the raid that culminated in the Battle of Badr, in 624 CE. However, because no one below the age of fifteen was allowed to accompany raiding parties, Aisha should have been at least fifteen in 624 CE and thus at least thirteen when she was married following the Hijra in 622 CE.
Ibn Hisham’s commentary on Ibn Ishaq’s Sirat Rashul Allah, the earliest surviving biography of Muhammad, records Aisha as having converted to Islam before Umar ibn al-Khattab, during the first few years of Islam around 610 CE. In order to accept Islam she must have been walking and talking, hence at least three years of age, which would make her at least fifteen in 622 CE.
Tabari reports that Abu Bakr wished to spare Aisha the discomforts of a journey to Ethiopia soon after 615 CE, and tried to bring forward her marriage to Mut`am’s son. Mut`am refused because Abu Bakr had converted to Islam, but if Aisha was already of marriageable age in 615 CE, she must have been way older than nine in 622 CE.
Tabari also reports that Abu Bakr’s four children were all born during the Jahiliyyah, the pre Islamic period, which could be said to have ended in 610 CE, making Aisha at least twelve in 622 CE.
According to Ibn Hajar, Fatima was five years older than Aisha. Fatima is reported to have been born when Muhammad was thirty-five years old, meaning Aisha was born when he was forty years old, and thus twelve when Muhammad married at fifty-two.
According to the generally accepted tradition, Aisha was born about eight years before Hijrah. However, according to another narrative in Bukhari (Kitaab al-Tafseer) Aisha is reported to have said that at the time Surah Al-Qamar, the 54th chapter of the Qur’an , was revealed, “I was a young girl, a jariya”. The 54th Surah of the Qur’an was revealed nine years before Hijrah. According to this tradition, Aisha had not only been born before the revelation of the referred Surah, but was actually a young girl, not even only an infant at that time. So if this age, of jariya, is assumed to be 7 to 14 years then her age at the time of marriage would be 14 to 21.
A famous Sunni imam, Ahmad ibn Hanbal, reports in his Musnad, that after the death of Khadijah, "Khaulah came to the Holy Prophet and advised him to marry again. She had two propositions for the Prophet: Either Muhammad could marry a virgin (bikr), or he could go for woman who had already been married (thayyib)". Khaulah named Aisha for a virgin (bikr). It is common knowledge that the term bikr in the Arabic language refers to a well formed lady and not to a 9 year old, playful, immature girl. If she were nine, the word used by Khaulah would have been jariyah and not bikr.
According to many Ahadith in Bukhari, it is believed Aisha participated in the battle of Badr and Uhud. Also in Bukhari (Kitabu’l-maghazi) Ibn `Umar states that the "Prophet did not permit me to participate in Uhud, as at that time, I was 14 years old." But on the day of Khandaq, when I was 15 years old, the Prophet permitted my participation. So if it was not allowed to participate in Uhud for people younger than 15, then Aisha would be at least 15 in those battles, making her age at least 13 to 14 at the time of marriage.
According to almost all the historians, Asma the elder sister of Aisha, was ten years older than Aisha. It is reported that Asma died in the 73rd year after migration of Muhammad when she was 100 years old. Now, obviously if Asma was 100 years old in the 73rd year after Migration to Medina, she should have been 27 or 28 years old at the time of migration. If Asma was 27 or 28 years old at the time of hijrah, Aisha should have been 17 or 18 years old at that time. Thus, Aisha – if she got married in the first or second year after the Hijrah, as is commonly reported – was between 18 to 20 years old at the time of her marriage.
So in conclusion, we are doing our Holy Prophet a great disservice. We should be defending the honour, character and reputation of our Holy Prophet and reject these claims that he married a 6 year old child, whether they appear in non-Muslim or Muslim books. The evidence is just not there


The Truth About Shias: Myths about the Holy Prophet - Part 2: Marriage to Bibi Aisha

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/3423947-post740.html

As for why most muslims believe different, I ask for actual proof of it.

It is far easier with Islam than most because it is an Earthly political kingdom unlike Christianity whose kingdom is not of this world.

No it isn't. And I question your honesty as most orthodox christians believe that Jesus will rule the earth.

 

[nash8]

When we are speaking of an event very similar to what the "prophet" of Islam himself did it is irrational to separate the event from the faith. Especially since it is only one of millions of actions this vile similar to those the "prophet" himself practiced and encouraged.

No sorry, nowhere in the Quran does it say Mohommad practiced it, nor supported it. That would be called a Hadith, which are stories written by men about the Prophet. According to the Quran itself, you are only supposed to follow the Quran, following anything else besides the Quran makes you a disbeliever.

The Koran vs. Sharia at a glance

number 4

Surat Al-Ma'idah - The Noble Qur'an - ?????? ??????

Verse 44, Allah revealed the Quran to Momhammed, and only the Quran. Hadith is almost unanimously excepted by the Muslim community to be written by men, and not revealed by Allah.

However your Holy book directly mentions taking women children from conquered tribes. But don't worry it's only the virgin little girls. Oh yeah and it also says to kill all the "little ones" that are males. So we have pedophilia and child killing within one section of 18 verses.

What the Bible says about pedophilia

I must be missing something. Muhammad's involvement with a minor (sexual and otherwise) is a fact conceded by virtually everyone.

Lol, I didn't know people like you still existed. I guess natural selection doesn't hold any merit.

That does not apply here (once again I am only using Islamic sources) and not every story inconvenient for Islam is from stupid scholars and biased people. If you realized how ridiculous calling anything that does not fit your narrative looks to everyone that is not committed to it you might adopt new tactics provided there are any others. Nothing I said here is not conceded by and large by Muslims.

Do you realize how ridicuous your views look to everyone?

I am very surprised by this. I have never talked to a Muslim did not grant that Muhammad married a very young girl without question. It is usually followed by excuses like tribal bonds, what everyone did at that time, what age was appropriate in that culture, or her parents being willing. What is it you think is the truth concerning Aisha and Muhammad?

Considering the level of ignorance of your posts, I highly doubt that you've talked to many Muslims.

I doubt it.

Not after the same question has been unanswered the last 999 times it was asked.

What question has been unanswered?

Jewish. I hope to goodness this is not going down the what does race mean path. Race, species, group, nation, culture, take your pick.

Wrong, specific terrorist groups that claim association with Islam have denied the right of Israel to exist, not the right to life of the Jewish people. And even beyond that, Turkey has ever threatened Israels existence, nor lives of Jewish people, and that is a majority Muslim country.

It's no wonder why people think have the view of Christianity that they do.

 

[Assad91]

BTW Robin, if you haven't caught on, Nash8 here has higlighted a few postts of yours that show you think all muslims are pedophile demons

 

[nash8]

BTW Robin, if you haven't caught on, Nash8 here has higlighted a few postts of yours that show you think all muslims are pedophile demons

I thinks shes more reffering to the direct personal attack on a person, or attack on a religion that would be against forum rules. Intense Implication is not covered under those same rules.

 

[nash8]

And I would just like to add that in this thread I have come to gain a much higher respect for the religion of Islam. I hate it had to be in a thread that started this way, but I have learned a lot, and this thread has really opened my eyes to how people associate religions as the fundamental cause of a particular problem, rather than hold the individuals and/or groups of individuals responsible for their actions.

If it kinda looks like a duck, but it doesn't walk like a duck, or talk like a duck, it's probably a Platypus.

 

[nameless]

The people that obey maybe?

how does that logic work? just curious..

Yet again, post some scriptural verses.

i am sure there are many, but i was just responding to you, your post is quoted below
"I can say that I am a Christian and that slaying my enemies is religious for me according to the Bible."

And my answer to your question was that your youtube video was B.S. Does it say anything about the relative poverty level of Islam vs. Hindu castes.

Muslims are comparitively rich compared to other people, most of them work in middle-east and does huge bank-deposits
Malappuram - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Or does it state the comparison of populations between the two. If there are 20 million Muslims, and 1 million hindu backwards castes, it kinda skews the results no?

About their population
Malappuram - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The Hindu : Kerala News : Increase in Muslim population in the State

You, no noone living today, have any idea what the Prophet practised.

thats what many muslims believe, its no secret that lots of muslims believe muhammad married aisha when she was tiny, and it was a perfect thing to do as muhammad was a perfect human being.

Lol you hate quoting scripture that actually support your opinion, but you have no problem citing websites where other people state opinions that agree with your opinion.

you are wrong, its not my opinion, it is muslims opinion, i just quoted them here.

All of those "verses of scripture" are called Hadiths, and they are written by religious leaders after the Mohammeds life, saying their "opinions" on Mohammed's life. They are not religous scripture.

stop pretending to be a scholar, are you a muslim? who are you to decide that? its upto the muslims to decide which all scriptures to be trusted.

You said that Islamic scripture promotes pedophilia, it does not until you can cite a verse in the Quran that inexplicably says so.

again, why not hadiths?
btw, stop putting words into my my mouth, when did i ever say the term 'pedophilia'?

Again, cite some scripture where it says so. Hadiths don't count because they are not scripture, and stating that child marriage happened during that time the Quran was written is not acceptable either. I could use the same argument to say that every religion in the world supports child marriage.

same B.S again, you are not a muslim, you have no authority to decide what scriptures muslims should rely on.

 

[Satnaam]

Child marriage is not what a 'few' (muslim) individuals do but what their role model, Muhammad did. He set the example by marrying a girl who was yet playing with dolls. Nash8, you should read up on that.

 

[Reverend Rick]

So God's definition of what is right and wrong concerning rape has changed?

No, mans definition has changed. While I don't condone child adult marriages, I see a big difference between children fornicating and a girl who stands before God and promises to love honor and obey her older husband. We let children decide to get saved at an early age. If a 12 year old can make a spiritual decision why do they lack the ability to get married? Young marriage is wrong, but a willful participant in a marriage is not rape, but obviously painful deadly sex were the girl died would be rape. Yes, you can rape your wife.

Something wrong today was not right 10,000 years ago. Circumstances do change what is considered right or wrong but time is usually not among them. I have had the Yemini man in my mind but I think you are talking about Muhammad. You actually think Muhammad was a good man?

I think I should ask you the same question about Paul or should I say Saul. Many Christians worship his words over what Jesus said.

Paul, almost tried to be Jesus himself if you read Acts objectively. Try reading the Bible and remove what Paul and Luke wrote some time. The message changes big time.

Did God send Mohammad to set things right after Pauls perversion of Abrahamic faith?

I am really not sure, I was not there and I am not a Muslim, but one thing I know, they don't eat pork, (do you really think God approves of that?), they pray every few hours, (how often do most Christians pray when they are deluded into thinking the law means nothing and grace is everything), they don't drink, cuss, smoke, get tattoos, have rampant divorce rates like most Christians in churches who have been married several times and act all holy.

So yes, I think Muhammad has lead a great nation of 2 billion people as promised by God. These folks answer to God the father. Why should we not pray to the father any more?

Summary;

1. Muhammad IMO was a very bad man and a terrible excuse for a prophet.
2. Islam is a false and negative religion IMO.
3. Most Muslims are descent people but a huge number are not and the ones that are, are good in spite of the faith.
4. I can call something wrong without having to have everyone in my entire nation be perfect.

I will no comment on this, BUT

5. Isaac's covenant was greater that Ismael's.

Why do you believe that? Show me in the Bible were all of God's promises are not perfect.

 

[Assad91]

Child marriage is not what a 'few' (muslim) individuals do but what their role model, Muhammad did. He set the example by marrying a girl who was yet playing with dolls. Nash8, you should read up on that.

Like a broken record, this is what, like the third time you just pop out of no where to insult the Prophet and then leave?

 

[FearGod]

Child marriage is not what a 'few' (muslim) individuals do but what their role model, Muhammad did. He set the example by marrying a girl who was yet playing with dolls. Nash8, you should read up on that.

What a fiddling conclusion.

Did South American take him as their Model.
i advice you to read and comprehend much better.

You have to know one important point that most of the marriage in Yemen were by force and due to poverty and i believe parents doing such awful acts are atheists according to Islam.

Child marriage is common in Latin America and the Caribbean island nations. About 29% of girls are married before age 18.[111] The child marriage incidence rates varies between the countries, with Dominican Republic, Honduras, Brazil, Guatemala, Nicaragua, Haiti and Ecuador reporting some of the highest rates in the Americas.[112] Bolivia and Guyana have shown the sharpest decline in child marriage rates in recent times.[113] Poverty and lack of laws mandating minimum age for marriage have been cited as reasons of child marriage in Latin America.[114][115]

Reference: Child marriage - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[1robin]

BTW Robin, if you haven't caught on, Nash8 here has higlighted a few postts of yours that show you think all muslims are pedophile demons

I looked at his post, I looked at my past posts. Neither the word demons nor pedophile was ever used by me unless I was responding to your use of them. Since it is impossible to call people demons and pedophiles without using the words you are technically perfectly wrong. Now lets see if you have any non-technical reason for making this absurd comment. Take every human who ever existed. I am greater in knowledge concerning what I think that them all put together. I know for a fact that I have never thought, said, or even considered all Muslims anything whatsoever not too mention something as rare as pedophilia and demonic possession. You are 100% wrong and probably 100% incapable of ever admitting it. You will never find a statement I have ever made that proves what you claim. There was not one in what Nash 8 posted, you have never posted one, because there are none.


I will not acknowledge the repetition of this absurd lie any longer. I will look into your claims concerning Aisha but this ridiculous subject is closed.

 

[Assad91]

I looked at his post, I looked at my past posts. Neither the word demons nor pedophile was ever used by me unless I was responding to your use of them

You didn't use the words themselves.

But its what you implied. And if you can't see how one would come to that conclusion with your insistence that all Muslims agree the Prophet (sawa) did such an act (astigfurllah), and that we follow him as the infallible, perfect man, then you have some problems.