Yemeni child bride dies after internal bleeding on marriage night

[Aquitaine]

That isn't possible even to think of it hypothetically.

The prophet born in a land where girls were available as slaves,girls of all ages were sold as goods and owned by men for the whole life.

Girls were buried alive once born.

The prophet was honest and of good morals which made many of his friends to believe him specially his close friend Abu Baker(father of Aisha) who was in a trip when he heard that his close friend Mohammed received a message from God via the angel Gabriel.

Abu Baker said "Mohammed never lies" and when Mohammed started to warn his people he said "did you ever know me as a liar,believe me im telling but the truth"

He lived a simple and a humble life even though he was rich and his wife at th time was the richest woman in mecca and the pagan leaders were worried that people may believe Mohammed and his uncle asked him to stop warning people and his answer was "I swear by the name of God, O Uncle!, that if they place the sun in my right-hand and the moon in my left-hand in return for giving up this matter (calling people to Islam), I will never desist until either God makes it triumph or I perish defending it"

[youtube]SLplKvhEKok[/youtube]
The Prophet Mohammad Decision - YouTube

Of course it is possible to think of it - it's a hypothetical question. :yes:

The reason I am asking is because there is a very real possibility that the child marriage hadiths are in-fact genuine. So I am just wondering, if they were revealed to be historically accurate, what would be your opinion on the situation?

 

[Reverend Rick]

HOnestly it should all just be 18 to me. Consent, Alcohol, Military...or 21. All these are things that can adversely affect a persons life. They should be left to an age where responsibility as an adult can be handed out properly.

Oh I agree totally, but in real life I have seen 17 year old girls who were more mature both physically and mentally than 20 year old men.

Think about the guy who is 17 having sex with an under aged girl say 15 who starts having sex at 11:59 P.M. and turns 18 at midnight.

This is why I say age difference is another issue to be discussed.

What I am focused on is how old a girl/woman should be to give consent for sex?

I want her to be left alone by all males until she is old enough physically and mentally to give consent.

 

[illykitty]

But is the brain's frontal lobes not fully "connected" until mid-twenties? (Heh I'm almost there!) It's an area that weighs consequences and gives you insight, so although a teen, for example, can access it, it's not as fast nor effective.

So is an age closer to mid-twenties more appropriate or should we give responsibilities to younger people?

With this in mind... There's no way an 8 years old can take such huge responsibility. :no:

 

[Father Heathen]

I disagree, I don't think young girls should be having sex with anyone.

Um, I never made a statement regarding whether or not they should or shouldn't be. I'm saying that there is a very huge and obvious difference between a 13 year old having sex with another 13 year old, and a 13 year old having sex with a 43 year old. Do you honestly not think that the levels of naivity, maturity, responsibility, innocence, ignorance, position of power, etc. don't make a difference between partners? It's one thing when you have dumb kids experimenting with each other. It's entirely another when you have an older adult who is manipulating, coercing, and taking advantage of a dumb kid.

 

[FearGod]

Um, I never made a statement regarding whether or not they should or shouldn't be. I'm saying that there is a very huge and obvious difference between a 13 year old having sex with another 13 year old, and a 13 year old having sex with a 43 year old. Do you honestly not think that the levels of naivity, maturity, responsibility, innocence, ignorance, position of power, etc. don't make a difference between partners? It's one thing when you have dumb kids experimenting with each other. It's entirely another when you have an older adult who is manipulating, coercing, and taking advantage of a dumb kid.

Leaving them doing wrong and evil things in the hide just because they are kids,those kids will grow up and will keep on doing that stuff.

i found it dangerous how you make an excuse for kids to have sex,because they are ignorants,not similar to adults.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

It's why education and resolve are the answers. We need to empower our girls. Not ignore them to their own devices, nor protect their sensibilities and their "honor" and purity in an archaic patriarchal construct.

My proposal is to continue to educate on contraception, STDs, and the risks of underage pregnancy in the way we in our culture (at the very least) emphasize the risks of not wearing your seatbelt while taking drivers education.

I thought I'd stated stuff like this a few times already, but I'll keep saying it. The most successful rates when it comes to infant mortality, to underage maternal mortality, and health complications due to teenaged pregnancy come from cultures and nations that have comprehensive sex education, easy and safe access to family planning services, and ensure equal rights and protections for women.

The question comes down to...what should be protected more? Girls lives? Or tradition? The facts suggest that many traditions put girls lives and health in danger. Let's not set them aside, and let's not insist on placing their purity under protection of an older man, but let's collectively educate and empower girls on their reproductive rights and health care.

When a community ensures everybody has received a comprehensive sex education, has easy and safe access to family planning services, and equal rights and protections for women, not only does the health and livelihood of girls and women improve, but abortion rates are lower. Empower women to decide when they can gestate and give birth to children, and we won't have things happen like the 11-year old girl dying from internal bleeding due to a severely traumatic marriage consummation with an adult male.

It is clear she wasn't empowered, nor knowledgeable, nor given access to proper reproductive health care and education. She was a product of a global phenomenon that sees female fertility as a sacred right granted solely to patriarchal tradition. Her reproductive system was not hers to own and to dictate. It was seen as the property of her husband.

THIS is what needs to stop. And it's through education and empowering women and girls.

 

[Father Heathen]

Leaving them doing wrong and evil things in the hide just because they are kids,

Kids having sex is unhealthy and irresponsible, but it's not "evil". Let's shed the superstitious stone age mentality toward sex, shall we? I didn't say it was alright. I'm just saying that it's not comparable to an adult having sex with a child. If anything is "evil", it's that.

those kids will grow up and will keep on doing that stuff.

Keep doing what? Having sex? Like most healthy adults?

i found it dangerous how you make an excuse for kids to have sex,because they are ignorants,not similar to adults.

Like I've already said, I wasn't excusing anything.

 

[1robin]

No, I did not suggest that.

I did not think so but do not see how there is any other meaning that can be drawn from what you did say. Maybe restate what you are saying and clarify a bit.

Are you saying a man who has been a faithful husband for 47 years is a bad person?

Yes, Christianity suggests we are all bad. However on a human standard if this was all that was known about him then no. I do not see the relevance however. What man?

I think calling him a rapist by todays standard for what happened that long ago is unjust.

So God's definition of what is right and wrong concerning rape has changed?

I also think applying our current standards to a person who lived 1400 years ago is a low shot. We should show more respect than that.

Something wrong today was not right 10,000 years ago. Circumstances do change what is considered right or wrong but time is usually not among them. I have had the Yemini man in my mind but I think you are talking about Muhammad. You actually think Muhammad was a good man?

I further believe that many folks ignore the efforts of moderate Muslims to raise the age of marriage.

I don't. I am judging a faith and it's founder not every single member of it.

Why would we lump 2 billion people into one nice package so we can condemn them?

I did not condemn all Muslims, why are you suggesting I did?

Jesus said for us to love our neighbor. I don't remember an exception for Muslims.

I never said I do not love them. Why are you saying I did? I hate the sin the religion produces but not necessarily it's practitioners.

Was God's promise to Haggar any less real than God's promise to Abraham?

Yes it absolutely was. It also included predictions about a wild *** of a race that would trouble its neighbors for countless generations.

Summary;

1. Muhammad IMO was a very bad man and a terrible excuse for a prophet.
2. Islam is a false and negative religion IMO.
3. Most Muslims are descent people but a huge number are not and the ones that are, are good in spite of the faith.
4. I can call something wrong without having to have everyone in my entire nation be perfect.
5. Isaac's covenant was greater that Ismael's.

 

[Father Heathen]

So God's definition of what is right and wrong concerning rape has changed?

IF by "god" you mean the biblical portrayal, Exodus gives detailed instructions on how to sell owns own daughter into sexual slavery. The bible even states that a victim of rape must be forced to marry her assailant. It also states that the women of an enemy nation can be taken as spoils of war.

So if you wish to speak out against rape, misogyny, subjugation, etc. you might want to hide that bible beneath the rug.

 

[1robin]

IF by "god" you mean the biblical portrayal, Exodus gives detailed instructions on how to sell owns own daughter into sexual slavery.

Verse please.

If you wish to argue against rape, misogyny, subjugation, etc. you might want to hide that bible beneath the rug.

So any historical event a book records the author of that book is in favor of it?

 

[Alceste]

Thank you for this well thought out post. You are the first person who made a proposal for making things better.

Lets discuss persuading people. We can't start out by insulting them and their prophet (PBUH).

When we do this, that is the end of the dialog.

We have to let go of the past before we can enter the future.

We cannot apply todays standards to yesterday but we can try to move forward.

If the goal is improvement, we have to look forward not backward.

Just for a moment in time, consider how women and blacks were treated in our own country. Well at least your neighbor to the south anyway.

Lastly, it took a civil war to solve many of our problems and even after the war, over another century passed and it is debatable that we still have arrived.

I think you go very far astray the minute you start worrying about the feelings of men who think it's righteous and noble to rape little girls. Who cares if they're insulted? The particular feeling I'm most keen to inspire is a deep sense of shame, because raping little girls is always evil and I'm sure they know that, deep down inside. But I'll take indignance if that's all that's on offer.

 

[Father Heathen]

Verse please.

Exodus 21 7-11

Deuteronomy 22:28-29

Deuteronomy 21:10-14

A rather repulsive tome, yes?

So any historical event a book records the author of that book is in favor of it?

It is if the bible explicitly instructs it.

 

[outhouse]

i found it dangerous how you make an excuse for kids to have sex,because they are ignorants,not similar to adults.

I found it dangerous how you do not see the difference between children/children and adults/children

 

[Father Heathen]

I think you go very far astray the minute you start worrying about the feelings of men who think it's righteous and noble to rape little girls. Who cares if they're insulted? The particular feeling I'm most keen to inspire is a deep sense of shame, because raping little girls is always evil and I'm sure they know that, deep down inside. But I'll take indignance if that's all that's on offer.

Exactly. I don't understand where the notion came from that we should feel obligated to respect these animals and their savagery just because such abhorrent actions are considered religious/cultural practices. I strongly disagree with the suggestion that all cultures and religions are entitled to respect, regardless of ethics or integrity.

 

[1robin]

Exodus 21 7-11

This has nothing to do with sexual slavery and it is not promoting anything. This concerns servitude and I have written exhaustively on it here. For now I will just give a few pertinent facts but the in depth posts on it can easily be found.

1. The laws concerning servitude in the Bible are the most benevolent known to exist in the ANE by far.
2. God tolerated slavery just as he tolerated divorce, because of the sin of man.
3. Almost all servitude was voluntary and existed as a form of welfare in Israel. No record known shows chattel slavery existed in Israel. It was mostly debt servitude and even they had no other slave on Earth had. They could run away at any time, they could not be returned, and unlike even the Hebrews could settle anywhere.
4. The other major case was prisoners of war. Where other nations habitually turned starving hordes of soldiers loose of the country side, sold them into true chattel slavery the Hebrews indentured them for life but they had property rights and had laws that protected them even in servitude.

We look through the prism of 19th century slavery and see what we wish to see. God never instituted slavery. He found it practiced and modified it to be the most benevolent form of servitude known at the time. It was a form of welfare, it was not optimal, but it was the best you could do with a species so wayward.

Deuteronomy 22:28-29

A verse designed to punish rape is not an example of what you claimed. I think you do not realize God was not setting his own kingdom up, he was taking a kingdom of man and changing it as much as our nature would allow to make it more orderly and benevolent. If God liked slavery and rape why when he does institute his own kingdom are they abolished permanently. I think you confuse permission with approval.

Deuteronomy 21:10-14

See number one. All other nations simply let these people die. Would you have preferred that. They didn't.

A rather repulsive tome, yes?

There is much in the OT I do not like. However I am not God trying to cause change in a species that resists it like the plague. I did not inherit a world that contains the greatest evil imaginable and had to attempt to gradually institute reform at a pace they could accept. At best you have shown things in Israel were less than optimal. Is it you belief they should have been.

It is if the bible explicitly instructs it.

Anything about God that starts with as if, is probably not worth saying. It is not as if, it is God trying to introduce as much benevolence into a malevolent race as possible. If you could find any of these things present where God's will is the only component in the equation then you might have a good argument but every description of heaven has no servitude, no prisoners of war, no sin of any kind. Any equation that included us and God will reflect the imperfection of our nature. The only way it would not have is if God made automations and thereby defeated his entire purpose for the universe. If you will look into optimality argumentation concerning God they go into much greater detail than I have.

 

[farouk]

I did not think so but do not see how there is any other meaning that can be drawn from what you did say. Maybe restate what you are saying and clarify a bit.

Yes, Christianity suggests we are all bad. However on a human standard if this was all that was known about him then no. I do not see the relevance however. What man?


So God's definition of what is right and wrong concerning rape has changed?

Something wrong today was not right 10,000 years ago. Circumstances do change what is considered right or wrong but time is usually not among them. I have had the Yemini man in my mind but I think you are talking about Muhammad. You actually think Muhammad was a good man?


I don't. I am judging a faith and it's founder not every single member of it.

I did not condemn all Muslims, why are you suggesting I did?

I never said I do not love them. Why are you saying I did? I hate the sin the religion produces but not necessarily it's practitioners.

Yes it absolutely was. It also included predictions about a wild *** of a race that would trouble its neighbors for countless generations.

Summary;

1. Muhammad IMO was a very bad man and a terrible excuse for a prophet.
2. Islam is a false and negative religion IMO.
3. Most Muslims are descent people but a huge number are not and the ones that are, are good in spite of the faith.
4. I can call something wrong without having to have everyone in my entire nation be perfect.
5. Isaac's covenant was greater that Ismael's.

Peace
1robin
Why do you show so much hate for Muhammad(PBBUH)?
Hope you did not lose a limb in Iraq or afghanistan.
In Genesis we read
"20 And as for Ishmael, I have heard you: I will surely bless him; I will make him fruitful and will greatly increase his numbers. He will be the father of twelve rulers, and I will make him into a great nation."

God kept his promise according to your bible so why hate Ishmael's progeny.
By the way there is something you should read.A book written by Michael Hart called
"A Ranking of the Most Influential Persons in History".
Read more about it here.
The 100: A Ranking of the Most Influential Persons in History - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Whats more you show a lot of hate for Islam which is the fastest growing religion on earth.Everyday there are new reverts knocking at our door.
Just for my record why so much hatred 1robin?
Peace
Farouk

 

[1robin]

Exactly. I don't understand where the notion came from that we should feel obligated to respect these animals and their savagery just because such abhorrent actions are considered religious/cultural practices. I strongly disagree with the suggestion that all cultures and religions are entitled to respect, regardless of ethics or integrity.

I agree whole heartedly but putting this into practice is a difficult thing.

 

[FearGod]

Kids having sex is unhealthy and irresponsible, but it's not "evil". Let's shed the superstitious stone age mentality toward sex, shall we? I didn't say it was alright. I'm just saying that it's not comparable to an adult having sex with a child. If anything is "evil", it's that.

in the stone age i guess people's morality were very close to the morality of animals and then they match your thoughts about sex to be for pleasure and not for a honest and Marital relationship,i absolutely disagree with your nonsense

A man or a boy both are panting for that blessed disgusting hole,for me it makes no difference,johnson size for both is fixed.

Keep doing what? Having sex? Like most healthy adults?

So it can be normal that kids to indulge in sexual relationship and to keep on doing what you called healthy practice in adulthood,but i call it adultery and animalic practice and it isn't that far from the act of people that lived in the stone ages.

Due to your sore lack of reading comprehension, I strongly suggest that you bow out of the thread. Besides, I suspect that the subject matter is well above your mental prowess, anyway. Like I've already said, I wasn't excusing anything.

i know you wish if i'll bow out from this thread because i am causing to you a hypertension

i imagine how you look while saying " bow out from this thread"

 

[1robin]

Kids having sex is unhealthy and irresponsible, but it's not "evil". Let's shed the superstitious stone age mentality toward sex, shall we? I didn't say it was alright. I'm just saying that it's not comparable to an adult having sex with a child. If anything is "evil", it's that.

Is anything evil or morally correct without God. If you can have evil without a law and lawgiver to say which is which (something that is impossible) then why is kids having sex not evil?

Keep doing what? Having sex? Like most healthy adults?

Sex outside marriage has worked out so well in tearing families apart and creating kids who do not even know who their parents are, defies the "healthy" designation.

Due to your sore lack of reading comprehension, I strongly suggest that you bow out of the thread. Besides, I suspect that the subject matter is well above your mental prowess, anyway. Like I've already said, I wasn't excusing anything.

I do not agree with almost anything fear God says but suggesting he not debate is a little too much and not appropriate but never fear, I never report anyone for anything unlike many others.

 

[FearGod]

I found it dangerous how you do not see the difference between children/children and adults/children

Both panting for the blessed hole,old adult or young adult.

According to the law

19 years with 13 is adult with a kid
17 years with 13 is a kid with a kid