Yet more things to ignore

[Shadow Wolf]

There is much, much, more but you see where I am coming from.

No, I actually don't. Our own police kill more people here than Muslim extremists. We have markets selling food that are loaded with toxic chemicals that are wrecking our health. We have light sentences for people who are posing a danger such as drunk drivers and rapists. We point the finger at Islam, but we don't even consider that for over a century the Islamic lands have been hot spots for colonialism and proxy wars (but we certainly cheer on the Founding Fathers for declaring war on our former colonial overlords). You're more likely to be killed by bad medications that were understudied and pushed through or a faulty car design that the manufacturer knew about than a Muslim extremist. There have been over 300 people murdered in Chicago already this year, and about 44 people murdered every day in the United States. That's almost the death toll of the Orlando shooting every day. And you're worried about Muslims?

 

[YmirGF]

As I have reiterated many times before in similar discussions, armed violence is not the only manifestation of extremism. In the Muslim world, as I have also mentioned many times before, there is widely supported (by most Muslims, at least in the Arab world) homophobia, sexism, and support for punishments like stoning and lashing, among other things. It is at the point where millions of Muslims believe that homosexual sex is punishable by death and premarital sex is punishable by lashing.

That's far from what I would call peaceful. Yes, the "West" has a lot of blood on its hands, but I think that most Muslim-majority countries are living their Dark Ages right now and are in need of an Enlightenment era of their own to get past these times of cultural regression.

And pretending we should be concerned about a lone individuals while the report says outright "Security services say the lone wolf terrorist attack is one of the most difficult to detect and preempt." I'm sure the family and friends of the victums at the Pulse will be greatly relieved to hear of this so-called "report". Who knows maybe the killer got a look at the report early and decided to try to level the field... along with everything else.

More inconvenient truths for you all to plaster over:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...tack-was-about-revenge-not-isis-a7095476.html

Mateen did it for revenge and because he struggled with his sexuality...but ISIS !

Frankly, I don't think this is worth the time it takes to watch it. I know many, many gay people who struggled with rejection their entire lives and never decided to kill 49 people over it. This rejection angle is cod-swallop.

 

[gnomon]

Wonder? Do Christian groups encourage it's members to strap on a back pack
of explosives and detonate in a crowed market?
Inquiring minds don'cha'know?
I already and know about the Westboro Baptists and the nuts that play with rattlesnakes
to prove faith in "god".

Do you know about the Lord's Resistance Army in the Congo and the Central African Republic?

Or the rise of Christian extremists in the Central Africa Republic involving the beheadings of Muslims. Mass refugees fleeing the state due to Christian violence?

Or the actions of Christian resistance armies in Central Africa utilizing rape as a method of warfare?

 

[Rick O'Shez]

That's far from what I would call peaceful. Yes, the "West" has a lot of blood on its hands, but I think that most Muslim-majority countries are living their Dark Ages right now and are in need of an Enlightenment era of their own to get past these times of cultural regression.

Yes, it's reminiscent of medieval Christianity. Maybe this is a stage that monotheistic faiths have to go through?

 

[YmirGF]

Yes, it's reminiscent of medieval Christianity. Maybe this is a stage that monotheistic faiths have to go through?

The problem is that Islam is not something that can be easily changed. Heck, I doubt many Muslims actually believe anything needs to be changed and likely find the very idea insulting.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Yes, it's reminiscent of medieval Christianity. Maybe this is a stage that monotheistic faiths have to go through?

Very doubtful considering we've really not seen such behaviors from Judaism, and the heavy involvement of outsiders in the Middle East.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

The problem is that Islam is not something that can be easily changed. Heck, I doubt many Muslims actually believe anything needs to be changed and likely find the very idea insulting.

The interesting thing is that you are probably right, but there is much disagreement among the Ummah as to what is considered moral, decent, and permissible within Islam. Even the Gallup poll people point to that shows a certain percentage of Muslims want Sharia law shows they do not agree as to what exactly Sharia entails. And of course there is also the differences among Western, Middle Eastern, and Eastern Muslims that tend to reflect cultural differences.

 

[YmirGF]

The interesting thing is that you are probably right, but there is much disagreement among the Ummah as to what is considered moral, decent, and permissible within Islam. Even the Gallup poll people point to that shows a certain percentage of Muslims want Sharia law shows they do not agree as to what exactly Sharia entails. And of course there is also the differences among Western, Middle Eastern, and Eastern Muslims that tend to reflect cultural differences.

Aside from the inconvenient reality that no one person or no one group speaks for any given sect, let alone the whole ball o' wax that is Islam.

 

[Rival]

Yes, it's reminiscent of medieval Christianity. Maybe this is a stage that monotheistic faiths have to go through?

When was the Zoroastrian dark age, man?

 

[MD]

When was the Zoroastrian dark age, man?

After Alexander.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

Very doubtful considering we've really not seen such behaviors from Judaism, and the heavy involvement of outsiders in the Middle East.

Judaism no, but look at the two main offenders, Christianity and Islam. Look at all the suffering and conflict they have caused over the centuries, this is still going on. Once you claim that you are doing Gods work you can justify pretty much anything, crusades, inquisitions, ethnic cleansing, terrorism.

 

[LuisDantas]

Judaism no, but look at the two main offenders, Christianity and Islam. Look at all the suffering and conflict they have caused over the centuries, this is still going on. Once you claim that you are doing Gods work you can justify pretty much anything, crusades, inquisitions, ethnic cleansing, terrorism.

The two faiths certainly have a lot in common, including that challenge to deal with.

I wouldn't say that is a consequence of monotheism proper, though.

To a significant degree it is caused by the largely self-imposed conflict that arises from attempting to reconcile the claims that:

1. There is exactly one, true, only God.
2. Said God is true and relevant for everyone, including people who don't know of it or don't care for it.
3. One of his roles was the creation of humanity itself, including those who don't know or care for it.
4. He cares a lot about whether people learn of him and feel inclined to worship him.

The first claim probably defines monotheism ("probably" because theism is ultimately very much free-form).

The other claims are increasingly problematic, to the point that it would be fair to call them Abrahamic eccentricities as opposed to traits of monotheism proper.

I strongly suspect that they only survive to this day because Christianity and Islam spend so much of their energies on statements that accuse the other religion of being correct on those specific points, yet terribly wrong on other, more significant ones. We tend to associate the traits of relevance and general agreement, despite a lack of actual correlation.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Judaism no, but look at the two main offenders, Christianity and Islam. Look at all the suffering and conflict they have caused over the centuries, this is still going on. Once you claim that you are doing Gods work you can justify pretty much anything, crusades, inquisitions, ethnic cleansing, terrorism.

And Judaism is the oldest monotheistic religion we know of, and the monotheistic religion that Christianity and Islam come from, and most of the suffering and conflict at the hands of Christians and Muslims are either directed at each other or at the Jews. And I don't think either one would have caused these problems had people not elevated them to the position of political titans.

 

[LuisDantas]

And Judaism is the oldest monotheistic religion we know of, and the monotheistic religion that Christianity and Islam come from, and most of the suffering and conflict at the hands of Christians and Muslims are either directed at each other or at the Jews. And I don't think either one would have caused these problems had people not elevated them to the position of political titans.

Yet, their political significance is to a very large extent a direct result of their frequent willingness to point towards some group of "outsiders" that must be watched against, put in line or simply eradicated outright in order to preserve the "necessary" order.

Human nature loves having an external enemy, even if the rationalization is very fragile.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Yet, their political significance is to a very large extent a direct result of their frequent willingness to point towards some group of "outsiders" that must be watched against, put in line or simply eradicated outright in order to preserve the "necessary" order.

Human nature loves having an external enemy, even if the rationalization is very fragile.

The thing is, if we look at the Bible, and focus just on what Jesus taught, and omit the odd and out of place passages such as Luke 19, and you really just don't get such things. It's why I don't really blame the religion, but those who use it as a means to an end in their lust for power and control. Just look at the Vatican. It's blatantly obvious to anyone who has every actually read the Gospels that such a grandiose display of wealth is not only contradicting to what Jesus taught, but is something that would probably invoke the wrath of the Father over such an abysmal failure and willingness to violate commandments and display themselves as the hypocrites Jesus said to not be like.
I don't know the Quran as well, but I do know that many of the passages of violence that people point at are out of context, laying down strict laws about it in the next verse or two (often applying only to defensive wars), and just are not the generalized permission card to butcher Jews, Christians, and infidels that people like to say it is.

 

[gnomon]

Well this was useless.

Once again an OP argument..........

Once again a thoroughly useless and uninformative tangent.

I'll challenge the OP.

I read the linked articles and found them utterly useless. The second one about Mateen being a repressed homosexual with no influence from Islamist extremists to be simply stupid and uninformative.

The first article solely focusing on Europe meant absolutely nothing to me.

edit: sorry for being blunt but at least let's get the thread back on track. The ball is in your court now. Let's keep it interesting.

 

[jeager106]

No, I actually don't. Our own police kill more people here than Muslim extremists. We have markets selling food that are loaded with toxic chemicals that are wrecking our health. We have light sentences for people who are posing a danger such as drunk drivers and rapists. There have been over 300 people murdered in Chicago already this year, and about 44 people murdered every day in the United States. That's almost the death toll of the Orlando shooting every day. And you're worried about Muslims?

"Our own police kill more........................"
That was an OPINION snatched from your deep dark recesses.
POST FIGURES PLEASE.

On average, there were 96 such incidents among at least 400 police killings each year that were reported to the FBI by local police.

^^^http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/08/14/police-killings-data/14060357/

Without citations your opinions are from your own worldview and highly suspect.

Note police killings are almost ALWAYS self defense.
Do research prior to posing about people engaged in a very difficult and dangerous job.

Officer killed in the line:
On Tuesday, the National Law Enforcement Officers Memorial Fund, a pro-police nonprofit, released its preliminary 2014 report on officer deaths, which listed the total number of fatalities at 126.

Officers killed in the line of duty are victims of homicide, people shot by police are
armed criminals.

About Chicago:
http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-chicago-homicides-20160301-story.html

Now answer WHY Chicago is such a violent city.
Is it guns obtained illegally, or the people that use them illegally?
Arrest the gun and free the actor maybe.
It's easy to blame the object and difficult to render the motivation behind such
violence.
Wanna ban knives, brick, and penises?

 

[YmirGF]

"Our own police kill more........................"
That was an OPINION snatched from your deep dark recesses.
POST FIGURES PLEASE.

On average, there were 96 such incidents among at least 400 police killings each year that were reported to the FBI by local police.

^^^http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/08/14/police-killings-data/14060357/

Without citations your opinions are from your own worldview and highly suspect.

Note police killings are almost ALWAYS self defense.
Do research prior to posing about people engaged in a very difficult and dangerous job.

Officer killed in the line:
On Tuesday, the National Law Enforcement Officers Memorial Fund, a pro-police nonprofit, released its preliminary 2014 report on officer deaths, which listed the total number of fatalities at 126.

Officers killed in the line of duty are victims of homicide, people shot by police are
armed criminals.

About Chicago:
http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-chicago-homicides-20160301-story.html

Now answer WHY Chicago is such a violent city.
Is it guns obtained illegally, or the people that use them illegally?
Arrest the gun and free the actor maybe.
It's easy to blame the object and difficult to render the motivation behind such
violence.
Wanna ban knives, brick, and penises?

Without derailing the thread, Jeager106, the main point about police killing people in the course of doing their job is that in virtually all cases, death could have been easily avoided. When police are aiming a gun at you, it's not a great idea to "stand your ground".

 

[Aquitaine]

We the Muslims did not reach yet the the casualties of WW1 and WW2,or used atomic bomb(Japan),and before it the extermination of the native Indians,and slavery of Africans.

WW1: Ottomans supported Germany and therefore lost, if Ottomans had superior firepower the casualties may have been different.

WW2: Grand Mufti supported Hitler against the Jews. No major muslim empire left, ergo no ability to design, manufacture and use an Atomic bomb: USA got there first.

Extermination of natives: Armenian Genocide commited by Ottomans.

Slavery: African and Barbary Slave Trade established and supported by Ottomans.

We the Muslims did not occupy most of the World and steal it's fortunes,as some Western countries did.

Every major power (muslim or kuffar) has taken territory and stolen resources when given the chance, it was no different with the muslim powers.

Please notice these history crimes/actions are made by agreement (majority) of authority and their people,and may Church in that time.

on contrary our criminal (ISIS or Alqaeda ....etc),are rejected by people and authority, we fought them and fighting them.

In a different thread you recently claimed to make a clear separation between politicians and the people (when I pointed out that westerners protested every major western-led conflict in recent times), though now you appear to be lumping us all together again?

In conclusion what I am trying to say is that muslims are no better (or necessarily worse) than non-muslims: all humans are capable of behaving like beasts.
Non-muslim nations created more carnage during both world wars simply because we had (and still have) better technology and industrial capabilities.

 

[jeager106]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Those who live in glass houses...................