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Yet more things to ignore

Debater Slayer

Vipassana
Staff member
Premium Member
The West had much some responsiblity on Dark Ages.
occupation and support voilence what they called "rebels" for "democraty" (Libya,....etc )....replacing what they called "dictatoric regime" by civil war and terrorists.

The West economy are built through blood/fortunes of Africans and Asian countries,then monoply of science.,which cause the the Dark Ages in third world.

For stone, or lashing, the homosexual, I lived in Algeria(most of Muslim countries too) I never heard about that someone stoned or lashed here,I think the same with Egypt too ?

I don't tell that Muslims are angels, or don't have big responsiblity ,but for Iraq tragedy and Syria and Afghnistan and Libya 'tragedies" the big responsiblity is on West .

I think that while at least a few Western superpowers don't seem to be minding the chaos in Iraq, Syria, Libya, etc., that much, a large part of the chaos is also the responsibility of Middle Eastern people. Let's not forget the Sunni-Shi'a tensions, the passive verbal crusades between many Sunni and Shi'a scholars, and the willingness of many Middle Easterners to support violence against their own compatriots. It's quite unfortunate.

Keep in mind that at no point in this thread have I defended any "Western" countries. I think the U.S., Russia, and a few other global superpowers have caused a lot of destruction and harm in the Middle East. However, that doesn't mean there aren't many Middle Eastern people who also hold part of the responsibility for what has happened over the years.

About stoning, lashing, etc., it is true that most Muslim-majority countries don't implement those punishments, but I think two things are worth considering here:

1) In Egypt, for instance, millions of people voted Islamists into parliament and voted for an Islamist president in free elections. The Islamists were clearly planning to make Shari'a into state law, and many people knew and approved of the idea. If you ask Muslims in a few different Arab countries (as an example) whether they would approve of applying "God's laws" such as what I mentioned—lashing, stoning, etc.—under "correct conditions," do you think most would oppose the idea? I personally don't think so, but maybe our opinions are different here.

2) Even without stoning or lashing, most Muslim-majority countries still persecute LGBT people. I think it is a significantly relevant fact here that the penalty for homosexual sex is death in some Islamic countries. When something like that is embedded into state law, it wouldn't surprise me to see stoning or lashing make their way into state law as well.
 

Debater Slayer

Vipassana
Staff member
Premium Member
Yes, it's reminiscent of medieval Christianity. Maybe this is a stage that monotheistic faiths have to go through?

I don't know if this is limited to monotheistic faiths. I think pretty much all religions are prone to going through this stage at one point or another. Maybe certain religions are more prone to it than others, though.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
This thread is the perfect example of what i'm talking about.

Some of you on here hate Islam and Muslims so much you haven't even realised what this thread is about. Let me explain it to you in a simple way: This was about how the media is eager to highlight an entire race/religion/nationality when the perpetrator is Muslim but willing to look the other way when the perpetrator is white/european/christian/atheist/homosexual etc.
You are mistaken if you think that just because we won't lend prestige to an idea we have failed to notice that it is being presented.

Not a single one of you commenting on here properly raised that issue yet have spent 4 pages discussing how bad Islam apparently is in the middle east, which is not even closet o what this thread was about. Some of you seem to have the intellect of a racist cockroach.
Some propositions are simply not at all convincing.

And that is no excuse to insult others, mind you.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
The thread has been derailed by people who are fueled by hate, not intelligence or education. That was the whole point of me making this, to see if people would actually respond to the points I was making or go off on their own Islamophobic tangent. Guess what happened?
Easy on the venom. If you mean to be taken seriously, choosing a more mature thread title would be a good start.
 

Debater Slayer

Vipassana
Staff member
Premium Member
This thread is the perfect example of what i'm talking about.

Some of you on here hate Islam and Muslims so much you haven't even realised what this thread is about. Let me explain it to you in a simple way: This was about how the media is eager to highlight an entire race/religion/nationality when the perpetrator is Muslim but willing to look the other way when the perpetrator is white/european/christian/atheist/homosexual etc.

First, "hate Islam and Muslims" makes it sound like the two forms of hatred are even remotely on the same level for everyone or that one of them necessarily entails the other. That is simply untrue. Yes, many people "hate" Islam. There are also many people who hate Muslims. Does that mean the two groups necessarily overlap? No, it doesn't. Trying to imply that they necessarily do strikes me as a dangerous form of ambiguity or equivocation. I'm not saying that your intention here was to equivocate, but generally when I see this specific kind of conflation, it is coming from people who do employ equivocation quite noticeably in their arguments.

Second, I do get your point, and my point in response was that pointing out this bias on the part of many media outlets doesn't mean that Islam is as innocent or as peaceful as you seem to be claiming it is. That's like saying that since Israel is criticized so much in the Arab world and many Arab media outlets overlook crimes of Arab countries and focus on Israel, the latter is innocent and peaceful. I don't see how that argument holds much water or validity.

Not a single one of you commenting on here properly raised that issue yet have spent 4 pages discussing how bad Islam apparently is in the middle east, which is not even closet o what this thread was about.

Apologetics doesn't convince or appeal to everyone, as I'm pretty sure you know. You seem upset that the particular type of Islamic apologetics in the OP of this thread failed to convince most people who have posted here so far. I don't know what to tell you other than that you obviously shouldn't expect your arguments to not face criticism when you put them up for debate.
 

Debater Slayer

Vipassana
Staff member
Premium Member
The thread has been derailed by people who are fueled by hate, not intelligence or education. That was the whole point of me making this, to see if people would actually respond to the points I was making or go off on their own Islamophobic tangent. Guess what happened?

I have gradually become convinced that part of the problem that leads to so much misunderstanding and miscommunication in discussions in the media and elsewhere on the subject of Islam and Muslims is the employment of the widely misused term "Islamophobia" to shut down valid criticism of Islam and many Muslims' beliefs and dismiss it as hatred of Muslims.
 

idav

Being
Premium Member
This thread is the perfect example of what i'm talking about.

Some of you on here hate Islam and Muslims so much you haven't even realised what this thread is about. Let me explain it to you in a simple way: This was about how the media is eager to highlight an entire race/religion/nationality when the perpetrator is Muslim but willing to look the other way when the perpetrator is white/european/christian/atheist/homosexual etc.

Not a single one of you commenting on here properly raised that issue yet have spent 4 pages discussing how bad Islam apparently is in the middle east, which is not even closet o what this thread was about. Some of you seem to have the intellect of a racist cockroach.
The thread is about Islam and Muslims. Don't try and assume we have a blind eye to Christians going after abortion doctors and such. I don't see any Christian theocracies to the level of Islamic states and even Israel is largely secular. You would have to ignore the Islamic states that have power and the large amount of oppression they tend to promote even compared to Israel.
 

idav

Being
Premium Member
Vatican City is a theocracy and absolute monarchy. :p
Ok and how oppressive are they in Vatican City compared to an Islamic state or Israel? Does Vatican city currently have any plans to use violence as a means to spreading their theocracy? I almost feel like what has happened in the past with Catholics and religious war has been direct reaction to Islam.
 

Saint Frankenstein

Here for the ride
Premium Member
Ok and how oppressive are they in Vatican City compared to an Islamic state or Israel? Does Vatican city currently have any plans to use violence as a means to spreading their theocracy? I almost feel like what has happened in the past with Catholics and religious war has been direct reaction to Islam.
I was trying to lighten up this hateful, negative thread. Sheesh.

And, no - the religious wars in Europe were mostly between different factions of Christians and included genocide. Spain was actually better off under the Muslims.
 

Debater Slayer

Vipassana
Staff member
Premium Member
I was trying to lighten up this hateful, negative thread. Sheesh.

And, no - the religious wars in Europe were mostly between different factions of Christians and included genocide. Spain was actually better off under the Muslims.

How is it hateful?

At least my posts, that is. I can't speak on anyone else's behalf.
 

idav

Being
Premium Member
Spain was actually better off under the Muslims.
I'm kinda wondering a bit more about this part. I've looked quite a bit into "Bloody Marys" reign in the past. Maybe catholic states like that in the past could be put on par with current Islamic state extremism. However I don't see that currently with Christians which is why I asked about Vatican current ideas about spreading theocracies and their current state of oppression. With the way Israel is promoting secular laws I gotta wonder how Islam fails to follow similar patterns of change in light of new insight
 

Godobeyer

the word "Islam" means "submission" to God
Premium Member
I think that while at least a few Western superpowers don't seem to be minding the chaos in Iraq, Syria, Libya, etc., that much, a large part of the chaos is also the responsibility of Middle Eastern people. Let's not forget the Sunni-Shi'a tensions, the passive verbal crusades between many Sunni and Shi'a scholars, and the willingness of many Middle Easterners to support violence against their own compatriots. It's quite unfortunate.

Keep in mind that at no point in this thread have I defended any "Western" countries. I think the U.S., Russia, and a few other global superpowers have caused a lot of destruction and harm in the Middle East. However, that doesn't mean there aren't many Middle Eastern people who also hold part of the responsibility for what has happened over the years.

About stoning, lashing, etc., it is true that most Muslim-majority countries don't implement those punishments, but I think two things are worth considering here:

1) In Egypt, for instance, millions of people voted Islamists into parliament and voted for an Islamist president in free elections. The Islamists were clearly planning to make Shari'a into state law, and many people knew and approved of the idea. If you ask Muslims in a few different Arab countries (as an example) whether they would approve of applying "God's laws" such as what I mentioned—lashing, stoning, etc.—under "correct conditions," do you think most would oppose the idea? I personally don't think so, but maybe our opinions are different here.

2) Even without stoning or lashing, most Muslim-majority countries still persecute LGBT people. I think it is a significantly relevant fact here that the penalty for homosexual sex is death in some Islamic countries. When something like that is embedded into state law, it wouldn't surprise me to see stoning or lashing make their way into state law as well.
In actual problems of Iraq and Syria and Libya (civil war and terrorism) I blame Western countries and Russia more than Muslims.then I blame kings of oil "dominated by West" and Iran and Turkey. agree ?

1) for Egypt,with Morsi I don't know .

Gaza is similiare to "future" of Egypt IF MB took more control, is Gazan stone LGBT...etc ?

2) From stone and lashing you move to next level "presecute" !!

Anyway :)
Yes, there is some presecute and rejection toward LGBT. most of community reject them,freedom is with majority votes :p
 

Saint Frankenstein

Here for the ride
Premium Member
I'm kinda wondering a bit more about this part. I've looked quite a bit into "Bloody Marys" reign in the past. Maybe catholic states like that in the past could be put on par with current Islamic state extremism. However I don't see that currently with Christians which is why I asked about Vatican current ideas about spreading theocracies and their current state of oppression. With the way Israel is promoting secular laws I gotta wonder how Islam fails to follow similar patterns of change in light of new insight
What's going on across the world isn't really about religion. It's a complex situation. It's never just about religion. Much of it has to do with poverty, imperialism and war causing social collapse and chaos, strategic meddling by the US and Russia including proxy wars, money grabs by the military-industrial complex, scapegoating, propaganda, etc. It's the same thing that's always been going on, but on a larger scale.

Oh, and Israel has its own problems with violent extremist Jews, just like there's problems with violent fanatics in Christianity (like the Christian far-right in America, far-right Christians in various African countries, radical Orthodox Christian nationalism in Russia, Greece and elsewhere in Eastern Europe - where non-Orthodox religions lack basic legal rights and recognition), Hinduism (the fascist and violent Hindutva movement which in power in India) and Buddhism (the violent persecution and even genocide of the Muslim minority in Myanmar). So obviously it's not as black and white as many seem to think. The world is going through its greatest turmoil since WWII.
 

idav

Being
Premium Member
In actual problems of Iraq and Syria and Libya (civil war and terrorism) I blame Western countries and Russia more than Muslims.then I blame kings of oil "dominated by West" and Iran and Turkey. agree ?
Really, talking of a region that has been in war since even before the US was even an idea? oh it must be Israels fault for supporting the west and/or vice versa.:p
Anyway :)
Yes, there is some presecute and rejection toward LGBT. most of community reject them,freedom is with majority votes :p
Yeah no doubt.
 

idav

Being
Premium Member
What's going on across the world isn't really about religion. It's a complex situation. It's never just about religion. Much of it has to do with poverty, imperialism and war causing social collapse and chaos, strategic meddling by the US and Russia including proxy wars, money grabs by the military-industrial complex, scapegoating, propaganda, etc. It's the same thing that's always been going on, but on a larger scale.

Oh, and Israel has its own problems with violent extremist Jews, just like there's problems with violent fanatics in Christianity (like the Christian far-right in America, far-right Christians in various African countries, radical Orthodox Christian nationalism in Russia, Greece and elsewhere in Eastern Europe - where non-Orthodox religions lack basic legal rights and recognition), Hinduism (the fascist and violent Hindutva movement which in power in India) and Buddhism (the violent persecution and even genocide of the Muslim minority in Myanmar). So obviously it's not as black and white as many seem to think. The world is going through its greatest turmoil since WWII.
OK but your not addressing my points of Israel establishing secular laws since 2010. Islam is a whole other animal and has less to do with religion and Muslims, so I agree with a lot of what your saying.
 

Saint Frankenstein

Here for the ride
Premium Member
OK but your not addressing my points of Israel establishing secular laws since 2010. Islam is a whole other animal and has less to do with religion and Muslims, so I agree with a lot of what your saying.
I don't see what your point about Israel officially having "secular" laws (FYI, it's not really all that secular: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secularism_in_Israel ) has to do with anything. Are you trying to say there's something unique about Islam that makes it harder to integrate into secularism? Because there isn't.
 

Godobeyer

the word "Islam" means "submission" to God
Premium Member
Really, talking of a region that has been in war since even before the US was even an idea? oh it must be Israels fault for supporting the west and/or vice versa.:p
Israel regime is like planeted by GB and West in middle of heart of Muslims.

No offend ,US (and West) in general made wars more than Muslims, and their victimes were more.

For recently civil wars and terrorism that happening in Iraq and Syria and Libya ,West had big responsibilty on them.
 
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