Yet more things to ignore

[Debater Slayer]

In actual problems of Iraq and Syria and Libya (civil war and terrorism) I blame Western countries and Russia more than Muslims.then I blame kings of oil "dominated by West" and Iran and Turkey. agree ?

I think everyone involved is responsible, including Muslims, albeit in different ways. I'm not sure it makes much sense to tell the family of a victim of the Syrian civil war that "the West" or "the Islamists" are to blame more than this or that side for what happened. At the end of the day, all involved parties have blood on their hands by partaking in the violence (by proxy or not) in different ways: Russia with manpower, Saudi Arabia with money, Iran with manpower and incitation, etc.

Let's not get started on Turkey, because I find Erdogan to be a glorified, hypocritical extremist in the clothing of a "moderate and progressive" leader.

1) for Egypt,with Morsi I don't know .

Gaza is similiare to "future" of Egypt IF MB took more control, is Gazan stone LGBT...etc ?

Morsi was actually relatively mild, at least compared to most Islamists. It was the Islamist parliament that I was more worried about. Many of them were quite die-hard fundamentalist.

I'm not sure what would happen in Gaza if Islamists took control, but I wouldn't put it past them to apply Shari'a in that manner.

2) From stone and lashing you move to next level "presecute" !!

I'm not sure what you mean. Would you mind elaborating?

Stoning and lashing people for harmless actions is a form of persecution. What I also mean is that since there's already persecution of LGBT people happening in some Muslim countries that treat homosexual sex as a capital crime, it doesn't seem unlikely to me that those countries could implement stoning and lashing into state law.

Anyway
Yes, there is some presecute and rejection toward LGBT. most of community reject them,freedom is with majority votes

That's an unfortunate byproduct of pure democracy, and it is one of the reasons I support the system of government of constitutional republics as opposed to full-blown democracies. I believe that some issues that touch on basic human rights just shouldn't be put to popular vote.

In the case of non-democratic countries where such persecution occurs, I think that social reform is definitely needed. That may take a long time to happen, though.

 

[idav]

Are you trying to say there's something unique about Islam that makes it harder to integrate into secularism? Because there isn't.

Really, and the current Islamic states are not evidence of this or are there some strides going on I haven't heard of? I wouldn't even say this if many of the Islamic states policies weren't so radical and even producing stonings as punishment to this day.

Am I missing news of other theocracies doing this.
https://www.jihadwatch.org/2016/04/islamic-state-stones-two-people-to-death-on-charges-of-adultery

 

[Godobeyer]

I think everyone involved is responsible, including Muslims, albeit in different ways. I'm not sure it makes much sense to tell the family of a victim of the Syrian civil war that "the West" or "the Islamists" are to blame more than this or that side for what happened. At the end of the day, all involved parties have blood on their hands by partaking in the violence (by proxy or not) in different ways: Russia with manpower, Saudi Arabia with money, Iran with manpower and incitation, etc.

For victimes probably they don't care.

My concern with whom firing up (caused) these war by weapons and terrorists..;etc

Let's not get started on Turkey, because I find Erdogan to be a glorified, hypocritical extremist in the clothing of a "moderate and progressive" leader.

I do agree , plus Turkey had evil role in Syria

Morsi was actually relatively mild, at least compared to most Islamists. It was the Islamist parliament that I was more worried about. Many of them were quite die-hard fundamentalist.

I'm not sure what would happen in Gaza if Islamists took control, but I wouldn't put it past them to apply Shari'a in that manner.

I don't heard that MB plan to establish a rule for stone ...etc, when they take control.

Gaza is controled by Hamas,Hamas are similaire to MB;

I'm not sure what you mean. Would you mind elaborating?

Stoning and lashing people for harmless actions is a form of persecution. What I also mean is that since there's already persecution of LGBT people happening in some Muslim countries that treat homosexual sex as a capital crime, it doesn't seem unlikely to me that those countries could implement stoning and lashing into state law.

That's an unfortunate byproduct of pure democracy, and it is one of the reasons I support the system of government of constitutional republics as opposed to full-blown democracies. I believe that some issues that touch on basic human rights just shouldn't be put to popular vote.

In the case of non-democratic countries where such persecution occurs, I think that social reform is definitely needed. That may take a long time to happen, though.

In religious (conservation) countries, the commun laws with apply on all.
I think it's unfair/impossible to establish a law which against the majority opinion.

 

[Debater Slayer]

For victimes probably they don't care.

My concern with whom firing up (caused) these war by weapons and terrorists..;etc

Weapons? Yeah, definitely countries like Russia, Iran, and others who are intervening in the conflict.

Like I said, I believe the blame is largely shared in different ways. I think an argument could be made that the sides with greater power (like Russia) have more responsibility not to participate in the conflict or to even try to stop it, but the non-Russians fighting on the ground are responsible too.

I do agree , plus Turkey had evil role in Syria

Erdogan seems to thrive on demagoguery, among other things, by playing the role of a freedom fighter and champion of human rights when in reality he's just another extremist leader.

I don't heard that MB plan to establish a rule for stone ...etc, when they take control.

Gaza is controled by Hamas,Hamas are similaire to MB;

Hamas are probably too busy firing rockets at civilians to care about stoning for the time being.

In religious (conservation) countries, the commun laws with apply on all.
I think it's unfair/impossible to establish a law which against the majority opinion.

We disagree, then, because I don't believe pure democracy's benefits outweigh its harms. That's a discussion for another thread, though.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Really, and the current Islamic states are not evidence of this or are there some strides going on I haven't heard of? I wouldn't even say this if many of the Islamic states policies weren't so radical and even producing stonings as punishment to this day.

Am I missing news of other theocracies doing this.
https://www.jihadwatch.org/2016/04/islamic-state-stones-two-people-to-death-on-charges-of-adultery

That's like saying the Lord's Resistance Army represents Christianity. No, extremists groups aren't grounds for indicting entire world religions. If you're going to use that argument, then all world religions have failed that test.

 

[idav]

That's like saying the Lord's Resistance Army represents Christianity. No, extremists groups aren't grounds for indicting entire world religions. If you're going to use that argument, then all world religions have failed that test.

As far as I know Christians or Jews or any other religion don't have a version of Islam as Muslims do. That's why they are the most prolific in covering the globe with their politicalized version of the Muslim religion. Hear me when I say this isn't about the Muslim religion.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

As far as I know Christians or Jews or any other religion don't have a version of Islam as Muslims do. That's why they are the most prolific in covering the globe with their politicalized version of the Muslim religion. Hear me when I say this isn't about the Muslim religion.

The hell? How in the hell do you think Christianity spread throughout the world? Purely peaceful missionaries? You think the Church was reined in and secularism was enforced in the West because the Church decided it was a good idea?

 

[idav]

The hell? How in the hell do you think Christianity spread throughout the world? Purely peaceful missionaries? You think the Church was reined in and secularism was enforced in the West because the Church decided it was a good idea?

So your just going to stick to Christianity was bad In the dark ages, I addressed that already first thing. How in the heck do Christians have so many theocracies around the world today compared to Islam? Oh they don't. Hmmm.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

So your just going to stick to Christianity was bad In the dark ages, I addressed that already first thing. How in the heck do Christians have so many theocracies around the world today compared to Islam? Oh they don't. Hmmm.

It's because the people overthrew them, seized Church property and massacred the clergy, monks and nuns, in many cases.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

How in the heck do Christians have so many theocracies around the world today compared to Islam?

Actually, quite a few countries in Europe still have an official religion, and even in America today the Church--especially the right-winged Evangelicals--are driving the state.

 

[Aquitaine]

Which muslim empire/dysnasty,royal family/army wiped out entire ethnic groups?

Armenian Genocide under the Ottomans.
Though for the record, my position in this thread has been that "westerners" are no worse than muslims: I am not arguing that muslims are some horrible race of monsters.

The thread has been derailed by people who are fueled by hate, not intelligence or education. That was the whole point of me making this, to see if people would actually respond to the points I was making or go off on their own Islamophobic tangent. Guess what happened?

Hey, I was happy to leave this thread for fear of derailing.
Whilst I admit I have derailed in this thread - for which I apologise - you need to learn to distinguish criticism (and/or difference of opinion) regarding elements of Islam with "Islamophobia".

I meant Ottman empire did not consider for most of Muslims as occupation or bad in that time, on contrary of Britsh or France occupation to Muslims (or world). it's ulgy and sometimes evil.

Since when is a foreign colonial invader not considered an occupier? I suspect you're lying here.
Also, go ask an Armenian how they felt about Ottoman rule.

 

[Aquitaine]

I have gradually become convinced that part of the problem that leads to so much misunderstanding and miscommunication in discussions in the media and elsewhere on the subject of Islam and Muslims is the employment of the widely misused term "Islamophobia" to shut down valid criticism of Islam and many Muslims' beliefs and dismiss it as hatred of Muslims.

^ This here is such an important point that many need to realise.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Though for the record, my position in this thread has been that "westerners" are no worse than muslims: I am not arguing that muslims are some horrible race of monsters.

That's pretty much where I stand. We have just way too many examples of bad people, corrupt power, and dangerous mentalities that are running the show and waving so many banners to justify it that there really isn't much of a reason to suspect the issue is really with Islam, but more of a problem with people.

 

[idav]

Actually, quite a few countries in Europe still have an official religion, and even in America today the Church--especially the right-winged Evangelicals--are driving the state.

Sure but that is an entirely different thing when their governments are based on secular idea. European nations are largely secular and the US constitution is based on open religion and secular ideologies.

An Islamic state is different in that way because they have nothing to hold them back from their own religious ideologies and actually are encouraged to make the state abide by the Quran. With Islam it is a political ideology that actually throws politiics directly into their religion which is why some countries that are not even Islamic states implement Sharia law, like we see in Britain.

I know of no other religion that has done that. Islam is whole other animal from the actual muslim religion, I feel like a lot of people don't realize the difference.

Which other religions have managed to do this.
Sharia law in Britain link.

The bible doesn't have government laws intertwined with its ideology to the degree the quran does, or else we would have more christian theocracies like we see with Islam. Secular ideologies are protections from one religion being able to institute their ideology directly into the government through direct injection.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

the US constitution is based on open religion and secular ideologies.

And obviously that isn't enough, because we still have a controversy with teaching evolution and creationism in publicly funded schools. We have politicians running on a Christian platform and saying the will enact Bible-based laws, and far too often they get their way. Actually, it's rather peculiar that secular America has more of the church getting involved in the state than many of the places in Europe that still have official state religions but are much more secular in practice.

 

[Godobeyer]

Since when is a foreign colonial invader not considered an occupier? I suspect you're lying here.
Also, go ask an Armenian how they felt about Ottoman rule.

Why dont ask the Turks for Armenian claim too ?

You missunderstand my point we don't consider the occupation of Ottoman awful as Western

For example turks took control on people of north africa,France took control on north Africa too.

France did crimes toward Algerians, Turks did not

 

[idav]

And obviously that isn't enough, because we still have a controversy with teaching evolution and creationism in publicly funded schools. We have politicians running on a Christian platform and saying the will enact Bible-based laws, and far too often they get their way. Actually, it's rather peculiar that secular America has more of the church getting involved in the state than many of the places in Europe that still have official state religions but are much more secular in practice.

No it isn't enough because US are 30th in the world, in the maths in sciences, at that rate we may as well be a state/nation that oppresses education.

Yes I find that peculiar with the European nations being more secular and having state religions. I've asked buddies from those regions and they said even so that people basically aren't religious for the most part.

The US is divided on the subject but there are enough people, about half, that respect the constitution enough to enact laws based on logic and reason rather than "cause the bible says so".

How much harder it must be to get passed religion purposely part of the state government, and that is what Islam does that no other religion does to that degree. Even Mexico a heavily Catholic country established religious freedom since 1857.
Religion and Secular State of Mexico Link

 

[Aquitaine]

Why dont ask the Turks for Armenian claim too ?

You missunderstand my point we don't consider the occupation of Ottoman awful as Western

For example turks took control on people of north africa,France took control on north Africa too.

France did crimes toward Algerians, Turks did not

I find it highly unlikely that the Ottomans "did not crimes" to the people they conquered and occupied. Empires do not expand out of the kindness of their hearts.
I think your 'Muslims can do no wrong' mentality is showing again.

 

[Godobeyer]

I find it highly unlikely that the Ottomans "did not crimes" to the people they conquered and occupied. Empires do not expand out of the kindness of their hearts.
I think your 'Muslims can do no wrong' mentality is showing again.

I have no trust in Western media about claims against Muslims ,because of much lies delivered.

Turkey always deny that claim. but the West insist to stuck it !

Erdoğan says Germany is last country to speak on “genocide”

https://www.turkishminute.com/2016/06/04/erdogan-says-germany-last-country-speak-genocide/

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I have no trust in Western media about claims against Muslims ,because of much lies delivered.

Turkey always deny that claim. but the West insist to stuck it !

Erdoğan says Germany is last country to speak on “genocide”

https://www.turkishminute.com/2016/06/04/erdogan-says-germany-last-country-speak-genocide/

Considering very few people living today had anything or part of WWII, I think it's time to move beyond such things. There is hardly anyone left alive who fought as a Nazi, yet their children, grandchilren, great grandchildren, and great great grandchildren are being punished.