Your biggest intellectual compromise for faith

[tarasan]

In order for God to not be willing to eliminate evil/suffering, etc, something inherent about them must be useful. They cannot be a prerequisite to something else, or teach us anything, otherwise they are unnecessary. They must be intrinsically of value, which is a very slippery position.

I have heard it say that they are consequences of the fall, when we rejected God he, to a certian degree withdrew himself from us, after all thats what the orignal people wanted. so what is inherent about them is the fact that they symbolise our fall from grace, our rejection of God.

 

[PolyHedral]

They don't symbolise our curiosity and inquisitiveness? After all, it is my understanding that Adam did not understand the consequences of taking the fruit, or even what "death" meant. (Since it didn't exist in Eden.) The choice seemed to be "Don't do this, and nothing changes, or do this, and something novel and unknown happens."

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I have heard it say that they are consequences of the fall, when we rejected God he, to a certian degree withdrew himself from us, after all thats what the orignal people wanted. so what is inherent about them is the fact that they symbolise our fall from grace, our rejection of God.

So... in this formulation of the Problem of Evil, you disagree with statement 3?

1. God exists.
2. God is omnipotent, omniscient, and perfectly good.
3. A perfectly good being would want to prevent all evils.
4. An omniscient being knows every way in which evils can come into existence.
5. An omnipotent being, who knows every way in which an evil can come into existence, has the power to prevent that evil from coming into existence.
6. A being who knows every way in which an evil can come into existence, who is able to prevent that evil from coming into existence, and who wants to do so, would prevent the existence of that evil.
7. If there exists an omnipotent, omniscient, and perfectly good being, then no evil exists.
8. Evil exists (logical contradiction).

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

They don't symbolise our curiosity and inquisitiveness? After all, it is my understanding that Adam did not understand the consequences of taking the fruit, or even what "death" meant. (Since it didn't exist in Eden.) The choice seemed to be "Don't do this, and nothing changes, or do this, and something novel and unknown happens."

My reading of the "fall" story in Genesis is a lot like the myth of Prometheus in Greek mythology. The only difference is that the Genesis version has this idea imposed on top that Zeus was right to deny fire from humanity, which twists up the whole underlying message of the myth.

 

[tarasan]

They don't symbolise our curiosity and inquisitiveness? After all, it is my understanding that Adam did not understand the consequences of taking the fruit, or even what "death" meant. (Since it didn't exist in Eden.) The choice seemed to be "Don't do this, and nothing changes, or do this, and something novel and unknown happens."

the word of knowledge used in genesis was used to describe expereinece not theoretical stuff im afriad they did know.

 

[Magic Man]

you havin done well in showing that mostly because you cant account for how a omniscient God would think, because quite frankly your not all knowing. and youve only been focusing mainly on our happiness, but what if a loving God is willing to sacrifice your happiness for something greater? you see these are the little nooks in the plan and you have soon me nothing to prove otherwise.

I don't have to think like an omniscient being. You said all I have to do is prove it's logically impossible. I've done that. The god we're talking about doesn't need to sacrifice my happiness. That's the point. He can make the thing greater come true without sacrificing my happiness.

 

[tarasan]

So... in this formulation of the Problem of Evil, you disagree with statement 3?

im going to make a leap and say yes, God can have nothing to do with evil, but we choose to flirt with it then rather than destroying us he withdraws from us so that he can bring us back to him. God is not just a perfectly good God, he is also personal, and so rather than destroy us right away he tolerates evil in an attempt to allow us to repent, at the end of the age though all bets are off and all these points come into play. except evil wont exist.

 

[PolyHedral]

the word of knowledge used in genesis was used to describe expereinece not theoretical stuff im afriad they did know.

But that's a contradiction. They can't have experience of death if it doesn't exist in Eden, and it didn't.

God is not just a perfectly good God, he is also personal, and so rather than destroy us right away he tolerates evil in an attempt to allow us to repent

Unnecessary. God knows perfectly who will and won't repent. Omniscient, remember?

 

[tarasan]

I don't have to think like an omniscient being. You said all I have to do is prove it's logically impossible. I've done that. The god we're talking about doesn't need to sacrifice my happiness. That's the point. He can make the thing greater come true without sacrificing my happiness.

no you havnt im afriad although its nice that you think so.

look at my last post with penguin,

 

[tarasan]

But that's a contradiction. They can't have experience of death if it doesn't exist in Eden, and it didn't.

Unnecessary. God knows perfectly who will and won't repent. Omniscient, remember?

yes but we could have theoretical knowledge of what death was, which is what i was getting at we had theoretical knowledge of what death, sin, evil was but we hadnt experienced it.

indeed but were in time arnt we? so dont we need the time to be born and live out our lives so that we can? also it was to give people no excuse when they were condemed cause they had an entire life to repent but didnt.

 

[Magic Man]

hasnt he already? with the bible?

No. That was a bunch of guys a long time ago writing a book. I'm talking about him coming directly to me in a way that is unmistakable. How do I know the Bible isn't just a bunch of stories written by ancient goat-herders?

also in Romans it shows us that for those that search for God genuinely then he will reviel himself to them, so your lost there as well im afriad.

Again, this is a great example of mental gymnastics. Yes, all you have to do is believe and he'll show himself to you. I used to be Catholic for many years, as many other atheists have. I'm talking about God coming to me in an unequivocal way, not just some "feeling" that there's something there.

yes on your part, because if your persoanlity is being manipulated by God to do what he wants you do then you will not exist.

He doesn't have to manipulate me to do what he wants me to do. Just don't create another option for me to do.

and angels have free will and we will when we are in Heaven.

So, you don't go by the traditional view of angels? How do they remain so happy and by God's side with free will? How do we have free will in heaven? How would that be any different than Earth? What you're telling me is that there's a way for us to have free will, but be in a perfect place and be perfectly happy forever. So, why not just send us straight there, rather than sending us to Earth first?

 

[Magic Man]

no because people will have gone through the suffering here on earth, so that when they do get into heaven they will not do what adam did.

Wait. How do you have free will without sin?

 

[PolyHedral]

so dont we need the time to be born and live out our lives so that we can? also it was to give people no excuse when they were condemed cause they had an entire life to repent but didnt.

But He knew that they wouldn't, before they were born, if He chose. And why do we need to make mistakes that God can easily prevent?

 

[tarasan]

Wait. How do you have free will without sin?

because we have the choice to sin, we just choose not to.

 

[Magic Man]

no you havnt im afriad although its nice that you think so.

Whether or not you accept it is irrelevant. I've done it. Look at all of my recent posts.

 

[tarasan]

But He knew that they wouldn't, before they were born, if He chose. And why do we need to make mistakes that God can easily prevent?

well if God stopped them from sinning they would never have the choice to rebel now would they?

if ive read you right?

 

[tarasan]

Whether or not you accept it is irrelevant. I've done it. Look at all of my recent posts.

William Lane Craig explains why God permits evil and suffering « Wintery Knight
he can explian it better than me.

 

[Magic Man]

because we have the choice to sin, we just choose not to.

OK, then why don't we just have that on Earth? The main question here is why is Earth necessary. If we can exist in a place that is perfect and be perfectly happy forever while having free will, why wouldn't a loving god just do that for us?

 

[PolyHedral]

well if God stopped them from sinning they would never have the choice to rebel now would they?

Of course they have a choice. They could ignore God's advice. The fact that God could present the advice in a way he knows won't be ignored is besides the point.

 

[Magic Man]

William Lane Craig explains why God permits evil and suffering « Wintery Knight
he can explian it better than me.

You do realize you're a perfect example of the intellectual compromises the title of the thread refers to, right? All he can do is use better words to describe the intellectual compromises you are guilty of.

Let me state it simply. There is no reason for an omniscient, omnipotent, loving God to allow pain and suffering. It is logically impossible.