Your biggest intellectual compromise for faith

[angellous_evangellous]

How do I know the Bible isn't just a bunch of stories written by ancient goat-herders?

Ancient goat-herders weren't literate.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

im going to make a leap and say yes, God can have nothing to do with evil, but we choose to flirt with it then rather than destroying us he withdraws from us so that he can bring us back to him.

I'd say that standing by and doing nothing while evil occurs doesn't get rid of the problem. Choosing not to stop evil doesn't mean you're "having nothing to do with evil". If you're aware of the evil, then you're involved... regardless of the course of action (or inaction) you choose.

God is not just a perfectly good God, he is also personal, and so rather than destroy us right away he tolerates evil in an attempt to allow us to repent, at the end of the age though all bets are off and all these points come into play. except evil wont exist.

What bearing does God being a personal god have on the matter?

 

[Kilgore Trout]

Ancient goat-herders weren't literate.

Then who authored my copy of the Idiots Guide to Ancient Goat-Herding?

 

[Magic Man]

Then who authored my copy of the Idiots Guide to Ancient Goat-Herding?

God..

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Then who authored my copy of the Idiots Guide to Ancient Goat-Herding?

Kinky Friedman

 

[Beaudreaux]

well mostly I would disagree with that because lets be frank, they arnt omniscent, and they stated their reasons for doing what they did quite openly didnt they? the fact is that while we have evidence for what people do and what they intend through their actions and what they say we dont really have that from God do we?

Many Christians say that God expresses his intentions through the Bible. Didnt he say to Noah that he was going to commit near genocide because people werent doing what he said? That seems pretty evil to me. Yet, your argument is that he might just have an unknown reason that He isn't telling. Hitler said he was killing the Jews to further the master race, but you cannot know for sure that he didn't have an really good unknown reason that he wasn't telling. Right?

so while we can deduce what people are like through there actions we cant do it with God.

and again let me ask you this it is fact that we dont know enough to call God evil or uncaring so why naturally assume that from our view he is?

If we cannot deduce anything about God from his actions, then not only can we not call him evil, we can't call him ANYTHING. Not loving. Not almighty. Not He. Nothing. Be careful about going down that road.

 

[Beaudreaux]

no because people will have gone through the suffering here on earth, so that when they do get into heaven they will not do what adam did.

That makes no sense. Some people in heaven will have suffered tremendously and some hardly at all. Certainly there are people on earth who have already suffered more than some people in heaven and yet they still sin. How do you account for that?

 

[Beaudreaux]

William Lane Craig explains why God permits evil and suffering « Wintery Knight
he can explian it better than me.

Turning to someone you think can solve a problem with your faith that you can't figure out...the intellectual cartwheel...

 

[Beaudreaux]

William Lane Craig explains why God permits evil and suffering « Wintery Knight
he can explian it better than me.

From Mr. Craig

I have to confess that the argument from evil and suffering lost all force for me when I began to think of it as the argument from self-centered hedonism, or “the argument from whining”.

Yeah! You know who I hate? Those whiny little Hedonistic brats in the pediatric cancer ward. "oh mommy! Please make it stop hurting! Oh mommy! I want to grow up and have a life!". Who do they think they are!

 

[waitasec]

From Mr. Craig



Yeah! You know who I hate? Those whiny little Hedonistic brats in the pediatric cancer ward. "oh mommy! Please make it stop hurting! Oh mommy! I want to grow up and have a life!". Who do they think they are!

but why must there be a reason for anything
can't we just accept chaos...?

bad things happen to good people, innocent children, there is no reason
it just happens...

if we were in a position to help those in need then we are responsible for them...if we do everything we can to help those that are suffering or terminally ill to no avail then we KNOW we did ALL we could do
and no one is to blame

 

[kingsherald]

Mball is essensially presenting a flaw in theism that is in the Epicurean question, "If God is good and powerful, why doesn't God just make us as we will be in heaven."

Well, I don't know. I can simply say first that in Christian tradition, that's just the way that it is. Christianity typically blames humanity for the state that we are in - and God did create us without sin in a perfect environs - and we are redeemed to everlasting life through Christ. This theology is fundamentally flawed to many people, but IMHO we can lay all of our anger towards God on the cross of Christ.

But I have thought of it like this. God is redeemed through Christ as well as humanity, and God will recoincile humanity to Godself on a cosmic level when God chooses.

God has nothing to be redeemed from. God is righteous altogether, pure in holiness. He is not a man that we should liken Him to a man. God is love. God is righteous wrath also. God is not unjust to punish the wicked. He owes salvation to no man. In His grace He has elected some to salvation and for this He ought to be praised and glorified forever. And He will be. Those who end up in hell deserve to be there. In fact, those who end up in heaven also deserve to be in hell. But thanks be to God that He has chosen a people for Himself from before the foundation of the world, when He was under no obligation to do so. The Cross proves the righteousness of God, that He must punish sin wherever it is found. There is a God in heaven and I am not him. We would all do well to believe this. The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom, and to depart from evil is understanding.

 

[kingsherald]

can i ask how?

it seems to me that this is logically incoherant.

to make someone be happy is to violate their free will, God cant give/and not give us free will, its illogical

at least thats how I see it.

God can indeed force people to be happy, and man does not have free will.

God is Sovereign over all things in His universe. Every molecule and every atom move according to His decree, which He purposed in Himself from eternity, before the universe was formed. Man has a will, but his will is corrupt and in bondage to the rule and dominion of sin.

By nature, man cannot choose that which pleases God. This is a result of the fall, whereby Adam fell and all his posterity with him. However, God can make a man willing in the day of His power, and so He does, to draw souls to Christ in saving faith. All that God the Father gives to His Son Jesus Christ, will come to Christ and be saved. In these cases, God makes men willing to believe in Jesus, whereas they could not previously.

 

[waitasec]

God can indeed force people to be happy, and man does not have free will.

God is Sovereign over all things in His universe. Every molecule and every atom move according to His decree, which He purposed in Himself from eternity, before the universe was formed. Man has a will, but his will is corrupt and in bondage to the rule and dominion of sin.

By nature, man cannot choose that which pleases God. This is a result of the fall, whereby Adam fell and all his posterity with him. However, God can make a man willing in the day of His power, and so He does, to draw souls to Christ in saving faith. All that God the Father gives to His Son Jesus Christ, will come to Christ and be saved. In these cases, God makes men willing to believe in Jesus, whereas they could not previously.

the nemesis of god;
our free will,
where god is found to be powerless
where god has no choice but to succumb to our free will

 

[tarasan]

Turning to someone you think can solve a problem with your faith that you can't figure out...the intellectual cartwheel...

that wasnt the intention, its just I figured he would be able to articulate it better than me, Doing this kind of discussion on this forum has alot of disadvantages, I was trying to eliminate that by getting a person who spoke it.

that is all

 

[tarasan]

I'd say that standing by and doing nothing while evil occurs doesn't get rid of the problem. Choosing not to stop evil doesn't mean you're "having nothing to do with evil". If you're aware of the evil, then you're involved... regardless of the course of action (or inaction) you choose.

but he did make a move to get rid of the problem didnt he? also the reason he withdrew is because it was humanities choice to do that, they rejected God so he withdrew.

What bearing does God being a personal god have on the matter?

CS Lewis says it well in Merely Christianity. He states thats Gods goodness is perfect and therefore cannot tolerate evil, and if God were just good then he would have obliterated everything then and there at the fall. However because he has personal attributes like mercy and love, so he witholds his judgement and allows us to choose to come back to him.

 

[tarasan]

Many Christians say that God expresses his intentions through the Bible. Didnt he say to Noah that he was going to commit near genocide because people werent doing what he said? That seems pretty evil to me. Yet, your argument is that he might just have an unknown reason that He isn't telling. Hitler said he was killing the Jews to further the master race, but you cannot know for sure that he didn't have an really good unknown reason that he wasn't telling. Right?

Im sorry this is just silly, God only did extreme judgments on the rares of occasions, its not like he set out to do that, that wasnt his ultiamte Goal was it? to wipe people out? Hitlers however was he blatantly stated that it was to the extend were there could be no other reason.

If we cannot deduce anything about God from his actions, then not only can we not call him evil, we can't call him ANYTHING. Not loving. Not almighty. Not He. Nothing. Be careful about going down that road.

thats just silly I didnt say anything I just said he permitts suffering, because it doesnt blantantly say why does it?

We can deduce that is loving
Merciful
saved from sins etc

 

[tarasan]

From Mr. Craig



Yeah! You know who I hate? Those whiny little Hedonistic brats in the pediatric cancer ward. "oh mommy! Please make it stop hurting! Oh mommy! I want to grow up and have a life!". Who do they think they are!

awesome thanks for the confirmation of his point.

 

[tarasan]

That makes no sense. Some people in heaven will have suffered tremendously and some hardly at all. Certainly there are people on earth who have already suffered more than some people in heaven and yet they still sin. How do you account for that?

thats quite irrelevant isnt it? its the fact that people know what suffering does, how unfiar the fallen world is and how corrupt it is.

It would be a deterent because people would be aware of all these factors that made up world.

 

[Beaudreaux]

Im sorry this is just silly, God only did extreme judgments on the rares of occasions,

Hitler only tried to wipe out the Jewish people once.

its not like he set out to do that, that wasnt his ultiamte Goal was it? to wipe people out?

Well...yeah! His goal was to kill every person on the planet except for one family. Did you read the story?

Hitlers however was he blatantly stated that it was to the extend were there could be no other reason.

God also blatantly stated his reason to Noah (and through the scriptures, to the world) to the extent where there could be no other reason.

We can deduce that is loving
Merciful
saved from sins etc

Big foul here. How can you deduce that God is loving and not be able to deduce that he is not loving?

 

[Beaudreaux]

awesome thanks for the confirmation of his point.

No problem dude. Hey, is it fair to say that most Christians are like you and have no sympathy for these complaining cancer kids? I know a lot of silly atheists who actually get sad when a child dies a painful drawn out death at age 9.

Hey...did you just do a somersault?