Your position about Islam

[Sabour]

I wonder when the OP is going to come back and start answering questions on this thread.

Sorry I live in a country where electricity goes of for many hours

 

[Sabour]

I think at this point this thread is the 9,123,212 go around of the same basic set of arguments and has drifted so far from the OP that I doubt much will be done in that regard.

If the Islam DIR were green rather than blue and this thread were tightly moderated there, then we might see a different outcome.

I wanted to put it the Islam DIR but was pointed by Luisdantes to put it here so debates can take place.

I am still thinking to start another thread there.

 

[Sabour]

He only posted the OP this time yesterday and logged out a few minutes later. He hasn't logged back in since.
A hundred hostile posts to read. He may never bother responding.

Tom

On the other side, I didn't imagine to find such number of replies.

 

[icehorse]

There are many ways to evaluate what you have in hand.

Didn't you ever hear that the proof of Islam is the Quraan it self.

If you read the Quraan, which you said you did, you will notice the direct challenges. You will also notice how Allah reasons with people and continuously asks people to reflect down on things.

Another way to see things is reading about the life of our prophet, If you wish to do so, I recommend you reading "the first muslim" which was written by an agnostic Jew.

I appreciate what you're trying to do, but the above is a non-answer to my questions. I'll summarize my previous post:

Islam makes the claim that it is the perfect, total solution for life. Quite a big claim. Show me evidence in the real world of many Muslims living this perfect life. Show me one Muslim majority country that demonstrates how great Islam is.

 

[Sabour]

Just for fun, I spent a few seconds with google search and found the following about how Muslims look at interpreting the Quran. The details are not something I follow but the basic point is that the Quran is subject to real differences in how it's interpreted by Muslims Part 2: The Teachings of the Qur'an | The Qur'an in Islam | Books on Islam and Muslims | Al-Islam.org

You have provided in interesting link when I looked up on the title. This is something that I would like to read once I answer the replies on this thread. Looks interesting.

I don't know if that would answer anything you have in mind, but majority of the Quraan is clear in meaning and there are some verses like what was provided are not clear in meaning. In that case muslims are told to follow their heart because their heart will lead them.

However this would be in matters were there are contradicting interpretations from the scholars and there isn't a clear stand and the proofs for both sides are fair. SO this would be a rare case.

 

[vskipper]

I appreciate what you're trying to do, but the above is a non-answer to my questions. I'll summarize my previous post:

Islam makes the claim that it is the perfect, total solution for life. Quite a big claim. Show me evidence in the real world of many Muslims living this perfect life. Show me one Muslim majority country that demonstrates how great Islam is.

Show me one example of a "Muslim" country where the majority adhere to Islam & dont submit to modern western materialism

Come on icehorse try using tactics you didnt do on gawaher. You're boring me

 

[icehorse]

Show me one example of a "Muslim" country where the majority adhere to Islam & dont submit to modern western materialism

Come on icehorse try using tactics you didnt do on gawaher. You're boring me

When that question gets answered I might change my opinion.

But seriously, are you saying the Islam is too weak to stand up to "Western materialism"?

(And also, I would say that there are many Muslim majority countries that have not adopted Western culture.)

 

[beenie]

I disagree with that.

First equality doesn't mean being the same because every sex has different traits and not the same things would be suitable for both.

Second, if you ask our muslim sisters, there will be many who prefer things being that way because this is what suits them.

It should be a woman's choice whether to pray separately from the men. Separate entrances (often in the back or side of the mosque) and sub-standard amenities (ie, dark, small, unkempt, crowded rooms for women, and open, light, airy, spacious rooms for the men)... that just ****** me off. Forced segregation is something men decided would make their lives easier, as in they can "concentrate" better. As if merely seeing a woman would destroy their prayer. Muslim women feed into the problem by "voluntarily" segregating and covering themselves up, etc., rather than forcing the men to grow up and be mature. Segregation at all religious events is inconvenient, as the women are often left with the children in cramped quarters while the men enjoy the event.

Segregation and covering up wouldn't be necessary if Muslim men acted like adults instead of a pack of dogs in heat.

This is a primary example of individuals confusing the wahhabi ideology that has bled into mainstream Islam as actual Islam. Take a look at the kabba or the masjid of Medina and you will notice something....NO BARRIER!

Also if you read the hadiths you can notice case after case where men & women worshipped together (granted that the women stood behind the men but if you think about the Muslim form of prayer you can see the practicle reason for this)

In addition to this you will notice not one example of segregation of the sexes mentioned in the Qur'an. Wahhabis rely a lot on hadiths (most of questionale source & contradictory to the sunna & the Qur'an)

Indeed. Although considered an "exception", hajj is not segregated at all.

Regarding the Qur'an only being pure in Arabic, let's think about this one. Islam is supposed to be a universal religion, for all. Why does everyone have to learn a complicated, complex language to get the message? Pick a language that's easily translated into many languages... after all, it's God talking.

That, along with the nearly forced Arab dress code (and many other customs), makes Islam foreign to most.

 

[Brinne]

1- What is your position about Islam?

I actually went into a period where I looked into Islam. It was more a curiosity to me than a viable religious path; however to immerse myself in my studies I tried living Muslim for a few days and it made me really appreciate the religion. There's a lot of discipline but there's also a lot of reward. It was kind of like a familiar mysticism -- if that makes sense. It was "exotic" without being too alien (most of the theological concepts of Islam aren't too far fetched to people living in a Christian society).

I think it is a very nice religion that has been tainted by extremists -- just as all religions are in one way or another.

2- Do you have any questions that you would like having answers to?

What is Islam's opinion on nature and the divinity of nature (do animals have souls in the Muslim perspective? ect.)

3- Why do you think Islam is wrong?

I don't. It's just one of the many religious paths that people find comfort in.

 

[Parsimony]

1- What is your position about Islam?

I tend not to care what religion someone practices so long as (1) the practice is completely voluntary and (2) they do not try to force others to live by their beliefs. There are, however, some things about it that I am not particularly fond of, such as inequality between the sexes (i.e. women are required to cover their heads in public but men are not) and celibacy is forbidden (I think marriage should be a personal choice, not a requirement).

2- Do you have any questions that you would like having answers to?

Not off the top of my head.

3- Why do you think Islam is wrong?

It's mostly a matter of not seeing convincing evidence that it is more likely to be the correct religion versus other religions.

 

[Triumphant_Loser]

I hope that only interested member about the topic would reply to it.

I have been pointed to create this thread in this section so I would be able to debate things.



Please note that some complex questions may require some time so I can get the answer to. I may also answer some question along with youtube videos.

I wish questions would be more directed towards theology and about Islam rather than being about Muslims and what they seem to do.

After all, not all muslims represent Islam. I would like to start with a misconception about Islam. This misconception is that we hate Jesus peace be upon him. As a matter of fact we don't and it is the other way round. Jesus peace be upon him is one of the greatest prophets in Islam and no one can be a muslim without believing in him and his miraculous birth from the mother Mary. There are far more misconceptions about Islam an here I would like to shed light and debate some of them


Two things I wish to hear from members so we can debate when there is a room for debate. I would be basing my answers from the Quraan when possible.

1- What is your position about Islam?

2- Do you have any questions that you would like having answers to?

3- Why do you think Islam is wrong?

1.) My position on Islam is the same as it is for all other organized religions. It makes many claims of knowing about the divine, but with such little evidence to back these claims up.

2.) Why does the lack of a Y chromosome make one human being more inferior to another?

3.) I think Islam is wrong because it does not provide evidence that any of what it says is true. It brings up the same circular reasoning that most of the other organized religions use. "My holy book is true because my holy book says that my holy book is true."

I also object to Islam on moral grounds as well. I don't agree with pedophilia. Muhammad was said to have had sex with a prepubescent girl at the age of nine, while in his mid 50's. Here in the United States, he would have been in prison for that sort of behavior.

 

[Sabour]

1. The Koran is borrowed greatly from Jewish and Christian theology and it makes very big claims for itself, claims which it never substantiates. Its doctrine is inherently abrasive to core Western values and because it does not separate the church and state I believe that unless Islam is tamed and domesticated the disturbed cultures it shapes will continue to give rise to the human rights abominations we see wherever we look within the Moslem majority world (and increasingly here in the West also).

The reason for that is because there were many prophets sent down, and Moses, Jesus and Muhammad peace be upon them were three of these prophets. These three prophets had revelations Torah, Injeel and Quraan. These three prophets were all sent from God to tell us the same thing which is worshiping Allah and only Allah alone. Quraan revives some of the stories in the past revelations. That is why one would say that Quraan borrowed things.

2. Many. From a theological perspective I wonder how Muhammad’s rape of a 8 year 10 month old girl, or the rape of Safiyah are explained.

I wish that was put in a better way but here is the answer.

The first thing I want to say about the subject is that the condition in the seventh century where very different especially for the Arabs.

At that time, people used to marry at a very young age.

For example, my mom married when she was 18. By the way, she married late, her generation use to marry at the age of 15. That was a normal thing to do in our century. In the seventeenth century, the minimum legal age to marry was 12, in England. Am I right ? That is what I read in an article.

Anyways, in the Arab times at the seventh century, marriages for the daughters were considered a way to make relations between families stronger, and that is for business reasons. They used to choose who will their daughters marry since she is first born. But that was not the case with the prophet.

Just let me say, that in Islam, cultural value are okay to follow if they don't stand against the message of Islam. The condition of Islam is that the girl has to reach the age of puberty.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gt7vS7kxc50&feature=related

I am constantly perturbed to the fact Muhammad is said to be a peaceful and perfect man given the fact he raped and slaughtered so many in wars he started.

I would suggest you would read about the life of the prophet to know better.

Again I would suggest you to read a book called "the first muslim" which was written by an agnostic Jew.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Y2Or0LlO6g

I wonder why Islam claims to be perfect and perfectly clear yet for 1400 years so many Moslems seem to get this perfect and perfectly clear faith wrong because so many keep doing the same violent things all of the time.

Who said these muslims are following or acting on their faith? If one is born to Islam it doesn't mean that he will automatically follow

I wonder why they lie about verses such as 5:32

Here is the verse 5:32

Because of that, We decreed upon the Children of Israel that whoever kills a soul unless for a soul or for corruption [done] in the land - it is as if he had slain mankind entirely. And whoever saves one - it is as if he had saved mankind entirely. And our messengers had certainly come to them with clear proofs. Then indeed many of them, [even] after that, throughout the land, were transgressors.

This is Islam. If people are not following it means they are not acting as a mulsim nor following Islam, it doesn't mean they are saying that this is wrong.

or 9:25

Here is the verse.

Allah has already given you victory in many regions and [even] on the day of Hunayn, when your great number pleased you, but it did not avail you at all, and the earth was confining for you with its vastness; then you turned back, fleeing.

I didn't understand your point? These verses refer to certain events through out the life of the prophet. I didn't know what you meant?

or try and say laws such as death for apostasy are ‘un-Islamic’.

This is a topic that even the biggest scholars are debating in Islam. There is a good thread about this topic already on this forums.

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/islam-dir/166373-apostasy-islam.html#post3867655

I wonder why so many Moslems claim the koran can only be understood in Arabic.

It is not that it is only understood in Arabic. It is that many non muslims claim that the Quraan meant that when actually, according to the Arabic language, it is clear that it didn't. Besides that the Arabic language is very complex and one word is associated with more than one meaning. And it is often that one word in Arabic takes like 5 words to explain in English. So Quraan is always better understood in Arabic and things are more clear. One can find many errors in translations if he is to read the QUraan both in Arabic and in English.

Go back to the video I posted about the agnostic Jew woman. She talks about that also

This claimed fact surely means that most Moslems will not be able to understand what their own faiths pronounces seeing as most Moslems do not speak Arabic! I could go on and on.

Interpretations can serve as explanations when different interpretation are researched and questions are asked and things are searched.

 

[Thruve]

It should be a woman's choice whether to pray separately from the men. Separate entrances (often in the back or side of the mosque) and sub-standard amenities (ie, dark, small, unkempt, crowded rooms for women, and open, light, airy, spacious rooms for the men)... that just ****** me off. Forced segregation is something men decided would make their lives easier, as in they can "concentrate" better. As if merely seeing a woman would destroy their prayer. Muslim women feed into the problem by "voluntarily" segregating and covering themselves up, etc., rather than forcing the men to grow up and be mature. Segregation at all religious events is inconvenient, as the women are often left with the children in cramped quarters while the men enjoy the event.

Segregation and covering up wouldn't be necessary if Muslim men acted like adults instead of a pack of dogs in heat.



Indeed. Although considered an "exception", hajj is not segregated at all.

Regarding the Qur'an only being pure in Arabic, let's think about this one. Islam is supposed to be a universal religion, for all. Why does everyone have to learn a complicated, complex language to get the message? Pick a language that's easily translated into many languages... after all, it's God talking.

That, along with the nearly forced Arab dress code (and many other customs), makes Islam foreign to most.

I made a bag of popcorn cause this post is like a cinema to me.
I must watch..

 

[Sabour]

I know that Islam is not compatible with or even friendly to animism, but it is frightening how closely that mirrors Kardecist and particularly Roustaing Spiritism.

Are you aware that a certain Jean-Baptiste Roustaing is believed to this day by many Brazilians to have been the reincarnation of the Prophet, and his variety of Spiritism makes many of the same claims that Islam does (weird as I find that to be)?

There are many terms that I didn't understand your reply, but I would say it is not about the claims that one would make, it is about what proof he has

 

[Tabb]

A. I'm not Muslim. Just believe in honesty
B. What is practiced by many today iis the result of wahhabi influence spreading because of their ties to major oil powers not the Qur'an
C. The "world" you describe also believes in human exploitation (through the marriage of plutocracy & capitalism) & the petrodollar. It believes that sex outside of marriage is okay. It believes that drinking alcohol until you throw up is okay. It defines justice as giving 25 years to life to someone defending themselves but 5 to 10yrs to rapists. (Of course thats to say nothing of the fact that most are oblivious to the way governments are taking away rights because the world views keeping infromed as boring.

Yeah pretty much. Welcome to the big city. All the ravages of freedom. things the American public could change in one election cycle if they are enlightened and motivated.

 

[Sabour]

What proof do you have that Islam isn't just some story written by a group of people 1400 years ago?

Like I previously said, The proof that Quraan is the actual word of God depends on the approach you you to do so.

You can do things logically as the Allah asks you too through out the Quraan.

You can also look up for errors.

You can look up the scientific miracles.

You can read about the life of our prophet. Again I would suggest to read a book called the "First Muslim".

You can also look up at the direct challenges given to the reader of the Quraan.


I recommend for example reading and watching a youtube video about Gary Miller and how he started with an attempt to prove the Quraan wrong and it ended up with him being a muslim.

 

[Sabour]

Hi One-answer,

If you look over the last 1400 years, both Islam and Christianity have had very bloody records. I have heard that BOTH religions have 250-300 MILLION deaths on their hands - EACH!

So groups like ISIS and Boko Haram are not new. This has been going on from the very beginning of Islam.

For 1400 years MANY MUSLIMS have decided that Islam means conquest.

How do you know that you're correct and they're all wrong? Certainly it's extremely easy to defend the
conquest idea when you read the Quran and learn about the life of Muhammad - which was a life of conquest.

Nope.

Islam is something that should be taken as a whole.

The right one is who proves the other wrong from the Quraan.

On the other hand, if Islam is what ISIS thinks, than if you look at the numbers of muslims around the world, than it is a miracle that you are still living.

 

[vskipper]

1.) My position on Islam is the same as it is for all other organized religions. It makes many claims of knowing about the divine, but with such little evidence to back these claims up.

2.) Why does the lack of a Y chromosome make one human being more inferior to another?

3.) I think Islam is wrong because it does not provide evidence that any of what it says is true. It brings up the same circular reasoning that most of the other organized religions use. "My holy book is true because my holy book says that my holy book is true."

I also object to Islam on moral grounds as well. I don't agree with pedophilia. Muhammad was said to have had sex with a prepubescent girl at the age of nine, while in his mid 50's. Here in the United States, he would have been in prison for that sort of behavior.

1. Only since the 70s. Hell, Edgar Allan Poes first wife was his 15 year old cousin. In that time frame it was normal & the age is arguable in the Muslim scholar community. I can give you a phone number if you want.

2. Have you read the entire history of Islam & Muhammad from the point of view of a Muslim...ever?

3. Can you quote one chapter of the Qur'an from heart in english or arabic?

4. Have you read the Qur'an? If so, which translation? Why only one?

 

[vskipper]

Yeah pretty much. Welcome to the big city. All the ravages of freedom. things the American public could change in one election cycle if they are enlightened and motivated.

Try reading Fitzgerald, the Articles of Confederation & the Federal Papers and tell me you still believe that. The U.S. sold its soul to Rockefeller and Carnegie during the depression. Vote republican.get big bankers behind the politicians, vote democrat get big bankers behind the politicians. Its like the worlds longest april fools joke. Vote republican, vote democrat still get screwed....:yes:

 

[vskipper]

Nope.

Islam is something that should be taken as a whole.

The right one is who proves the other wrong from the Quraan.

Agreed so riddle me this:

When astrology, physics, & basic science, in general, are considered one universal truth can be stated. Nothing in the universe is static as everything is moving to one degree or another. Now, having said that I propose thusly that in order for surah al inkhlas to be true God must be static (that means unchanging) otherwise he is like creation. If 33:50 of the Qur'an is simply a mattrer of God seeing man in hardship then he has made a special case for Muhammad as previous prophets faced hardship and were not giving special sanction. Also there is no documented case (Quran or Bible) where the law giver was given a seperate law contrary to that which he gave the followers, except Muhammad. Now, unless I am mistaken & the previous sentence untrue, this shows that God became dynamic thus making surah al inkhlas untrue as he has become like creation.

Not.only does it seem that Muhammad is being given priviledge never granted before but it seems to demonstrate a change in the way God deals with the prophets as based on previous scripture (Qur'an, Torah, or Gospel). So, if God can change the way that he deals with people on a case to case basis doesnt that show favoritism which would make him unjust?