You're going to Heaven, like it or not!

[Ðanisty]

Super Universe, I know you believe all these things and you take that very seriously, but you can't tell me about what I believe and it seems like you're still trying to do that. You state your beliefs and opinions as facts and I promise I am not the only person here who disagrees with some of the things you believe. No two people believe the same.

I'm sorry you grew up in a bad religious cult, but you did make my point. From my perspective, God is the bad parent. I know that's not what you believe, but it is what I believe and I believe it very strongly.

 

[joeboonda]

God is Love, Satan is a liar, deceiver, destroyer, murderer and is out to seek and destroy all he can. You say God is the bad parent, but He is love, therefore he is just. If I love someone and hear they were raped tortured and shot in the head by someone, I would demand justice. God is just and good and holy, and the Father of lights from whom all good things come and in whom is no variableness of turning. Lucifer promises you freedom, but he gives bondage and ultimately destruction and the loss of your soul and eternal punishment in Hell. You have it backward, and I know you think I am wrong, but we will see soon, shan't we, for we will all die, and we will then know. You have the right to worship what or who you will, I respect that, but I am stating my belief as well and hope you respect that as well, and consider it.

 

[c0da]

Satan is a liar, deceiver, destroyer, murderer

Not that I believe in Satan or God, but who has Satan murdered?

Has God not murdered people with the biblical Noah's Arc flood and stuff?

 

[Ody]

God is Love, Satan is a liar, deceiver, destroyer, murderer and is out to seek and destroy all he can. You say God is the bad parent, but He is love, therefore he is just. If I love someone and hear they were raped tortured and shot in the head by someone, I would demand justice. God is just and good and holy, and the Father of lights from whom all good things come and in whom is no variableness of turning. Lucifer promises you freedom, but he gives bondage and ultimately destruction and the loss of your soul and eternal punishment in Hell. You have it backward, and I know you think I am wrong, but we will see soon, shan't we, for we will all die, and we will then know. You have the right to worship what or who you will, I respect that, but I am stating my belief as well and hope you respect that as well, and consider it.

Satan is a tester, like a prosecuter nothing more, once again I am just "saying" my opinion.

 

[Super Universe]

God did not send a flood to kill anyone, the earth changed as it has done for billions of years and the change was well known to the angels and animals. Animals can sense changes in the earth.

Human sensitivity is suppressed so we are unaware of our attachment to the planet and to God. This is so we have a true sense of free will and can live a distinct life.

The earth is actually a living thing and it goes through changes over time, sometimes they are dramatic. Another one is coming.

The angels had Noah build an ark to save as much of the earth life forms as possible.

 

[Ðanisty]

God is Love, Satan is a liar, deceiver, destroyer, murderer and is out to seek and destroy all he can. You say God is the bad parent, but He is love, therefore he is just.

That is your opinion...your belief. If one were to see Lucifer as love, would it not go without saying that God is the opposite of that?

You have it backward, and I know you think I am wrong, but we will see soon, shan't we, for we will all die, and we will then know. You have the right to worship what or who you will, I respect that, but I am stating my belief as well and hope you respect that as well, and consider it.

Don't feign respect for my beliefs. You have only shown that you don't even understand my beliefs, yet you're pretty quick to judge. It is not I that wished to start this debate. I am not the one who insists on having these conversations that lead nowhere. In fact, I avoided to the best of my ability saying what I think of your god (and yet I am still biting my tongue out of respect for the many kind Christian people on these forums who have accepted me for who I am), yet you have no restraint whatsoever in insulting my god...ignorantly at that because I don't even worship Satan. Your armageddon talk doesn't shake my confidence...it doesn't change what I believe. I can see it for exactly what it is...your verbal attempt to strong-arm me into changing my beliefs. I'm not going to consider your beliefs anymore than you are going to consider mine, which we both know isn't going to happen at all.

 

[Bishka]

I tell you the only thing God truly performed was the creation of the universe. God did not cause a flood, the earth changed and the angels had Noah build an ark to SAVE as much life as possible. God did not send fire and brimstone to destroy Soddom and Gomorrah, it was simply struck by a meteor. God did not punish women for Eve's actions, Eve commited adultery so she lost her immortality by judgement of her own kind. God is not so spiteful and petty, those are human faults.

May I ask how she committted adultry? With who?

 

[Super Universe]

Eve committed adultery with a human. She and Adam were here to help the primitive humans evolve but this evolution was supposed to be through teaching not actual inbreeding of her genetics.

That was absolutely forbidden by Eve's kind and she knew it. She was then judged and punished by her own people, not by God.

But Adam and Eves genetics made it into humans, infants suddenly had larger skulls which caused human women pain during childbirth.

Logic supports this theory:
If Adam and Eve were truly the first humans then who would Cane be in fear of killing him?
A serpent talks?
Cain would kill his only brother? Remember there was only the two brothers and Adam and Eve. Eve committed adultery and the child born was Cain. It makes more sense then that Cain and Abel would be against each other.
Cain's wife? From where?

 

[MysticSang'ha]

But Adam and Eves genetics made it into humans, infants suddenly hard larger skulls which caused human women pain during childbirth.

I hate to be a stick in the mud here, but I can assure you, after giving birth twice, that it isn't just the skulls of my babies that caused pain during childbirth. There's a lot more going on that's painful than just feeling their heads.





Peace,
Mystic

 

[Super Universe]

I am not sure of the specific changes that mixing Adamic blood with primitive humans caused.

A larger skull seemed to be the most obvious since an increase in women's pain during childbirth followed.

Certainly there could be other factors. Perhaps new genes coded for excessive contractions?

Also I believe pressure from the baby causes pain so perhaps the entire baby suddenly was bigger?

An improvement on intelligence was likely behind Eve's actions but it's something that is not necessarily related to skull size.

 

[DakotaGypsy]

Lord! Lord! Lord! Urantians!

 

[Super Universe]

Lord! Lord! Lord! Nones!

 

[nutshell]

Eve committed adultery with a human. She and Adam were here to help the primitive humans evolve but this evolution was supposed to be through teaching not actual inbreeding of her genetics.

That was absolutely forbidden by Eve's kind and she knew it. She was then judged and punished by her own people, not by God.

But Adam and Eves genetics made it into humans, infants suddenly had larger skulls which caused human women pain during childbirth.

Logic supports this theory:
If Adam and Eve were truly the first humans then who would Cane be in fear of killing him?
A serpent talks?
Cain would kill his only brother? Remember there was only the two brothers and Adam and Eve. Eve committed adultery and the child born was Cain. It makes more sense then that Cain and Abel would be against each other.
Cain's wife? From where?

Do you have any Biblical support?

What makes you think Cain and Abel were the only ones during this time. I don't remember specific time references being given. They could be but two of many other siblings.

 

[Super Universe]

Part 1

I like to call it logical support.

The OT tells the story of the first humans, Adam and Eve. God placed them in the garden of Eden with the tree of knowledge of good and evil. A serpent talked Eve into eating from this forbidden tree and thus she committed the original sin and caused suffering of women during childbirth.

The illogical points:
Why would God even put the tree there? Come on...
God tempts humans? Doesn't He know we are sinful creatures? After all He created us?
A serpent talks? When have you seen this happen?
Eve and women forever are punished, childbirth is made painful? Still this idea that God is a very angry and vengeful Supreme Being, a human fault.
Cain slew his only brother (the only one to talk to other than Adam and Eve) because God preferred Abel's sacrifice? Again, God being very petty. What would God do with a blood sacrifice?
God converses with humans? Today you would think someone was crazy if that happened.

Standing on it's own merits this story is illogical and unbelievable. Why do people hold onto a ship as it plunges toward the deep?

 

[Super Universe]

Part 2

The Urantia book tells it like this:

Adam and Eve were from a race of immortal sentient beings who came to the earth to teach the primitive humans a basic theory of God. Adam and Eve came here alone but they brought some things with them. One of those things was a tree that they planted in the garden around their home.

Adam and Eve had many children and the primitive humans looked upon them all as gods. This was most disturbing to them and against what they were trying to teach the humans. Over the course of a hundred years Eve became distraught at how little progress the humans were making. She felt that if only the humans had the benefit of her genetics they would be much better off so Eve became pregnant by a human, the leader of a tribe.

But this was specifically forbidden by the rules of her kind and she was judged by them. The child born, Cain, grew and one day fought and killed Abel, the son of Adam and Eve. Cain was afraid that he would be killed because there were many sons and daughters of Adam and Eve and there were many human tribes loyal to Adam and Eve, who they saw as gods. So Cain went away and found a human wife.

To various degrees all races now have Adamic genetics so Adam and Eve are truly the father and mother of the human race as it exists now.

Also this sudden influx of Adamic genes into the primitive humans is what caused women's suffering during childbirth. I expect it has something to do with larger babies and/or perhaps larger skull size but there certainly could be other causes.

Biblical support? Other than what you recognize in the story there is this:
Genesis-6:4 The Nephilim were on the earth in those days—and also afterward—when
the sons of God went to the daughters of men and had children by them. They were the heroes of old, men of renown

Genesis-6:2 The sons of God (Sons and daughters of Adam and Eve) saw the beautiful
women of the human race and took any they wanted as their wives.

Genesis-6:4 In those days, and even afterward, giants (Sons and daughters of Adam and Eve?) lived on the earth.

 

[Ðanisty]

Biblical support? Other than what you recognize in the story there is this:
Genesis-6:4 The Nephilim were on the earth in those days—and also afterward—when
the sons of God went to the daughters of men and had children by them. They were the heroes of old, men of renown

Genesis-6:2 The sons of God (Sons and daughters of Adam and Eve) saw the beautiful
women of the human race and took any they wanted as their wives.

Genesis-6:4 In those days, and even afterward, giants (Sons and daughters of Adam and Eve?) lived on the earth.

From all that I've heard this is in reference to the grigori (watchers).

 

[JillianMarie77]

I hate to be a stick in the mud here, but I can assure you, after giving birth twice, that it isn't just the skulls of my babies that caused pain during childbirth. There's a lot more going on that's painful than just feeling their heads.
Peace,
Mystic

Shoulders come to mind.....

 

[joeboonda]

That is your opinion...your belief. If one were to see Lucifer as love, would it not go without saying that God is the opposite of that?

Don't feign respect for my beliefs. You have only shown that you don't even understand my beliefs, yet you're pretty quick to judge. It is not I that wished to start this debate. I am not the one who insists on having these conversations that lead nowhere. In fact, I avoided to the best of my ability saying what I think of your god (and yet I am still biting my tongue out of respect for the many kind Christian people on these forums who have accepted me for who I am), yet you have no restraint whatsoever in insulting my god...ignorantly at that because I don't even worship Satan. Your armageddon talk doesn't shake my confidence...it doesn't change what I believe. I can see it for exactly what it is...your verbal attempt to strong-arm me into changing my beliefs. I'm not going to consider your beliefs anymore than you are going to consider mine, which we both know isn't going to happen at all.

One thing I respect is our right to free will, to believe what, and in what we want, and I judge no one for anything. I am old, and have learned much and seen and done much, and been involved in many things, I know a little about a lot of things. All I am saying, is that as a Luciferian, a follower of Lucifer, whether or not you believe Lucifer is a real entity, or being, or the same Lucifer who tried to exalt himself above God and wanted to be worshipped as God as in the Bible, or whatever you believe he is, I am just telling you what I believe to be the truth. Lucifer wants us to follow him or his ways, wants to be our God. God, Our Father in Heaven, the God in the Bible, wants us to follow His ways, and loves us. I believe it really is that simple. I know I can't change anyone's beliefs, not me. We each learn all on our own, through our own experiences, studies, etc., and, I believe, the leading of God's Holy Spirit, who is gentle, and will never strong-arm you into loving God as I believe He loves you. I wish you well in your journey of life, and perhaps sometime we may discuss some details of the doctrines you believe. Peace!
Mike

 

[Ðanisty]

I wish you well in your journey of life, and perhaps sometime we may discuss some details of the doctrines you believe. Peace!

I wish you well too. I hope you get everything you want with your religion. It is not for me, but if it is right for you, then I want you to follow it and enjoy it. I only ask that you understand one thing. As misguided as you think I am for my beliefs, I feel that same way about you. We're never going to see eye to eye on this. I've accepted that a long time ago.

 

[ashai]

Hey, Sojourner! :shout This one's for you.

You know that while I do not take a universalist perspective to who will end up in Heaven, my beliefs are that the vast, vast majority of mankind will go there eventually. I would include in this group the worst of the worst, the most depraved individuals the world has ever known. Now I don't believe that their ultimate reward will be the same as that which will be given to those who loved God and their fellow men, who were faithful to Jesus Christ (once they had the opportunity to accept Him), but even so, Heaven for them will still be heir to a glory which "surpasses all understanding."

What I am wondering is what your belief is concerning those individuals who have no desire to go to Heaven, those who literally detest God and want no part of Him. You may say that there won't be any of these people, that once we stand in God's presence, the pull of His love will be so great that no one will be able to resist it. If that would be your initial response, please stop to consider Lucifer. He was well-acquainted with God. He'd felt God's great love and knew Jesus Christ. And yet, look at the choice he made. One third of the host of heaven sided with him. It is altogether possible that there are some who, if given the choice, would actually choose not to spend eternity in God's presence. How does your theology handle their situation?

(All comments welcome. I'm just mostly curious about Sojourner's.)

Ushta Squirt

That's good news:bounce but we do not believe in a heaven or a hell that is like Christianity's or Islam's. To start out they are states of being, that can be experienced partly here and partly beyond and the one call Drugo Demana ,( The Abode of Wrong) is definitely not eternal. We ARE Universalists, but in the long run, as no one who is not Complete ( Haurvatat) will ever cross the Chinvat ( A metaphorical bridge called the Separator) and reach the Best and Highest life ( Also called The Abode of Song, The Abode of Best Mind and The Serene Abode):jiggy:

But keep in mind these are states of being , there is not truly a geographical 'hell' or 'heaven' as the Best Life is spiritual. However, those who want a body can have it as the Universe will be renovated and one can acquire a Final Body. So even the Earh ( Completed and Renovated ) could be our abode.

In any case, I am glad you think every one will reach heaven, I wish most Christian and specially Christian denominations would agree, it would make for a lot less people with guilt hang ups and fear related syndromes.

Ushta te:dan: ,
Ashai