You're going to Heaven, like it or not!

[sojourner]

Again...not a flame...I'm just very interested in understanding where you're coming from here...

So...do you believe in portions of the bible only or do you simply believe that a great percentage of it is symbolic?

I'm not trying to be a pain in the rear and you can let me know if I am...

What is the Bible to you? Summarize what the central focuses are to you? And what themes don't fly with you at all.

(Squirt...again...apologies. If I'm derailing your thread...say the word and I'll post this elsewhere. )

I'm not taking it as a flame. I realize that my viewpoint is out of the ordinary, and maybe even a little threatening. But, hey! You're interested in listening!

I believe that the Bible is inspired work, but written by human beings from unique perspectives, and influenced by factors of time, place and culture, as well as politics.

I do not believe in the infallibility of the Bible. I do not believe that the Bible should be placed in supremacy above God's grace and loving acts.

I think the overriding message of the Bible is God's boundless love for us. Therefore, I always look for the message of inclusivity, grace, acceptance, mercy, love, friendship, compassion whenever I read the Bible -- especially in passages that overtly talk about condemnation and judgment.

I also place great emphasis on my own experiences of God. I find that much of the Bible consists of written accounts of people's experiences with God. I don't believe those experiences began with Genesis and ended with Revelation. I think we still encounter God in significant ways today, and that those encounters have to be taken seriously. If I find that an encounter with God conflicts with what I find written in the Bible, I generally trust my experience over the written Biblical account. Jesus did the same thing! In several places he says, "You have heard it said," or "It is written...but I tell you that..." Jesus eschews scripture for his own experience -- and so do I at times.

Themes about wrath, judgment, condemnation, predestination, hatred, destruction, impatience -- these images just do not ring true in my experience of God. I generally discount them, because they don't paint a true picture of the nature of God, which is unconditional and unbounded love. I also think that there's nothing wrong with assessing and ascribing higher priority to some passages than to others. Those that speak of love always receive higher priority than those that speak of condemnation.

I realize that I'm killing a sacred cow for many, many Christians, and that this is a fairly unpopular stance to take. But it's the only way I can live with myself, knowing what I know and believing what I believe about the nature of God.

 

[Squirt]

Sojourner,

Do you attend a church where you worship with a lot of other people who share this point of view?

 

[sojourner]

So you're saying that we really don't have free will, and that God literally will force the unwilling into Heaven?

I don't like the word "force." I think that God will, in God's own time, entice, convince, invite, etc. Time is on God's side, and so is will and patience.

 

[dawny0826]

It's not a problem. I'm just glad my thoughts are as important to you as everyone else's. I don't say these things to hurt other people either. I'm just saying what is true for me. It is not my intention to get people all riled up or anything. I just don't like to bite my tongue just because my beliefs aren't as popular. I hope people understand that...

It's interesting to learn about the beliefs of others. And maybe I'm intrigued because your religion isn't as popular. I'm glad that I have the opportunity to ask you as opposed to making wrongful assumptions.

Yes and no. My relationship with Lucifer wouldn't be exactly like your relationship with Christ, but there is a relationship there. To me, Lucifer is a brother, a father, a friend, a mentor, a teacher, a lover, and a comrade. He may ask me to do things for him, but it is not because I am beneath him. I am beside him and if something I can do will help him, I do it because I love him. Likewise, he does things for me when I need his help. Overall though, there are probably more similarities than there are differences.

Do you dialogue with him in prayer?

The concept of worship really comes down to how you define it. The traditional idea of worship where one submits to and is subservient to another is not something that is appealing to Lucifer. He's looking for people who will at the very least strive to be his equal. So, in the traditional sense, I do not worship Lucifer. However, if one defines worship as acknowledgement, admiration, and respect, then I would say what I do falls into that category.

Was there a book or anything in particular that kind of nudged you into the direction of Lucifer?

 

[lunamoth]

I think the overriding message of the Bible is God's boundless love for us. Therefore, I always look for the message of inclusivity, grace, acceptance, mercy, love, friendship, compassion whenever I read the Bible -- especially in passages that overtly talk about condemnation and judgment.

And the really interesting thing is, does anyone think that sojourner would lose his salvation for believing this way? And if not, why shouldn't we all believe this way?

lunamoth

 

[dawny0826]

I'm not taking it as a flame. I realize that my viewpoint is out of the ordinary, and maybe even a little threatening. But, hey! You're interested in listening!

I believe that the Bible is inspired work, but written by human beings from unique perspectives, and influenced by factors of time, place and culture, as well as politics.

I do not believe in the infallibility of the Bible. I do not believe that the Bible should be placed in supremacy above God's grace and loving acts.

I think the overriding message of the Bible is God's boundless love for us. Therefore, I always look for the message of inclusivity, grace, acceptance, mercy, love, friendship, compassion whenever I read the Bible -- especially in passages that overtly talk about condemnation and judgment.

I also place great emphasis on my own experiences of God. I find that much of the Bible consists of written accounts of people's experiences with God. I don't believe those experiences began with Genesis and ended with Revelation. I think we still encounter God in significant ways today, and that those encounters have to be taken seriously. If I find that an encounter with God conflicts with what I find written in the Bible, I generally trust my experience over the written Biblical account. Jesus did the same thing! In several places he says, "You have heard it said," or "It is written...but I tell you that..." Jesus eschews scripture for his own experience -- and so do I at times.

Themes about wrath, judgment, condemnation, predestination, hatred, destruction, impatience -- these images just do not ring true in my experience of God. I generally discount them, because they don't paint a true picture of the nature of God, which is unconditional and unbounded love. I also think that there's nothing wrong with assessing and ascribing higher priority to some passages than to others. Those that speak of love always receive higher priority than those that speak of condemnation.

I realize that I'm killing a sacred cow for many, many Christians, and that this is a fairly unpopular stance to take. But it's the only way I can live with myself, knowing what I know and believing what I believe about the nature of God.

You probably have already figured out a couple things about me...

#1) I use the word "but" a lot

and

#2) I do accept the Bible as the infallible Word of God. I agree completely with you that humans wrote the books within it and I know that there are "places" throughout the bible where culture, politics and such does need to be taken into consideration. I believe the Bible as a whole is God's Living Word...to guide and direct us. So, my interpretations tend to be pretty literal. I almost view the Bible as spirit.

Although I don't discount the themes of judgement, wrath, chastisement and so on and so forth...I too view God's love and grace as the central focuses of the Bible.

I enjoy a good debate...mostly because I do have the chance to learn and to gain a better understanding of where others are coming from. You certainly can't sell yourself out and should stand firm on what you believe and what works for you.

Despite the clashes in viewpoints...God's Love and Grace are truths that we can both stand upon.

 

[Ðanisty]

Themes about wrath, judgment, condemnation, predestination, hatred, destruction, impatience -- these images just do not ring true in my experience of God. I generally discount them, because they don't paint a true picture of the nature of God, which is unconditional and unbounded love.

I see things pretty much in the opposite way that you do. For me, generosity, gentleness, love, etc. do not ring true in my experience of God. I feel that the things you describe (wrath, judgment, condemnation, predestination, hatred, destruction and impatience) paint a perfect picture of God. We will, of course, have to agree to disagree. Aside from arguing until we both turn blue in the face (obviously in another thread because that would be off-topic here), there is nothing else we can do.

Do you dialogue with him in prayer?

Yes, quite frequently actually.

Was there a book or anything in particular that kind of nudged you into the direction of Lucifer?

I feel that I have always been on this path. I would have to say that I never really chose Lucifer. He chose me. I may not have always been aware of his presence, but that doesn't mean he wasn't there. I acknowledged his presence 3 years ago when I experienced him personally.

 

[dawny0826]

And the really interesting thing is, does anyone think that sojourner would lose his salvation for believing this way? And if not, why shouldn't we all believe this way?

lunamoth

I don't think sojourner would lose his salvation for believing this way...because I have a hunch that Christ is in the driver's seat in his life...

I can't mirror all of his thoughts because I believe that hell and chastisement and condemnation and so on and so forth are very real and shouldn't be ignored.

For the believer...hell is a non issue but for the non-believer, according to the scripture...it's a very real reality to avoid...and if we, as the Body of Christ are to get out and spread the gospel...people need to know of the consequences for turning away from God and not accepting the salvation that we have in Christ.

 

[dawny0826]

I feel that I have always been on this path. I would have to say that I never really chose Lucifer. He chose me. I may not have always been aware of his presence, but that doesn't mean he wasn't there. I acknowledged his presence 3 years ago when I experienced him personally.

If you don't want to expound...I understand...

I'd be interested in learning about your experiences. If you wanted to share either here or elsewhere...I'd love to "hear" you out.

(And Squirt...say the words...and I'll take a hike...I've got a knack for running OT:sorry1: )

 

[Squirt]

And the really interesting thing is, does anyone think that sojourner would lose his salvation for believing this way? And if not, why shouldn't we all believe this way?

lunamoth

Well, Sojourner is definitely at one far end of the scale, and I find his viewpoint a whole lot more (a)accurate and (b)merciful than the opposite one (the one that says, "If you don't believe exactly as I do, you're going to pay for it for eternity." I certainly don't believe anybody's going to lose their salvation because of an error in judgment. (I'm phrasing it that way because I do personally see this point of view as erroneous.) I don't think any of us is in the position to be judging any of the rest of us. But I do very strongly believe that God has given us our free agency, the right to choose for ourselves. I believe that He will do everything possible to entreat us to come to Him, and I believe that the vast majority of His children will eventually make that decision (to one extent or another). I actually see Hell as being rather sparsely populated, but I do believe that a few people will actually make the decision to spend eternity as far from God as possible -- however difficult that may be for most of us to believe. And I believe that, precisely because God loves us, He will allow us that choice.

 

[sojourner]

Sojourner,

Do you attend a church where you worship with a lot of other people who share this point of view?

My denomination has a number of universalists (little "u"), and the seminaries are mostly liberal in that way, but my home church is quite middle of the road. I have to be very careful about what I say, not only for my own sake, but, more importantly, for the sake of the parishioners. I don't want to damage their faith in any way! It's kind of lonely, but I'm accepting enough that I can find common ground with them.

 

[Squirt]

(And Squirt...say the words...and I'll take a hike...I've got a knack for running OT:sorry1: )

Heck no! I'm just so happy to have people post on one of my threads for a change that I don't even care where this thread goes. I got Sojourner's answer which was the main thing I was looking for.

Now, if somebody will just give me frubals. I can't go to bed without some and I've been posting all day in vain!

 

[sojourner]

You probably have already figured out a couple things about me...

#1) I use the word "but" a lot

and

#2) I do accept the Bible as the infallible Word of God. I agree completely with you that humans wrote the books within it and I know that there are "places" throughout the bible where culture, politics and such does need to be taken into consideration. I believe the Bible as a whole is God's Living Word...to guide and direct us. So, my interpretations tend to be pretty literal. I almost view the Bible as spirit.

Although I don't discount the themes of judgement, wrath, chastisement and so on and so forth...I too view God's love and grace as the central focuses of the Bible.

I enjoy a good debate...mostly because I do have the chance to learn and to gain a better understanding of where others are coming from. You certainly can't sell yourself out and should stand firm on what you believe and what works for you.

Despite the clashes in viewpoints...God's Love and Grace are truths that we can both stand upon.

And I'm quite happy to find unity in that!:jam:

 

[dawny0826]

Heck no! I'm just so happy to have people post on one of my threads for a change that I don't even care where this thread goes. I got Sojourner's answer which was the main thing I was looking for.

Now, if somebody will just give me frubals. I can't go to bed without some and I've been posting all day in vain!

I wanted to frubal you but I can't until tomorrow. I've really enjoyed your thread. :bow:

PM me tomorrow with a reminder...if you don't have your frubals from me.:biglaugh:

 

[Squirt]

Danisty,

Thank you! I was getting so tired. Goodnight all.

 

[sojourner]

Heck no! I'm just so happy to have people post on one of my threads for a change that I don't even care where this thread goes. I got Sojourner's answer which was the main thing I was looking for.

Now, if somebody will just give me frubals. I can't go to bed without some and I've been posting all day in vain!

in absentia frubals be on your head!

 

[sojourner]

I see things pretty much in the opposite way that you do. For me, generosity, gentleness, love, etc. do not ring true in my experience of God. I feel that the things you describe (wrath, judgment, condemnation, predestination, hatred, destruction and impatience) paint a perfect picture of God. We will, of course, have to agree to disagree. Aside from arguing until we both turn blue in the face (obviously in another thread because that would be off-topic here), there is nothing else we can do.

You wouldn't be the first person I know that feels that way! I'm curious...would you share how you came to that conclusion about God, since we are at opposite ends of that spectrum?

 

[Ðanisty]

If you don't want to expound...I understand...

It's not that I don't want to expound. It's just that I don't usually get much more than skepticism at best and ridicule at worst. It gets old considering my story isn't any more unlikely than any Christian's story. I suppose it can't hurt to give it another try though.

Let me give some background for this. Where I worked three years ago, I always left after dark and I had to drive 45 minutes to get home. Because I lived in a very rural area outside of Savannah, most of the trip is on roads that don't even have street lights so it's very dark. Now, living in a rural area outside of town, there aren't a lot of people travelling at 9:30 at night. On top of that, I have a phobia of tornados and I don't see well on dark roads when it's raining at night.

On one particular night there was a tornado watch (which already got me jumpy) and very heavy rain...heavier than normal. I could only see about 3 feet in front of my car (not nearly enough to see the tail-lights of another car in front of me. In fact, I didn't know if there was another car in front of me or not). I got so scared I started hyperventilating, and being a person who is not Christian, I prayed for help from anyone who would offer it to me because I fully believed I was going to put my car in a 6 ft. ditch filled to the brim with rainwater. After my prayer to nobody in particular, the car in front of me turned on their emergency lights (which I could see...I never realized how much brigher they are then regular lights). They also turned down every road I needed to turn down to get to my house allowing me to follow them all the way home. I realized my prayer was answered (a first for me) and I prayed again to thank them and find out who it was. He told me that I already knew who he was...that I only needed to search my soul for the truth. That's what I did and I realized that he answered my prayer in the most obvious way possible.

You wouldn't be the first person I know that feels that way! I'm curious...would you share how you came to that conclusion about God, since we are at opposite ends of that spectrum?

Honestly, I got most of it from the bible. I can give more details if you want, but I don't know what good it would do. Experience has shown me that Christians are pretty much unable to get my perspective and vice versa.

 

[dawny0826]

It's not that I don't want to expound. It's just that I don't usually get much more than skepticism at best and ridicule at worst. It gets old considering my story isn't any more unlikely than any Christian's story. I suppose it can't hurt to give it another try though.

I don't blame you for tiring of ridicule and skepticism.

Let me give some background for this. Where I worked three years ago, I always left after dark and I had to drive 45 minutes to get home. Because I lived in a very rural area outside of Savannah, most of the trip is on roads that don't even have street lights so it's very dark. Now, living in a rural area outside of town, there aren't a lot of people travelling at 9:30 at night. On top of that, I have a phobia of tornados and I don't see well on dark roads when it's raining at night.

On one particular night there was a tornado watch (which already got me jumpy) and very heavy rain...heavier than normal. I could only see about 3 feet in front of my car (not nearly enough to see the tail-lights of another car in front of me. In fact, I didn't know if there was another car in front of me or not). I got so scared I started hyperventilating, and being a person who is not Christian, I prayed for help from anyone who would offer it to me because I fully believed I was going to put my car in a 6 ft. ditch filled to the brim with rainwater. After my prayer to nobody in particular, the car in front of me turned on their emergency lights (which I could see...I never realized how much brigher they are then regular lights). They also turned down every road I needed to turn down to get to my house allowing me to follow them all the way home. I realized my prayer was answered (a first for me) and I prayed again to thank them and find out who it was. He told me that I already knew who he was...that I only needed to search my soul for the truth. That's what I did and I realized that he answered my prayer in the most obvious way possible.

Honestly, I got most of it from the bible. I can give more details if you want, but I don't know what good it would do. Experience has shown me that Christians are pretty much unable to get my perspective and vice versa.

Danisty, thanks for sharing.

I feel fortunate to meet people like yourself. I lived a great portion of my life with inaccurate images of people based upon my wrongful assumptions of who they are as individuals and what they believe in.

I now know what Luciferianism is because you took the time to post links and talk about it. I no longer have false images of what a Luciferian believes.

Even though we kind of hang out on opposite sides of the religious spectrum...as human beings...there's common ground...I too am a girl terrifed of tornadoes and I prayed out loud once in my car (dry weather) and recieved an answer...my life was never the same.

I'm happy that you're here and want you to know that you're an asset to RF.

 

[Judgement Day]

Oh my gosh! That is so similar to my belief! Is this your own point of view? I don't recall ever hearing it expressed this way by a Muslim before.

The difference it that in an Islamic point of view, we are responsible for our own deeds, so as I said before, not all will go straightaway to heaven, but will first have to pay for their own sins at the cost of hell. This is justice in Islam.

Most of the time you will this verse quoted:

"And whoever seeks a religion other than Islam, it will never be accepted of him, and in the Hereafter he will be one of the losers". (Quran 3:85)

The verse above refers to people who already know the truth but refuse to believe in it, so that people who seeks other religion than Islam will never be accepted. Regarding other believers that I mentioned before that will go to heaven, God's mercy is unbelievably endless:

Volume 9, Book 93, Number 518:
Narrated Abu Huraira:
The Prophet said, "When Allah had finished His creation, He wrote over his Throne: 'My Mercy preceded My Anger.'
(Sahih Bukhari)

So if God wants to forgive a Christian or a Jew or an Atheist, it is for God to decide. After all, we are just humans with lots of errors. But then again, we should not be ignorant. God is more likely to forgive someone who seeks for truth than someone who is just completely ignorant or even acting repulsive to the truth.

So then why be a Muslim? :

Volume 9, Book 93, Number 587:
Narrated Abu Huraira:
Allah's Apostle said, "We (Muslims) are the last (to come) but will be the foremost on the Day of Resurrection." The narrators of this Hadith said: Allah said (to man), 'Spend (in charity), for then I will compensate you (generously).' "
(Sahih Bukhari)

Anything wrong comes from me, and anything right, comes from Allah.