ZIONIST Grip on American Films

[McBell]

Well, I was adding to what you were saying, not refuting what you were saying.

hmmm.
Ok, after re-reading it, I can see that.

 

[arimoff]

Personally, it would make more sense to me, that God nothing had to do with Jews surviving the aristocracies and genocides, instead, it was the actual Jews who survided, fought against, and succeeded despite the history that really deserve all the credit, not God.

I don't understand why you want to give credit for what your 'ancestors' did, to God, when it's obviously what your 'ancestors' did had less to do with God, and more to due with them.

Do you honestly think that 20 million people who are scattered through out the Continent with out an army to defend them selfs can survive? No other peoples survived they all gave in, they assimilated, so why did we survive? Especially when you take in to account the tradition that is past down from father to son since day one that carries a promise from G-D that you will be persecuted but will survive who else should I thank for it? What are the odds?

I' am not arguing maybe for someone looking from the side on this it is not enough, but to someone like me, who was born in the former USSR a hostile territory for Jews and have experienced that hate on my own shoulders and later to see that promise come true, why shouldn't I thank G-D for it?

 

[dust1n]

Do you honestly think that 20 million people who are scattered through out the Continent with out an army to defend them selfs can survive?

Well they did, so to answer your question, yes. I fail to see how God had anything to do with it. It's pretty hard to wipe out 20 million people off the face of the planet. Granted people survived the Rwandan genocide, I'm not inclined to think that God saved them either.

No other peoples survived they all gave in, they assimilated, so why did we survive? Especially when you take in to account the tradition that is past down from father to son since day one that carries a promise from G-D that you will be persecuted but will survive who else should I thank for it? What are the odds?

Um... Native American's survived genocide, Ukrainians survived genocide, Rwandans survived genocide. The fact that a tradition says that it will happen is going to give people hope, and attempt to act it out accordingly. That doesn't mean the book is factual, it just means the book gave people hope to survive.

I am not arguing maybe for someone looking from the side on this it is not enough, but to someone like me, who was born in the former USSR a hostile territory for Jews and have experienced that hate on my own shoulders and later to see that promise come true, why shouldn't I thank G-D for it?

Because God didn't physically come down an alter any part of the physical realm, your ancestors did. So why not give the credit to your ancestors (as well as the Western powers who arm Israel with weapons and nukes and money, etc.)

 

[painted wolf]

Do you honestly think that 20 million people who are scattered through out the Continent with out an army to defend them selfs can survive? No other peoples survived they all gave in, they assimilated, so why did we survive? Especially when you take in to account the tradition that is past down from father to son since day one that carries a promise from G-D that you will be persecuted but will survive who else should I thank for it? What are the odds?

Oi... We are still here thanks.. indeed some Nations, like the Seminole still haven't signed a peace treaty yet (it's still a civil cease-fire).
We still have as much of our culture and so on as the Jews still have. Creator has been looking after us for as long and just as much as for you.

as for the OP... Native Americans have been the standard 'bad guys' for far longer than any other ethnic group. It's only recently that First Nations people have been given 'good guy' roles in any regular frequency.
Let's not forget the way African Americans have been/still are being portrayed.
So, you're the spook-du-jour.... doesn't make it a conspiracy.

wa:do

 

[rojse]

Is this thread still about film?

Do I get to blame the ZIONISTS for American Pie 1 through x and every stupid uncut DVD release of stupid movies?

Is their grip Kung Fu or more Wet Noodle?

What? You don't like "American Pie: Let's Get Naked and Do Stupid Things For Cheap Laughs?"

 

[Perfect Circle]

Do you honestly think that 20 million people who are scattered through out the Continent with out an army to defend them selfs can survive? No other peoples survived they all gave in, they assimilated, so why did we survive? Especially when you take in to account the tradition that is past down from father to son since day one that carries a promise from G-D that you will be persecuted but will survive who else should I thank for it? What are the odds?

I' am not arguing maybe for someone looking from the side on this it is not enough, but to someone like me, who was born in the former USSR a hostile territory for Jews and have experienced that hate on my own shoulders and later to see that promise come true, why shouldn't I thank G-D for it?

You're right... As the only people to survive a genocidal attempt on your race/culture, you stand alone.

Oh.. but you might want to contact the Native Americans, Armenians, Herero, Rwandan, Kurdish, and Bosnian people and see how they feel about it. I'm pretty sure they feel like they deserve that title too.

 

[arimoff]

Well they did, so to answer your question, yes. I fail to see how God had anything to do with it. It's pretty hard to wipe out 20 million people off the face of the planet. Granted people survived the Rwandan genocide, I'm not inclined to think that God saved them either.



Um... Native American's survived genocide, Ukrainians survived genocide, Rwandans survived genocide. The fact that a tradition says that it will happen is going to give people hope, and attempt to act it out accordingly. That doesn't mean the book is factual, it just means the book gave people hope to survive.

Because God didn't physically come down an alter any part of the physical realm, your ancestors did. So why not give the credit to your ancestors (as well as the Western powers who arm Israel with weapons and nukes and money, etc.)

We can have a discussion but I think it deserves its own thread.

 

[Gabethewiking]

Do you honestly think that 20 million people who are scattered through out the Continent with out an army to defend them selfs can survive? No other peoples survived they all gave in, they assimilated, so why did we survive? Especially when you take in to account the tradition that is past down from father to son since day one that carries a promise from G-D that you will be persecuted but will survive who else should I thank for it? What are the odds?

I' am not arguing maybe for someone looking from the side on this it is not enough, but to someone like me, who was born in the former USSR a hostile territory for Jews and have experienced that hate on my own shoulders and later to see that promise come true, why shouldn't I thank G-D for it?

Horrible, they assimilated, that is just horrible, how could they become part of the culture and society they lived in, how could they, but the Jews did not, the Jewish Race managed and fight that disgusting thing known as assimilation, you must be PROUD of being of Jewish Blood and not, say, mine or others. A Unique Wonderful Race living amongst horrible disgusting Creatures, such as Americans, British or Chinese.

Your words says it all. I feel no need to talk to you anymore, I want to take a shower after reading your last posts.

 

[arimoff]

Horrible, they assimilated, that is just horrible, how could they become part of the culture and society they lived in, how could they, but the Jews did not, the Jewish Race managed and fight that disgusting thing known as assimilation, you must be PROUD of being of Jewish Blood and not, say, mine or others. A Unique Wonderful Race living amongst horrible disgusting Creatures, such as Americans, British or Chinese.

Your words says it all. I feel no need to talk to you anymore, I want to take a shower after reading your last posts.

You can think what you want, who hates who who doesn't hate who, who think they are better who thinks not. I couldn't care less but if we don't want to assimilate we have every right not to, and in no way anti-Semites like you can justify that as unfair.

but numbers speak for them selfs who hates who, Jewish Nobel Prize Winners

and this is without going in to more details how much have Jews done good for the world, but you go enjoy your early shower.

 

[Caladan]

You can think what you want, who hates who who doesn't hate who, who think they are better who thinks not. I couldn't care less but if we don't want to assimilate we have every right not to, and in no way anti-Semites like you can justify that as unfair.

The 1990 National Jewish Population Survey reported an intermarriage rate of 52 percent among American Jews.

 

[Perfect Circle]

[snip]..and in no way anti-Semites like you can justify that as unfair.

 

[IF_u_knew]

Horrible, they assimilated, that is just horrible, how could they become part of the culture and society they lived in, how could they, but the Jews did not, the Jewish Race managed and fight that disgusting thing known as assimilation, you must be PROUD of being of Jewish Blood and not, say, mine or others. A Unique Wonderful Race living amongst horrible disgusting Creatures, such as Americans, British or Chinese.

Your words says it all. I feel no need to talk to you anymore, I want to take a shower after reading your last posts.

Wow! I did not take his words to mean what you apparently have ... that being, as an insult. HOWEVER, I do understand why it is you have taken them that way as I used to as well. That is not, though, the fault of the Jews. There is a perception amongst a greater part of the western world that the Jewish feel they are better than anyone else. I think mostly this has to do with how it is the Christians portray them (power of suggestion is VERY much a great power) as well as the Arab World using as pawns the Palestinian People to demonize Israel and gain sympathy from the world in their agenda to wipe Israel off the map. I think that most forget where it is the Jews have been and what it is they have been through as well as many lack the intelligence to rise above these opinions (not facts) of the Jews given of others who have agenda for saying it when it comes to discussing with a Jew. What it is they have been through has created for this intelligent People a bond that should and does come first and foremost for one another in their hearts. But take the time to hear the Jewish speak of their own ways, their own words, etc and you will find that they are and always have been willing to listen and hear the perspective of others.

I do not know of another People, as a whole, who have been more of the activitists for minorities than the Jewish People. I do not know of a People that has been honest with their ownselves as well as the rest of the world as has *this* People. I mean, read the Tanach ... not through religious goggles, but through the eyes of your own humanity and you will find so much wisdom which comes from a place that you your ownself will be able to relate. The Christian Bible teaches us to point out the faults (or even what is only ever perceived in their minds as faults) of others, even to the point of condemning others (Paul's teachings at least) and even the Qur'an does close to the same ... it denies the freedom to learn through experience (both for yourselves and for others). Yet, in the Tanach, which the Jewish People wrote, they point the fingers AT THEIR OWNSELVES when *they* are doing wrong. And the major difference is that there is the allowance in the Laws of Moses to learn through experience, but in wisdom <--- and the laws were NEVER forced on mankind and not even on this People. They consented to them for the purpose to learn the Law of God (which is not the Laws given of Moses, only that was a tool used for understanding ... the Law of God is cause and effect). Never have I heard any Jewish Person, even the ultra Orthodox, condemn the rest of the world to hell for not obeying what they accepted and neither have I seen them to even encourage us to accept the ways that they have chosen. One of the main reasons that conversion to Judaism is so difficult is not because they believe themselves to be better than anyone else, but they do that because when one makes a commitment, they should do it with their whole heart. Then, for the sake of those who THINK they want to convert to Judaism, they are taught the ins and outs of it before they are allowed to accept ... this is for the sake of not only the Jewish, but for those who might realize that Judaism is not their cup of tea. They, the Jewish People, are only ever supportive and kind to mankind in general, as we have been created (that is, as humans who are being) .. which I find to be one of the most beautiful parts about their religion and their People.


The Jewish, secular .. religious ... and in between, have shown themselves better than any other Peoples on earth to 1) not blame others (even through lies, distortions, and manipulations), 2) that *I* is first responsible for *I* and 3) to see individuals as what they are ... part of God's creation, each being special in their own right.

That is something that indeed, no other minorities, have .. as the whole People .. done for the world. Most minorities would rather stay in their oppression and/or continue to cry out for pity to expect the rest of the world to rescue them AND/OR close themselves off completely from the world. This People used their OWN Mind to make out a plan for bringing their People back together, they had it approved by those who had any say so over the land, and then .. they have defended it fairly. Let's not be so insecure to let petty jealousies as well as that of another people's greed blind us from being rational and fair. Let us give credit where credit IS due as well as let us be careful to not let our own insecurities speak in such discussions that are of importance to the whole of the world ... people are listening and reading .. and people tend to form their opinions on the opinions of others. Thus, we shoulder responsibility if we are giving off the wrong impression of those we are choosing to give our opinion of in these discussions. We should take care to consider what it is we are saying.

What you took as an offense speaks to me personally of your own deep seeded issues against the Jewish People ... though you might not be aware of it your ownself. To escape such chains on one's own mind, you should remember that NONE of us will escape subjectivity .. then, put yourselves into the shoes of those you would criticize. That you haven't yet, well .. it is affecting your ability to see the bigger picture as well as it is the reason why so many on here miss what it is that arimoff is trying to get across. That he will be fruitless in his attempts on this thread have less to do with his religious point of view and more to do with others being unwilling to understand where it is he has come from. :rainbow1:

Sorry for going off topic, but I do know what it is to be offended by something that later I had to seek my own mind to find out if I had right to be offended. Often, I find that I don't have a valid reason to be such, and so that is when I look around me. Propaganda isn't about hidden symbols and esoteric meanings ... you will know what is propaganda by what it is that is blatantly being put in front of you the most. Example: the intended message of this thread as well as Israel being demonized .. that is the Propaganda that is being drilled into our heads here in America.

"All propaganda has to be popular and has to accommodate itself to the comprehension of the least intelligent of those whom it seeks to reach." Adolf Hitler And so, God forbid, history could indeed repeat itself.

 

[.lava]

Yet, in the Tanach, which the Jewish People wrote, they point the fingers AT THEIR OWNSELVES when *they* are doing wrong.

so far i see till now in this thread, they point fingers to themselves just to praise themselves. i mean, like, "Jew is the proof of God". do they ever talk about their mistakes? how's that work? over 300 children died last year because of Israeli bombs and all i hear was something like this; "Hamas is responsible of WHAT WE DID"


.

 

[dust1n]

We can have a discussion but I think it deserves its own thread.

We could, or we could just use this thread. Either way...

 

[dust1n]

Wow! I did not take his words to mean what you apparently have ... that being, as an insult. HOWEVER, I do understand why it is you have taken them that way as I used to as well. That is not, though, the fault of the Jews. There is a perception amongst a greater part of the western world that the Jewish feel they are better than anyone else. I think mostly this has to do with how it is the Christians portray them (power of suggestion is VERY much a great power) as well as the Arab World using as pawns the Palestinian People to demonize Israel and gain sympathy from the world in their agenda to wipe Israel off the map.

(...small snip...)

But take the time to hear the Jewish speak of their own ways, their own words, etc and you will find that they are and always have been willing to listen and hear the perspective of others.

Keep ignoring my posts.

If someone comments on a Jew who is suggesting that Jews are a 'special' race, does not imply that person thinks all Jews think of themselves in this way. You are making correlations based off conversations one person is having with one Jew, and this one particular Jew is stating things that suggest Jews are a special race, granted by God, and that they are only people to survive Holocaust. If you bias against anything other than Jews at this point has become it apparently, it would be now.

I will grant you this; Christians are responsible for Jewish travesties. So they took lands that had been under the control of Arabs for centuries and centuries to place Jews there. I can't argue there are plenty of Arabs who want Israel wiped off the map (which I disagree with), but you can't argue Christians were the ones who wanted Jews wiped off the face of the planet; or at least out of their countries.

I do not know of another People, as a whole, who have been more of the activitists for minorities than the Jewish People.

Absurd claim number 1.

I do not know of a People that has been honest with their ownselves as well as the rest of the world as has *this* People. I mean, read the Tanach ... not through religious goggles, but through the eyes of your own humanity and you will find so much wisdom which comes from a place that you your ownself will be able to relate.

Wow, non-Jews are dishonest with themselves on a whole, in comparison to Jews?

The Christian Bible teaches us to point out the faults (or even what is only ever perceived in their minds as faults) of others, even to the point of condemning others (Paul's teachings at least) and even the Qur'an does close to the same ... it denies the freedom to learn through experience (both for yourselves and for others). Yet, in the Tanach, which the Jewish People wrote, they point the fingers AT THEIR OWNSELVES when *they* are doing wrong.

You know there are people who aren't Christian, Jewish or Muslim, correct? Even Jews.

And the major difference is that there is the allowance in the Laws of Moses to learn through experience, but in wisdom <--- and the laws were NEVER forced on mankind and not even on this People. They consented to them for the purpose to learn the Law of God (which is not the Laws given of Moses, only that was a tool used for understanding ... the Law of God is cause and effect). Never have I heard any Jewish Person, even the ultra Orthodox, condemn the rest of the world to hell for not obeying what they accepted and neither have I seen them to even encourage us to accept the ways that they have chosen.One of the main reasons that conversion to Judaism is so difficult is not because they believe themselves to be better than anyone else, but they do that because when one makes a commitment, they should do it with their whole heart. Then, for the sake of those who THINK they want to convert to Judaism, they are taught the ins and outs of it before they are allowed to accept ... this is for the sake of not only the Jewish, but for those who might realize that Judaism is not their cup of tea. They, the Jewish People, are only ever supportive and kind to mankind in general, as we have been created (that is, as humans who are being) .. which I find to be one of the most beautiful parts about their religion and their People.

Wow, I guess that means we can ignore things like this:

Israel harvested organs without permission, officials say - CNN.com

The Jewish, secular .. religious ... and in between, have shown themselves better than any other Peoples on earth to 1) not blame others (even through lies, distortions, and manipulations), 2) that *I* is first responsible for *I* and 3) to see individuals as what they are ... part of God's creation, each being special in their own right.

Yeah.. no other people's or philosophy or religion can compare with the first two things. Of course, it seems like any religion who claims that everything is their God's creation are going to have an unfair filter to see 'individuals as what they are'.

That is something that indeed, no other minorities, have .. as the whole People .. done for the world. Most minorities would rather stay in their oppression and/or continue to cry out for pity to expect the rest of the world to rescue them AND/OR close themselves off completely from the world.

Absurd claim number 2. Everything about history suggests otherwise. The main difference is I'm seeing, is that Western powers did not grant any other minority the right to exist separately. Again, you keep ignoring the fact that Israel would not have been possible at the time it was created, had it not been for Western Powers, something no other minority has ever been given. This doesn't seem to important to you though, which I guess makes it easier for you to claim that 'most minorities would rather stay in their oppression' or 'continue to cry out for pity to expect the rest of the world to rescue them'. I don't even know where you are getting 'close themselves off completely from the world' from.

This People used their OWN Mind to make out a plan for bringing their People back together, they had it approved by those who had any say so over the land, and then .. they have defended it fairly.

Whoa?! Jews have a single mind in which they all communicate with one another; think, feel, and believe the same thing?!

Let's not be so insecure to let petty jealousies as well as that of another people's greed blind us from being rational and fair.

Relevant How?

Let us give credit where credit IS due as well as let us be careful to not let our own insecurities speak in such discussions that are of importance to the whole of the world ... people are listening and reading .. and people tend to form their opinions on the opinions of others.

The main argument in which you are replying to is that a particular Jew was claiming God should be credited for the creation of Israel and the survival of Jews during genocide (after claiming this was the first time this had happened), and non-Jews were claiming that the credit should go to the actual Jews.

Thus, we shoulder responsibility if we are giving off the wrong impression of those we are choosing to give our opinion of in these discussions. We should take care to consider what it is we are saying.

And you should take care to consider what it is other people are saying.

What you took as an offense speaks to me personally of your own deep seeded issues against the Jewish People ... though you might not be aware of it your ownself. To escape such chains on one's own mind, you should remember that NONE of us will escape subjectivity .. then, put yourselves into the shoes of those you would criticize. That you haven't yet, well .. it is affecting your ability to see the bigger picture as well as it is the reason why so many on here miss what it is that arimoff is trying to get across. That he will be fruitless in his attempts on this thread have less to do with his religious point of view and more to do with others being unwilling to understand where it is he has come from. :rainbow1:

Absurd claim number 3.

Sorry for going off topic, but I do know what it is to be offended by something that later I had to seek my own mind to find out if I had right to be offended.

Oh no, by all means go ahead. You always have time to post your 'off-topic' rants instead of actually responding to someone invalidating your claims.

Often, I find that I don't have a valid reason to be such, and so that is when I look around me. Propaganda isn't about hidden symbols and esoteric meanings ... you will know what is propaganda by what it is that is blatantly being put in front of you the most. Example: the intended message of this thread as well as Israel being demonized .. that is the Propaganda that is being drilled into our heads here in America.

OH NO, Aymen's propaganda has unwilling changed my view of Jewish people! And not only that, I should not attempt to see what his point is at all in regards to pro-Israel propaganda, but rather just to see the anti-Israel propaganda!

"All propaganda has to be popular and has to accommodate itself to the comprehension of the least intelligent of those whom it seeks to reach." Adolf Hitler

And so, God forbid, history could indeed repeat itself.

Well I guess since we are adding a pool of 'relevant' Hitler quotes.

Humanitarianism is the expression of stupidity and cowardice.
- Hitler

 

[dust1n]

so far i see till now in this thread, they point fingers to themselves just to praise themselves. i mean, like, "Jew is the proof of God". do they ever talk about their mistakes? how's that work? over 300 children died last year because of Israeli bombs and all i hear was something like this; "Hamas is responsible of WHAT WE DID"


.

No, quit it .lava. Obviously the creation of Israel has been an immaculate creation, void of all 'bad' (especially for Arabs, who are greedy and jealous!). IF anything those 300 children died of Israeli bombs, because they didn't believe those Israeli bombs were justified in the name of Israel.

 

[Gabethewiking]

Keep ignoring my posts.

If someone comments on a Jew who is suggesting that Jews are a 'special' race, does not imply that person thinks all Jews think of themselves in this way. You are making correlations based off conversations one person is having with one Jew, and this one particular Jew is stating things that suggest Jews are a special race, granted by God, and that they are only people to survive Holocaust. If you bias against anything other than Jews at this point has become it apparently, it would be now.

I will grant you this; Christians are responsible for Jewish travesties. So they took lands that had been under the control of Arabs for centuries and centuries to place Jews there. I can't argue there are plenty of Arabs who want Israel wiped off the map (which I disagree with), but you can't argue Christians were the ones who wanted Jews wiped off the face of the planet; or at least out of their countries.

Absurd claim number 1.

Wow, non-Jews are dishonest with themselves on a whole, in comparison to Jews?

You know there are people who aren't Christian, Jewish or Muslim, correct? Even Jews.


Wow, I guess that means we can ignore things like this:

Israel harvested organs without permission, officials say - CNN.com


Yeah.. no other people's or philosophy or religion can compare with the first two things. Of course, it seems like any religion who claims that everything is their God's creation are going to have an unfair filter to see 'individuals as what they are'.

Absurd claim number 2. Everything about history suggests otherwise. The main difference is I'm seeing, is that Western powers did not grant any other minority the right to exist separately. Again, you keep ignoring the fact that Israel would not have been possible at the time it was created, had it not been for Western Powers, something no other minority has ever been given. This doesn't seem to important to you though, which I guess makes it easier for you to claim that 'most minorities would rather stay in their oppression' or 'continue to cry out for pity to expect the rest of the world to rescue them'. I don't even know where you are getting 'close themselves off completely from the world' from.

Whoa?! Jews have a single mind in which they all communicate with one another; think, feel, and believe the same thing?!

Relevant How?

The main argument in which you are replying to is that a particular Jew was claiming God should be credited for the creation of Israel and the survival of Jews during genocide (after claiming this was the first time this had happened), and non-Jews were claiming that the credit should go to the actual Jews.

And you should take care to consider what it is other people are saying.

Absurd claim number 3.

Oh no, by all means go ahead. You always have time to post your 'off-topic' rants instead of actually responding to someone invalidating your claims.

OH NO, Aymen's propaganda has unwilling changed my view of Jewish people! And not only that, I should not attempt to see what his point is at all in regards to pro-Israel propaganda, but rather just to see the anti-Israel propaganda!

Well I guess since we are adding a pool of 'relevant' Hitler quotes.

Humanitarianism is the expression of stupidity and cowardice.
- Hitler

I wonder if you noticed that after I proclaimed (indirectly) all people being equal and worth the same and his racist views are, indeed, racist, I was considered to be "anti-semitic", so this makes me assume, you care about people, you hate jews.... Weird, considering "people" would include jews, nor did I say anything about jewish history or jewish people.

Do you feel a sense if.... Weirdness of this?

 

[dust1n]

I wonder if you noticed that after I proclaimed all peopl being equal and worth the same, not one special "race" of humans, I was considered to be "anti-semitic", so this makes me assume, you care about people, you hate jews.... Weird, considering "people" would include jews, nor did I say anything about jewish history now jewish people.

Do you feel a sense if.... Weirdness of this?

Well, I can't argue that a few Jews and non-Jews have made this association towards me since the beginning of this thread.

 

[Gabethewiking]

Well, I can't argue that a few Jews and non-Jews have made this association towards me since the beginning of this thread.

Yeah, but as you said, this was directed at one specific Jew, who clearly hold megalomaniac views about "his race", and pretty much say the same as Adolf Hitler said in various speeches of his, just change "Jewish" with "Germans".

But he wouldn't have that, I become, and Transform, into a "anti-Jew" person because I care for Everyone.. How dare I.. Assimilation OH NO!!! Horrible..... In todays world, how could one suggest that that is good, We need RACES and SEPERATION to make the world a better place indeed.

 

[dust1n]

Yeah, but as you said, this was directed at one specific Jew, who clearly hold megalomaniac views about "his race", and pretty much say the same as Adolf Hitler said in various speeches of his, just change "Jewish" with "Germans".

But he wouldn't have that, I become, and Transform, into a "anti-Jew" person because I care for Everyone.. How dare I.. Assimilation OH NO!!! Horrible..... In todays world, how could one suggest that that is good, We need RACES and SEPERATION to make the world a better place indeed.

What's funny to me is that arimoff at least has the decency to respond back to what you are saying or what I am saying. Granted, the connection between what he is saying and what Hitler said is vague, but even if it wasn't the case at all, it's still disagreeable.