Let's Stop Pretending That Islam is a Religion of Peace

[Godobeyer]

And theft? I suppose that's just forgiveable too?

"[As for] the thief, the male and the female, amputate their hands in recompense for what they committed as a deterrent [punishment] from Allah . And Allah is Exalted in Might and Wise."

Or what about those who are flogged, stoned and beheaded?

That is not merciful. That is punishment and it is not peaceful.

seems its was required to post your thread in Islam DIR .

cut the hand of thief :
But i believe if this practice seriously , there is no theif in the world will dare to steal people .

anyway there is different interpretations about this , depending the situation , so repent is what concern , and back the money (thing) to his owners .

We in Algeria don't practice cut of the hand of theif too , we replace it by jail .
and also for cheated wife or husband , its replace by tax of divorce , that's depend to them (couple) to pass it or put in it court.

 

[Jumi]

While non muslims are asked to pay a tax to live in Muslim lands, it is not as much or any greater than the tax or zakat that most Muslims are obligated to pay to fund charity for poor Muslims.

What about the poor non-Muslims?

 

[Rival]

seems its was required to post your thread in Islam DIR .

cut the hand of thief :
But i believe if this practice seriously , there is no theif in the world will dare to steal people .

anyway there is different interpretations about this , depending the situation , so repent is what concern , and back the money (thing) to his owners .

We in Algeria don't practice cut of the hand of theif too , we replace it by jail .
and also for cheated wife or husband , its replace by tax of divorce , that's depend to them (couple) to pass it or put in it court.

In other words, not actually doing what your God ordered.

 

[Godobeyer]

Any crime considered hudud is given three punishments of varying severity and if the Muslim hasn't truly repented and gone to the straight path then the fourth is what?

sorry i don't know what you are talking about

 

[Godobeyer]

In other words, not actually doing what your God ordered.

not in all issues , maybe in punishement a little bit , it's replaced by human laws (most of them Western) .

btw , I am agree with cut theif hand , and agree with stone cheater , and execute the criminal .

in other hand there is something we consider, the punishement is changed

but important is repent to God is what concern

 

[Godobeyer]

What about the poor non-Muslims?

no tax for them (tax was for protection instead of join Muslims in war) , the Muslim state obligate to help poor non-Muslims .

 

[Sees]

seems its was required to post your thread in Islam DIR ....

Just FYI - Non-Muslims can't really discuss or debate about Islam in the Islam DIR, only ask respectful questions. It would be a violation for this thread, even just the OP alone, to the be in the Islam DIR.

 

[Demonslayer]

Yeah and the American Military is incredibly violent too but I don't see you talking about them.

I wasn't asked about them, this thread wasn't about them. I don't defend the Team America: World Police aspect of our military, I wish we would butt the heck out of most of these horsepoop wars we create.

On the other hand protecting a country and territorial battles are infinately more understandable to me than some insane jihad where the motiviation is based on religious delusions that God is leading your army against your enemies and you are fighting for ideology and nothing concrete.

 

[FearGod]

Those Religions which thrived in the Middle East before Islam which are now oppressed:

- Christianity
- Zoroastrianism
- Judaism
- Various forms of Paganism

Last, Bahai is struggling to make a niche for itself because Islamic "justice" keeps sentencing them to death and oppressing them. They shut down their schools and other such places.

How many of these groups live in peace in Muslim lands?

How many Churches, Synagogues and other temples exist in, say, Saudi Arabia, Iran, Pakistan? Either not many or none, and none are allowed to be built anew and the current ones are not allowed to be repaired.

Second, jizyah - a tax for Christians and Jews to pay just so they can live in Islamic lands which were once their own! How many Christian countries fine you just for being Muslim? I certainly can't name any.

According to Muhammad:

Narrated Said bin Jubair:
Ibn 'Abbas said ... "The Prophet on his death-bed, gave three orders saying, ‘Expel the pagans from the Arabian Peninsula, respect and give gifts to the foreign delegates as you have seen me dealing with them.’ I forgot the third (order)" (Ya'qub bin Muhammad said, "I asked Al-Mughira bin 'Abdur-Rahman about the Arabian Peninsula and he said, ‘It comprises Mecca, Medina, Al-Yamama and Yemen.’" Ya'qub added, "And Al-Arj, the beginning of Tihama.") (Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 52, Number 288)

Here is the Qur'anic ayah about jizyah:

Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Apostle have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgement of superiority and they are in a state of subjection [Quran 9:29]

We have to pay a tax (jizyah) and be in "subjection" or else the Muslims will KILL us.

Here are the words of one Sheikh Najih Ibrahim ibn Abdullah:

"...to spare the blood (of the Zimmis [Dhimmis]), to be a symbol of humiliation of the infidels and as an insult and punishment to them, and as the Shafi`ites indicate, the Jizya is offered in exchange for residing in an Islamic country." Thus Ibn Qayyim adds, "Since the entire religion belongs to God, it aims at humiliating ungodliness and its followers, and insulting them. Imposing the Jizya on the followers of ungodliness and oppressing them is required by God's religion. The Qur'anic text hints at this meaning when it says: `until they give the tribute by force with humiliation.' (Qur'an 9:29). What contradicts this is leaving the infidels to enjoy their might and practice their religion as they wish so that they would have power and authority."

In one SAHIH BUKHARI HADITH Muhammad boasts:

Allah's Apostle said, "I have been sent with the shortest expressions bearing the widest meanings, and I have been made victorious with terror (cast in the hearts of the enemy), and while I was sleeping, the keys of the treasures of the world were brought to me and put in my hand." Abu Huraira added: Allah's Apostle has left the world and now you, people, are bringing out those treasures (i.e. the Prophet did not benefit by them).

[4.52.220]

Muslims not to take Jews and Christians for friends:

O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people [Quran 5:51]

It also calls them 'unjust people'.

Wife-beating permitted by God himself:

Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great. [Quran Verse 4:34]

This isn't even if they have proven themselves unfaithful, but only even if the husband 'fears' it.

Jews and Christians as the worst of creatures:

Verily, those who [despite all evidence] are bent on denying the truth - [be they] from among the followers of earlier revelation or from among those who ascribe divinity to aught beside God - will find themselves in the fire of hell, therein to abide: they are the worst of all creatures. Surah 98 ayah 6



Please stop parading this as a Religion of Peace, because it's not.

Muslims ruled Spain for around 400 years, didn't Spain become the best region in Europe at the era of the dark age ?

They conveyed knowledge, civilization and science to Europe and not destruction.

How you think Islam is bad while the history proves the opposite ?

 

[Rival]

Muslims ruled Spain for around 400 years, didn't Spain become the best region in Europe at the era of the dark age ?

They conveyed knowledge, civilization and science to Europe and not destruction.

How you think Islam is bad while the history proves the opposite ?

Even if Islam had no history whatsoever, it wouldn't make what the Qur'an and ahadith say any better or less oppressive.

 

[Demonslayer]

You misunderstand me. I said people will use that as an excuse to hate them. Honestly if you added all the Muslim terrorists in the world, they'd make less than 1% of Islam. There's over a billion and hundreds of millions of them don't go around stoning non believers or blowing up stuff. Most act like other people.

1% of 1 billion is 10 million. That's half the population of Austrailia. And that doesn't count the millions of other non-terrorists who secretly cheer the jihad.

Again, I understand your point about not discriminating against all Muslims because of terrorism and jihad. I was very outspoken against the anti-mosque crowd during the time everyone wanted to prevent mosques from being built.

But I'm also against this glossing over of the problem and this immediate defense of the religion that people want to push. It's not just you by a long shot so I'm just using your comments as a talking point. This idea that we should give religion a pass just because it "only" causes 10 million of it's followers to become delusional mass murderers is absurd.

Let's not pretend either that terrorism applies to Islam. You have any idea how many Christian terrorists there are or atheist or Jewish or even Sikh terrorists? Yeah they don't get talked about much, but it doesn't mean they don't exist. Some even still exist to this day.

This thread happens to be about Islam, so I'm being critical of Islam.

I'm every bit as critical of other religions, particlarly the destructive influence of Christianity in this country. Instead of religiously driven mass murderers in this country we have religiously driven bigotry and religiously driven stupidity. People feed me the same line about "well it's only a few Christians who hate gay people" but when Chik-Fil-A came out with their bigotry against gays, millions of Christians lined up around the block to get their Bigot Sandwiches. Ditto people trying to push creationsim in public schools, ditto all the other crappy things we have to put up with just so some people scared of death can pretend there is a happy Cloud Kingdom awaiting them when they die.

 

[Theweirdtophat]

1% of 1 billion is 10 million. That's half the population of Austrailia. And that doesn't count the millions of other non-terrorists who secretly cheer the jihad.

Again, I understand your point about not discriminating against all Muslims because of terrorism and jihad. I was very outspoken against the anti-mosque crowd during the time everyone wanted to prevent mosques from being built.

But I'm also against this glossing over of the problem and this immediate defense of the religion that people want to push. It's not just you by a long shot so I'm just using your comments as a talking point. This idea that we should give religion a pass just because it "only" causes 10 million of it's followers to become delusional mass murderers is absurd.



This thread happens to be about Islam, so I'm being critical of Islam.

I'm every bit as critical of other religions, particlarly the destructive influence of Christianity in this country. Instead of religiously driven mass murderers in this country we have religiously driven bigotry and religiously driven stupidity. People feed me the same line about "well it's only a few Christians who hate gay people" but when Chik-Fil-A came out with their bigotry against gays, millions of Christians lined up around the block to get their Bigot Sandwiches. Ditto people trying to push creationsim in public schools, ditto all the other crappy things we have to put up with just so some people scared of death can pretend there is a happy Cloud Kingdom awaiting them when they die.

I said LESS than 1% of Islam. I highly down the terrorists exceed a million. You see them on the news but they aren't nearly as common as people like to say.

 

[Straw Dog]

Maybe they mean that it is a Religion of Rest in Peace?

Apologies to our more sensitive readers. Sometimes my morbid sense of humor overrules my sense of political correctness. Seriously though, we can condemn ourselves to a cynical attitude about Islam or place our hope in continued reform over time. In some ways, I can see how moderate Muslims are enablers of more extreme forms, but I also don't see Islam just going away anytime soon. I put my faith in people connecting on a more basic human level and having real conversations about moving forward.

 

[FearGod]

Even if Islam had no history whatsoever, it wouldn't make what the Qur'an and ahadith say any better or less oppressive.

What the problem with the quran ?
Lets discuss one issue at a time.

 

[mystic64]

I said LESS than 1% of Islam. I highly down the terrorists exceed a million. You see them on the news but they aren't nearly as common as people like to say.

What you say depends on who controls Mecca. Whoever controls Mecca controls Islam should they choose too. Once Mecca becomes under the control of Iran and the Shia the world will belong to Islam.

 

[YmirGF]

Maybe they mean that it is a Religion of Rest in Peace?

Apologies to our more sensitive readers. Sometimes my morbid sense of humor overrules my sense of political correctness. Seriously though, we can condemn ourselves to a cynical attitude about Islam or place our hope in continued reform over time. In some ways, I can see how moderate Muslims are enablers of more extreme forms, but I also don't see Islam just going away anytime soon. I put my faith in people connecting on a more basic human level and having real conversations about moving forward.

I prefer "Religion of Pieces", myself. I think the inescapable reality is that Islam is not exactly "good news" to the average non-believer. Islam has a proven track record of not playing well with others and could easily be called the "Religion of Intolerance".

 

[Lyndon]

How in the world is Iran going to take control of Mecca??

 

[YmirGF]

How in the world is Iran going to take control of Mecca??

Beats me. The things one sometimes reads about Islam are pretty weird.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Good post, @Rival

Islam certainly wouldn't be peaceful towards me if I lived in an Islamic state. I'd be killed for being a Devil worshiper, among many other "moral transgressions" (which, in reality, hurt no one). Islam does not believe in human rights, individual liberties, freedom of thought and belief and so on. It is a sadomasochistic religion, so much so that the very word "islam" means "submission"!

 

[Straw Dog]

I prefer "Religion of Pieces", myself. I think the inescapable reality is that Islam is not exactly "good news" to the average non-believer. Islam has a proven track record of not playing well with others and could easily be called the "Religion of Intolerance".

Fair point. It raises the question of how much we should tolerate intolerance. There is a tendency among some uber politically-correct intellectuals to allow a belief in absolute cultural relativism blind them to this history of violence. I'm for a no-holds-barred deconstruction and conversational criticism of all religions, even the ones that I have a particular affinity for.