Islam belief, Noah, the Great Flood and Science. Coherent or contradictory?

[CG Didymus]

As far as history and science go, the writings were written in the context of the time and the factual content is not important.



Like much of ancient literature the writers believed they were true within the context of time they were written, and yes, they contain writings of myths,many began as oral stories handed down and are not true.




No.



No where in any ancient scripture did it say that God revealed a book. Books did not exist. The actual archaeological and historical evidence has demonstrated they were compiled, edited, and redacted overtime.



The evidence indicates that ancient scripture contains facts, events, and people set in history, but no I do not consider the 'slight possibility that the Bible nor any other ancient writings are 'perfectly true.' The closest to accurate records form early ancient writings is in many Chinese ancient texts.

It's amazing to me on how much of what you say I totally agree with. "

factual content is not important." Yes. "
they contain writings of myths, many began as oral stories handed down and are not true." Yes. That the Bible stories aren't from God. Yes. About the manifestation "bringing" a book, I thought that was part of the Baha'i definition of a manifestation that they bring new teachings in a book? 'Cause I've questioned other Baha'is about this because it is obviously not true since most of them weren't the ones that wrote the "book" that told about themselves and their teachings. So let's not worry about that one. And then, "the Bible nor any other ancient writings are 'perfectly true.'" Yes, why would they be?

So why do people believe their Scriptures are the truth from God and are inerrant and infallible? So why base anything on those ancient religions? Why do some Baha'is get upset when I say that things like the Flood are probably a myth? The only problem you and I have is that I don't believe in the Baha'is Faith either. But don't think my questions are because I hate the Baha'i Faith. It is because I don't believe it's explanations. Like those that say, "The Flood is true, but symbolically." What is that? And, "Jesus rose from the dead... symbolically." No, if it didn't happen, then it's probably a made up fictional story that was told to people as true. Which, to me, makes it a lie.​

 

[CG Didymus]

Yes, positive reinforcement.
When I taught (school counsellor) occasionally I was mediator between students and teachers in 'personality conflicts'. It really reinforced how some 10 year old kids had more wisdom than 60 year old teachers. The 'big boy' would give in. So I remember that when anyone pulls out the age card as justification for 'wisdom'. It may have some merit generally, but in many ways it's folly. One of the neat things about forums like this, because it's words on screen, we often don't know the age (or gender for that matter) of the people we're discussing with, unless it's stated.

I'm 950... but not in "normal" ways years are counted. I lived three hundred years one day.

 

[CG Didymus]

I thimk everyone agrees that SOME bible stories
are made up, and some are historical accounts,
essentially correct.

Big differences of course, in how many of
which are simply fiction, or what % of the
history is accurately recounted. (See
"Viretnam" for recent history with possible
inaccuracies!)

And, a big difference regarding the stories
that involve the supernatural, verity-wise.

"Progressive revelation" looks like what
others call "dispensations". Workarounds.

One place where I believe the bible is intended
to be taken seriously is the thing about jots
and tittles.

Not that any of this is my deal, I am just standing
by observing.

Yes, but what about your knowledge about geology. Do the Christians have any credibility in their "proofs" of a world-wide Flood? Here's a couple of them.

Rapid burial of plants and animals
We find extensive fossil “graveyards” and exquisitely preserved fossils. For example, billions of nautiloid fossils are found in a layer within the Redwall Limestone of Grand Canyon. This layer was deposited catastrophically by a massive flow of sediment (mostly lime sand). The chalk and coal beds of Europe and the United States, and the fish, ichthyosaurs, insects, and other fossils all around the world, testify of catastrophic destruction and burial.
Evidence 3: Rapidly deposited sediment layers spread across vast areas
We find rock layers that can be traced all the way across continents—even between continents—and physical features in those strata indicate they were deposited rapidly. For example, the Tapeats Sandstone and Redwall Limestone of Grand Canyon can be traced across the entire United States, up into Canada, and even across the Atlantic Ocean to England. The chalk beds of England (the white cliffs of Dover) can be traced across Europe into the Middle East and are also found in the Midwest of the United States and in Western Australia. Inclined (sloping) layers within the Coconino Sandstone of Grand Canyon are testimony to 10,000 cubic miles of sand being deposited by huge water currents within days.​

 

[Audie]

Yes, but what about your knowledge about geology. Do the Christians have any credibility in their "proofs" of a world-wide Flood? Here's a couple of them.

Rapid burial of plants and animals
We find extensive fossil “graveyards” and exquisitely preserved fossils. For example, billions of nautiloid fossils are found in a layer within the Redwall Limestone of Grand Canyon. This layer was deposited catastrophically by a massive flow of sediment (mostly lime sand). The chalk and coal beds of Europe and the United States, and the fish, ichthyosaurs, insects, and other fossils all around the world, testify of catastrophic destruction and burial.
Evidence 3: Rapidly deposited sediment layers spread across vast areas
We find rock layers that can be traced all the way across continents—even between continents—and physical features in those strata indicate they were deposited rapidly. For example, the Tapeats Sandstone and Redwall Limestone of Grand Canyon can be traced across the entire United States, up into Canada, and even across the Atlantic Ocean to England. The chalk beds of England (the white cliffs of Dover) can be traced across Europe into the Middle East and are also found in the Midwest of the United States and in Western Australia. Inclined (sloping) layers within the Coconino Sandstone of Grand Canyon are testimony to 10,000 cubic miles of sand being deposited by huge water currents within days.​

Anyone who has studied geology knows this is just
a lot of shallow, deceptive nonsense.

As for me trying to explain why, you've in a few
words given me an assignment that would be
a huge amount of work.

May I suggest you not get your science from
a religious site. Nor bible- learning from a
scientific one.

 

[Vinayaka]

I'm 950... but not in "normal" ways years are counted. I lived three hundred years one day.

You look old. But in all seriousness and off topic, but some folks do seem to have accelerated lives, living 4 or 5 lifetimes worth of experiences in one physical life. (Actually a concept in my faith, for old souls)

 

[Trailblazer]

You might think so, but your opinions and your Baha'i quotes add a lot to the threads. If you have the time, keep posting. I always like what you have to say.

Thanks, the way my offline life is right now, I need all the kind remarks I can get.
I have the next two weeks off work, so I will try to make my way back to this thread.

I must have hundreds of quotes from Gleanings and other Writings saved in Word documents in folders by subject so it is easy for me to grab and go, given I have an eidetic memory.

 

[Vinayaka]

Thanks, the way my offline life is right now, I need all the kind remarks I can get.
I have the next two weeks off work, so I will try to make my way back to this thread.

I must have hundreds of quotes from Gleanings and other Writings saved in Word documents in folders by subject so it is easy for me to grab and go, given I have an eidetic memory.

I beg you please, no quotes. We want to hear from you. If Didymus wants them, maybe send them to him, or put them on the Baha'i DIR.

 

[Trailblazer]

I beg you please, no quotes. We want to hear from you. If Didymus wants them, maybe send them to him, or put them on the Baha'i DIR.

I did not plan to post any, but since CG asked.... I will decide later on a case-by-case basis. If I do not need them to make my point, I won't use them. I do not have time to paraphrase Baha'u'llah and I consider that disrespectful.
Can't you just skim over my posts?

 

[Vinayaka]

I did not plan to post any, but since CG asked.... I will decide later on a case-by-case basis. If I do not need them to make my point, I won't use them. I do not have time to paraphrase Baha'u'llah and I consider that disrespectful.
Can't you just skim over my posts?

I stopped reading Baha'i quotes a very long time ago, and reading 'Here's a quote from Baha'u'llah' is pointless. I just think it diminishes you, as a person. You're the one that has something to say that is relevant to the discussion. I could do the same and quote my teachings ad infinitum too. So could many folks here, but it takes away so much from the individualism of the person. Most other people have conformed to the no quoting ideas. Not sure whether its been because of forum moderation, or them coming to a sense of why. I suspect it's the mods, at least in some cases.

 

[james dixon]

Genesis was first put to print in 1611BC

Now put yourself in that time frame. A time before the oceans and the American continent had been discovered. Does the information stated below seem a bit out of place for that time frame--?

The Beginning

1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.

3 And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light. 4 God saw that the light was good, and he separated the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light “day,” and the darkness he called “night.” And there was evening, and there was morning—the first day.

6 And God said, “Let there be a vault between the waters to separate water from water.” 7 So God made the vault and separated the water under the vault from the water above it. And it was so. 8 God called the vault “sky.” And there was evening, and there was morning—the second day.

9 And God said, “Let the water under the sky be gathered to one place, and let dry ground appear.” And it was so. 10 God called the dry ground “land,” and the gathered waters he called “seas.” And God saw that it was good.

11 Then God said, “Let the land produce vegetation: seed-bearing plants and trees on the land that bear fruit with seed in it, according to their various kinds.” And it was so. 12 The land produced vegetation: plants bearing seed according to their kinds and trees bearing fruit with seed in it according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good. 13 And there was evening, and there was morning—the third day.

14 And God said, “Let there be lights in the vault of the sky to separate the day from the night, and let them serve as signs to mark sacred times, and days and years, 15 and let them be lights in the vault of the sky to give light on the earth.” And it was so. 16 God made two great lights—the greater light to govern the day and the lesser light to govern the night. He also made the stars. 17 God set them in the vault of the sky to give light on the earth, 18 to govern the day and the night, and to separate light from darkness. And God saw that it was good. 19 And there was evening, and there was morning—the fourth day.

20 And God said, “Let the water teem with living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the vault of the sky.” 21 So God created the great creatures of the sea and every living thing with which the water teems and that moves about in it, according to their kinds, and every winged bird according to its kind. And God saw that it was good. 22 God blessed them and said, “Be fruitful and increase in number and fill the water in the seas, and let the birds increase on the earth.” 23 And there was evening, and there was morning—the fifth day.

24 And God said, “Let the land produce living creatures according to their kinds: the livestock, the creatures that move along the ground, and the wild animals, each according to its kind.” And it was so. 25 God made the wild animals according to their kinds, the livestock according to their kinds, and all the creatures that move along the ground according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good.

26 Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals,[a] and over all the creatures that move along the ground.”

27 So God created mankind in his own image,

in the image of God he created them;

male and female he created them.

28 God blessed them and said to them, “Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky and over every living creature that moves on the ground.”

29 Then God said, “I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food. 30 And to all the beasts of the earth and all the birds in the sky and all the creatures that move along the ground—everything that has the breath of life in it—I give every green plant for food.” And it was so.

31 God saw all that he had made, and it was very good. And there was evening, and there was morning—the sixth day.
Bible Gateway passage: Genesis 1 - New International Version


The time line above has been scientifically proven to be true, life did “evolve” as stated. And this evolving process was put to print in 1611 BC.

It is clear to me that the authors of Geneses had some help and it wasn’t from some bird tweeting to them from some window sill.

 

[Trailblazer]

I stopped reading Baha'i quotes a very long time ago, and reading 'Here's a quote from Baha'u'llah' is pointless. I just think it diminishes you, as a person. You're the one that has something to say that is relevant to the discussion. I could do the same and quote my teachings ad infinitum too. So could many folks here, but it takes away so much from the individualism of the person. Most other people have conformed to the no quoting ideas. Not sure whether its been because of forum moderation, or them coming to a sense of why. I suspect it's the mods, at least in some cases.

I looked back at what I quoted to CG to see what I quoted it.... I could have gotten by without those quotes because I explained what I wanted to explain above them. However, those quotes supported what I said and further elaborated upon the subject that CG was asking about. I was not going to paraphrase all of what was in those quotes because that would be kind of like plagiarism and it would also take a lot of time, time I do not have.

When someone such as CG presses me and asks why Baha'is believe this or that, in reference to former scriptures like the Bible, the best answer is not personal but rather it is derived from what Baha'u'llah wrote, since that is WHY I believe what I do. That is why I sometimes feel I need to post a quote; also it carries more weight than my personal opinion, as far as I am concerned.

 

[Vinayaka]

I looked back at what I quoted to CG to see what I quoted it.... I could have gotten by without those quotes because I explained what I wanted to explain above them. However, those quotes supported what I said and further elaborated upon the subject that CG was asking about. I was not going to paraphrase all of what was in those quotes because that would be kind of like plagiarism and it would also take a lot of time, time I do not have.

When someone such as CG presses me and asks why Baha'is believe this or that, in reference to former scriptures like the Bible, the best answer is not personal but rather it is derived from what Baha'u'llah wrote, since that is WHY I believe what I do. That is why I sometimes feel I need to post a quote; also it carries more weight than my personal opinion, as far as I am concerned.

Then go for it. It was merely a suggestion, after all. I won't be reading the quotes. Still, you should know that I appreciate it when you open up on a personal level. it shows humanity rather than a robotic 'by the book' answer. Totally up to you.

 

[Trailblazer]

The time line above has been scientifically proven to be true, life did “evolve” as stated. And this evolving process was put to print in 1611 BC.

It is clear to me that the authors of Geneses had some help and it wasn’t from some bird tweeting to them from some window sill.

I agree that they got some help, but I still think a lot of Genesis is symbolic; e.g., I do not believe that God literally created the heavens and the earth in six days, then rested on the seventh day.

 

[Trailblazer]

Most other people have conformed to the no quoting ideas.

Did you see the rather long quote from genesis above?

 

[james dixon]

Did you see the rather long quote from genesis above?

I was not aware that posting biblical verses was forbidden. Do you think they will ban me because of this?

 

[shunyadragon]

It's amazing to me on how much of what you say I totally agree with. "

factual content is not important." Yes. "
they contain writings of myths, many began as oral stories handed down and are not true." Yes. That the Bible stories aren't from God. Yes. About the manifestation "bringing" a book, I thought that was part of the Baha'i definition of a manifestation that they bring new teachings in a book? 'Cause I've questioned other Baha'is about this because it is obviously not true since most of them weren't the ones that wrote the "book" that told about themselves and their teachings. So let's not worry about that one. And then, "the Bible nor any other ancient writings are 'perfectly true.'" Yes, why would they be? ​

It is good that we have some understanding and agreement, and based on your posts acknowledge you likely do not agree with the metaphysical spiritual claims and beliefs of the Baha'i Faith. The most important understanding is that Revelation from the Baha'i Baha'i Faith is the progressive evolving metaphysical teachings, and Laws for the spiritual evolution and salvation of humanity.

The use of the 'book' here is the important issue. If you are a fundamentalist Christian,yes they believe that God literally revealed 'Books' like the Pentateuch largely written by Moses,and directly inspired by God. and the New Testament revealed word for word when penned by inspired humans. The Revelation of writings,spiritual teachings, laws,and principles are a better way of wording this from the Baha'i perspective.

[quote] So why do people believe their Scriptures are the truth from God and are inerrant and infallible? So why base anything on those ancient religions? Why do some Baha'is get upset when I say that things like the Flood are probably a myth? The only problem you and I have is that I don't believe in the Baha'is Faith either. But don't think my questions are because I hate the Baha'i Faith. It is because I don't believe it's explanations. Like those that say, "The Flood is true, but symbolically." What is that? And, "Jesus rose from the dead... symbolically." No, if it didn't happen, then it's probably a made up fictional story that was told to people as true. Which, to me, makes it a lie.​

[/quote]

First, things that were believed in the past, and factually not true were not lies. Some metaphysical beliefs like the physical resurrection of Jesus Christ, or for that matter the Baha'i belief in a spiritual Resurrection are neither lies, because they cannot be demonstrated as false, because they represent metaphysical beliefs. For example; people who believe in literal reincarnation,versus the Baha'i belief in a spiritual journey through many worlds are differences in metaphysical .beliefs.

Baha'is should not be upset that a literal version of the Biblical flood when understood in the context of the Bible as not a literally true writing, and understand that the story of the flood is not literally, but is under stood in terms of an allegory of the relationship between God, the Manifestation of God, the Covenant between God and humanity. In this context the literal facts of the flood are Biblical trivia.

It should be understood that Baha'is as fallible humans are definitely not necessarily reliable interpreting Baha'i scripture. Quoting in context is more important, and understanding the limitations of human understanding of Revelation,

On the other hand the belief in a literal world flood and the Ark, and a literal Genesis of 6 days or 6 thousand years today are claims of physical events today would be lies based on today's knowledge of science and history. 2000 or more years ago, I would not call them lies, because of the limitations of human knowledge of science and history.

It is understood in this dialogue that you do not believe in the Baha'i Faith nor apparently any other Abrahamic religion.

 

[Trailblazer]

Still, you should know that I appreciate it when you open up on a personal level.

Thanks, I do that a lot more than most Baha'is or other religious people, but normally occurs on the non-religious threads.

I am like a fish out of water when it comes to religion, since I never had much interest in religion, never studied it. That is one reason I try to stay away from the religion threads. It is difficult for me to talk about what I do not know. I know a lot about Baha'i but I do not know a lot about other religions. I only know enough to be dangerous.

 

[shunyadragon]

I was not aware that posting biblical verses was forbidden. Do you think they will ban me because of this?

I was not aware of this,and I do not believe it is forbidden, but proper citation of the source may be required.

 

[Trailblazer]

I was not aware that posting biblical verses was forbidden. Do you think they will ban me because of this?

No, it is okay to post scriptures as long as you also say something in your post that is related to the scriptures. I was just pointing out that I am not the only person who posts scriptures.

 

[shunyadragon]

I stopped reading Baha'i quotes a very long time ago, and reading 'Here's a quote from Baha'u'llah' is pointless. I just think it diminishes you, as a person. You're the one that has something to say that is relevant to the discussion. I could do the same and quote my teachings ad infinitum too. So could many folks here, but it takes away so much from the individualism of the person. Most other people have conformed to the no quoting ideas. Not sure whether its been because of forum moderation, or them coming to a sense of why. I suspect it's the mods, at least in some cases.

Actually direct citations of writings are important, because it allows for the recipient to make their own interpretation of the writings, and not an intervening interpretation of the one sending the citation. A great deal of the misunderstanding in communication is communication of 'opinions of opinions' which result miscommunication.