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Do you trust God?

KWED

Scratching head, scratching knee
Why do you think that is a rational explanation?
1. There is no evidence for gods or the supernatural.
2. There is no requirement for gods or the supernatural for any of our verified explanations for how the universe works.
3. There are countless claims of divine communication, many of them contradictory. They can't all be right but they can all be wrong.

That is a straw man. I never said that as that would be completely illogical as it would be circular reasoning. Anyone can say they are a Messenger but that does not make them a Messenger.
Baha'u'llah is a true Messenger of God because God appointed Him to be a Messenger.
This is brilliant.
Your argument is essentially the same as my example. It's that good ol' cognitive dissonance again!

"Baha'u'llah is a true messenger of god because Baha'u'llah says so"
"Baha'u'llah is a true Messenger of God because God appointed Him to be a Messenger"

You only believe god appointed him because he says that god appointed him, therefore...
"Baha'u'llah is a true Messenger of God because Baha'u'llah says so"

See?
 

KWED

Scratching head, scratching knee
* God is omnipotent
Not entirely, according to your argument. You claim he can only do what is in his nature to do.

* God is not subject to morality since God is all-good.
If god is not subject to morality, then you cannot make any claims about his "goodness".

* God wants man to be free to choose so God gave man free will to choose.
But you have already admitted that only those events willed by god can happen, so free will in not possible.

* Man is free to choose between good and evil.
1. Nope.
2. Why is there evil in the first place?

* God desires to eliminate evil and God does so by revealing Laws which if followed would eliminate evil.
1. If god desires the elimination of evil, why did he create evil in the first place?
2. God knows that only a tiny proportion of the world will follow, or even be aware of those laws - because he willed it that way - so he is deliberately allowing evil to flourish.
 

KWED

Scratching head, scratching knee
Baha'u'llah said so.... How else would we know?
So in other words...
"Baha'u'llah is a true messenger of god because Baha'u'llah says so."
A claim you just rejected as circular logic.

So presumably you now accept that Baha'u'llah's claim is unreasonable and should be regarded with scepticism.
(I suspect that your response will be along the lines of..."but we can trust him because he is a messenger of god")
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
Indeed. I have not really had any dealings with them before joining this forum (certainly seems to have a very high proportion of Baha'i apologists) but they do seem to be the most credulous of all religionists.
That was me about 7 years ago. No dealings whatsoever, but boy was those few very long first discussions were an eye-opener. Now I rarely enter the foray. Best wishes.
 

EtuMalku

Abn Iblis ابن إبليس
* God is omnipotent and omniscient.
* God is not subject to morality since God is all-good.
* God is omnipotent so God has the power to eliminate all evil.
* God is omniscient so God knows whenever evil exists.
* God wants man to be free to choose so God gave man free will to choose.
* Man is free to choose between good and evil.
* God desires to eliminate evil and God does so by revealing Laws which if followed would eliminate evil.
* Some men follow those Laws and do good.
* Other men do not follow those Laws and do evil.

“God hath in that Book, and by His behest, decreed as lawful whatsoever He hath pleased to decree, and hath, through the power of His sovereign might, forbidden whatsoever He elected to forbid. To this testifieth the text of that Book. Will ye not bear witness? Men, however, have wittingly broken His law. Is such a behavior to be attributed to God, or to their proper selves? Be fair in your judgment. Every good thing is of God, and every evil thing is from yourselves. Will ye not comprehend? This same truth hath been revealed in all the Scriptures, if ye be of them that understand.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 149-150

* God wants man to be free to choose so God gave man free will to choose.
* Man is free to choose between good and evil.
God is omniscient and can see all so can predict the outcome of anything. God is capable of changing anything that exists in reality as he is capable of anything possible. God cannot create something he cannot change as he is almighty, understands all, and has power over all. God said men had free will but he predicted the outcome of everything they did before they did it and created them. People have said this doesn't make him responsible but it does, it was his intention all this existed, he may or may not have predicted it all out to the conclusion of his creation (should there be such a thing) at the start, if he did, he engineered it, if he didn't he created something he knew he would have to react to or observe and allowed it to run. This makes it really his choice, even if it wasn't predicted at the start he created the potential then allowed it to be. Without his action, it never would happen. He is the primary cause, it's author. He then by either route caused to enter the world the notion men had free will and to perceive it as his word. He authored the lie and all of the lies.

The problem of free will and theological determinism is the problem of understanding how, if at all, we can have free will if God (who cannot be mistaken) knows what we are going to do.
 

PureX

Veteran Member
Wrong. I am claiming that subjective claims can be verified or disproved. You are claiming that they must be accepted as reasonable, regardless.
First of all, no you can't. A subjective experience is singular, and personal. Unless it's YOUR subjective experience, you have no basis upon which to judge. For example, "Bob" claims that peas taste to him like cheap dog food. This is his own subjective experience. Not yours. So you will have no way to validate or invalidate his experience. You can taste the cheap dog food for yourself, and have your own subjective experience, and validate or invalidate the taste comparison for yourself that way, but that still does not apply to his experience of taste, or his conclusion. And the same would be true if he claimed that getting a flat tire on the way to a big job interview was a message to him from God saying that he should be looking at doing something else. There is no way for you ti validate or invalidate his interpretation of his experience. Because it was HIS experience. And HIS interpretation. Not yours.

Secondly, I neither claimed nor inferred that you must accept the claims made by others about their subjective experiences as being anything more than their claims about their own subjective experiences. That's what they are, and that's how you should understand them. They require no validity assessments from you, and you don't have the capacity to make such an assessment, anyway; as it was not your experience, and it was not claimed as such.
Example.
A person tells me they are hovering 6 inches above the ground.
But that isn't the claim being made. THAT claim would include your participation (as witness) in the experience. It's therefor no longer a purely subjective claim. Whereas receiving a message from God is purely a subjective claim. Your participation is not included. And the fact that you had to alter the parameters of the experience to make it useful to you as a "analogy" only shows how it is not analogous, and that your premise is not sound. If it were, you wouldn't have had to alter the analogy to include yourself as a participant.
Regardless of the fact that it can be, absence of evidence is certainly legitimate grounds for scepticism.
In this instance, it is not grounds for anything at all, because there is no reasonable expectation of any evidence, and therefor nothing to be surmised from not having it. And skepticism is NOT the logical default. It may be YOUR default position, but it's not the position being indicated, logically. The position being indicated based on a lack of evidence, logically, is an open mind. That means being equally receptive to evidence in favor of the claim's alidity, as to evidence against the claim's validity.

Yet this is very clearly not YOUR chosen position. And that ought to give you some pause for consideration. Why isn't it?
Firstly, there is evidence on which to reject claims about gods and their behaviour. It ranges from the complete absence of evidence for, and the failure of every attempt to demonstrate, the supernatural - though irrational claims - to the scientific and historical errors in holy texts.
Now you're just stumbling into an abyss of foolish nonsense based on others and your chosen assumptions about how God would or should exist if God did or does exist. And you can't justify any of these expectations.

For the lack of evidence to be meaningful, there has to be an established, reasonable, defined expectation of evidence that could be found and identified as such if it exists. And there is not, because all the claims are either mythical, or subjectively experienced. Proving a myth is a myth is a pointless waste of time, and subjective experiences (of God or anything else) can't be assessed by anyone but the subject that experienced it. So unless you have some other reasonable expectation of discoverable evidence, your not finding any means nothing.
Finally, "subjective experience" is not "evidence".
Well, it's pretty strong evidence to the person having the experience. And it is even evidence to you if you respect the judgment of the person having the experience. But it's not proof in either case. And neither is the lack of evidence. Especially considering that what you are willing to call "evidence" is completely subject to YOU.
We know the brain can produce experiences that are entirely imaginary, despite seeming entirely real to the subject. (Or are you claiming that the liquid dragons seen by someone on acid actually exist simply because the person imagined them?)
That's irrelevant, however, as you have no way of showing that an experience of God would not involve the brain doing exactly as you claim. If I take an hallucinogenic drug and "see God" while under it's influence there is no more logical reason to presume that I did not see God, as that I did. Because there is no logical reason to presume that the drug created a false experience as to presume that it enabled a true experience.
 
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Sheldon

Veteran Member
when we find ourselves facing suffering, sometimes turning to the ideal of God can help us to see a recourse that we hadn't seen before. Or help us find courage that we hadn't had, before. Or gain comfort that we didn't feel, before. A skeptic might call these "delusions" or "make believe", but they would be fools not to avail themselves of whatever help is available to them in their time of need.

Well perhaps some people can adopt theistic belief in such a transparently false and opportunistic way, but I certainly could not, and of course what you have described would be just as obviously a comforting delusion, even if one could master such self delusion.

And they would be an even bigger, mean-spirited fool to want to deny these advantages to others in their time of need.

That would entirely depend on what else they believed, as some religions teach and have taught ideas that are deeply pernicious, so if it is a choice between preventing them causing suffering to others, or allowing them their comfort blanket, then I'd have to act according to which I perceived caused the greater harm. I also am dubious that people in general need the belief as much as they might think, my world is devoid of belief in deities true, but I don't view it anywhere as bleak an existence as many theists I have read seem to think it must be. Other atheists I have spoken to, who have relinquished theistic beliefs seem to thrive on a new sense of freedom, or at least I have heard them say so. It's a short life, live it as best you can, and let others do the same, as then it's "hello darkness my old friend."
 
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Sheldon

Veteran Member
First of all, no you can't. A subjective experience is singular, and personal. Unless it's YOUR subjective experience, you have no basis upon which to judge. For example, "Bob" claims that peas taste to him like cheap dog food. This is his own subjective experience. Not yours.

However if Bob claimed peas have magical powers, and could heal the sick, we could absolutely test the claim.

And the same would be true if he claimed that getting a flat tire on the way to a big job interview was a message to him from God saying that he should be looking at doing something else. There is no way for you ti validate or invalidate his interpretation of his experience. Because it was HIS experience. And HIS interpretation. Not yours.

I could point out that his belief is irrational of course, since it is a post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy.

Secondly, I neither claimed nor inferred that you must accept the claims made by others about their subjective experiences as being anything more than their claims about their own subjective experiences. That's what they are, and that's how you should understand them.

I agree, like some lonely cowboy in the wilds of Montana, claiming he was beamed aboard an alien spacecraft, I would simply have to admit I can't falsify his unevidenced account, but remain dubious and withhold belief.

They require no validity assessments from you, and you don't have the capacity to make such an assessment, anyway; as it was not your experience, and it was not claimed as such.

Again I agree, but when the deity they've experienced starts making demands, supposedly through them, then I will treat those demands as no more significant than if they were from another human being.
 

Sheldon

Veteran Member
Maybe not to you, but you didn't receive the message, so your opinion is baseless.

This seems to assume there is a deity, and that this deity sent a message, and that someone received it. Since none of this can be supported by any objective evidence I must disbelieve it, as I would any other such claim.

Actually, the reasonable response would be that anyone and anything could be a message (messenger) from God.

I don't think it is reasonable, to simply assume this is possible without any objective evidence, and the claim as I said above involves other unevidenced assumptions. It might seem reasonable to you of course, but I don't think you can insist anyone else find it reasonable.

the determination as to what is a divine message has to be made by the person receiving it. No one else can.

That's pretty convenient. God has told me you're all wrong, and your beliefs all false. God will send you more information in due course, and I'll pass it on. :eek:o_O

This might explain why there are so many different deities and different versions of those deities, with prophets more much more ubiquitous than the deities they create.
 

PureX

Veteran Member
However if Bob claimed peas have magical powers, and could heal the sick, we could absolutely test the claim.
No, you really couldn't.

If the sick person is not healed, God could have simply chosen not to heal them. If the sick person were healed by medicine, God could simply have chosen to use medicine to do the healing. If the sick person is healed by some means that we don't understand, there's no way we can know it was God doing the healing. The fact is that you have no way of determining any of these possibilities true or false.
I would simply have to admit I can't falsify his unevidenced account, but remain dubious and withhold belief.
Your bias against any possibility that you can't verify is closing your mind. **mod edit** You should be concerned about this. "Believing their account" is NOT THE ONLY OTHER OPTION.
Again I agree, but when the deity they've experienced starts making demands, supposedly through them, then I will treat those demands as no more significant than if they were from another human being.
That's an entirely different issue: where and how to draw the line between acceptable and unacceptable behavior of ourselves and others.
 
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PureX

Veteran Member
This seems to assume there is a deity, and that this deity sent a message, and that someone received it. Since none of this can be supported by any objective evidence I must disbelieve it, as I would any other such claim.
It assumed nothing. Why couldn't you just accept that? Bob claims he received a message from God. There is no way for you to verify or dismiss his claim. There is no need for you to verify or dismiss his claim. And that's where it stands, logically. Nothing else needs debating.
I don't think it is reasonable, to simply assume this is possible without any objective evidence, and the claim as I said above involves other unevidenced assumptions. It might seem reasonable to you of course, but I don't think you can insist anyone else find it reasonable.
You can think whatever you like. But the fact that you have no evidence to show that it is NOT possible that God exists and gives people messages, means that it IS POSSIBLE that God exists and gives people messages. And your pretending to know things that you don't know isn't any more honest or healthy or justified when you do it as when some theist does it. If you're going to whine and complain endlessly about them doing it, then you should perhaps stop doing it, yourself.
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
Ah, so only Baha'u'llah can be a true messenger of god because Baha'u'llah says so.
Seems reasonable.
Yeah, if he says so, it must be true. But that is a straw man? So, let's clear this up.

That is a straw man. I never said that as that would be completely illogical as it would be circular reasoning. Anyone can say they are a Messenger but that does not make them a Messenger.
Baha'u'llah is a true Messenger of God because God appointed Him to be a Messenger.
Because he said so is the straw man? And that would be circular reasoning? Because, you say, anybody could claim to be a messenger and many do.

But here's the difference. Baha'u'llah is the true messenger, because God appointed him. And, to complete this circle, how do we know that?
 

Sheldon

Veteran Member
Sheldon said:
However if Bob claimed peas have magical powers, and could heal the sick, we could absolutely test the claim.

No, you really couldn't.

If the sick person is not healed, God could have simply chosen not to heal them.

That is a textbook special pleading fallacy.

If the sick person were healed by medicine, God could simply have chosen to use medicine to do the healing.

The efficacy of the medicine is supported by objective evidence, the deity using magic is not. Oh and there have been double blind clinical trials on post op heart patients, to test the efficacy of prayer. The results showed no discernible effect from the prayed for patients over the ones not prayed for.

If the sick person is healed by some means that we don't understand, there's now way we can know it was God doing the healing.

Why would we even consider it? These rationalisations just smack of a desperate attempt to avoid facing testable evidence.

The fact is that you have no way of determining any of these possibilities true or false.

That is because you are carefully constructing post ad hoc rationalisations to ensure the claim is unfalsifiable. We can do this with any claim or idea, this does not lend credence to the claim, or else invisible mermaids would have to be accepted as real.

Your bias against any possibility that you can't verify is closing your mind.

It's not bias as I treat all claims the same, unlike you, unless you are going to claim to believe all unfalsifiable claims of course? The ad hominem is pretty childish, and only worth noting how quickly your vapid argument had to resort to petty insult.

You should be concerned about this.

Au contraire, the fact that all you can offer is irrational argument, and now petty insult, should concern you, and for fairly obvious reasons I'd have thought.

"Believing their account" is NOT THE ONLY OTHER OPTION.

Straw man fallacy, since I never claimed it was, in fact I have quite pointedly explained to you again and again that I remain agnostic about unfalsifiable claims, and disbelieve them, as these are not mutually exclusive positions.

That's an entirely different issue: where and how to draw the line between acceptable and unacceptable behavior of ourselves and others.

Not really since beliefs motivate actions, and so we all have the right to challenge pernicious beliefs, regardless if the claims are for a divine origin, I treat all claims without bias and thus the same. I cannot do otherwise, nor is it reasonable for someone to claim their beliefs be treated any differently to anyone else's.
 
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CG Didymus

Veteran Member
Why do you think that is a rational explanation?

That is a straw man. I never said that as that would be completely illogical as it would be circular reasoning. Anyone can say they are a Messenger but that does not make them a Messenger.
Baha'u'llah is a true Messenger of God because God appointed Him to be a Messenger.
And we weigh the costs. If there is costs, it is not "free". You're "free" to jump off the top of Mt. Rainer, but, because of the physical law of gravity, you know it will probably cost you your life. Or if a mother tells her little boy not to run out in the street. She gives the kid reasons as to why that is dangerous. She doesn't want her kid to have "free will" to do as he pleases. She wants to teach him to make smart, informed choices. Then with God... You break God's law, and people may never know you're doing it, but God knows. And there is a cost.

I know you keep throwing it out there like it's some important truth about the relationship between God and people... that somehow it ties God's hands from intervening in human affairs. But, if God is real, he should be intervening. And even Baha'is believe he intervenes by sending messengers. And what do messengers do? They bring laws that must be obeyed to get to the place where God wants us to go. If we chose not to listen. That choice is being dumb, and there will be hell to pay. So, you can call it "free" will if you want, but if one choice has too many negative results, you probably will think twice before doing it.
 

Sheldon

Veteran Member
It assumed nothing.

Of course it does, unless you or Bob can demonstrate some objective evidence for a deity, and that it communicated a message, and that he received it, it is nothing but assumptions. How you or Bob view it, has no bearing on that, obviously.

Why couldn't you just accept that? Bob claims he received a message from God.

I just told you why? If I claimed god had told me your beliefs are wrong, would you accept it was a message form a deity?

There is no way for you to verify or dismiss his claim. There is no need for you to verify or dismiss his claim. And that's where it stands, logically. Nothing else needs debating.

There is no way to verify that we're not surrounded by invisible unicorns, that doesn't mean I should believe the claim. If there is nothing more for you to debate why are you debating it, in a debate forum? If it is rational to believe a claim because it is unfalsifiable then you would believe all unfalsifiable claims, even ones that contradict each other, thus by definition it cannot be rational. If you deny some and believe others then that would be selection bias.

You can think whatever you like.

Well that's a given.

But the fact that you have no evidence to show that it is NOT possible that God exists and gives people messages, means that it IS POSSIBLE that God exists and gives people messages.

That is the very definition of an argumentum ad ignorantiam fallacy, again. Not being able to falsify something, or offer contrary evidence does not make it true or valid. I have also made no claims about it myself, merely refused to believe it is true.

And your pretending to know things that you don't know isn't any more honest or healthy or justified when you do it as when some theist does it.

I have not pretended to know anything I don't know, what on earth are you talking about?

If you're going to whine and complain endlessly about them doing it, then you should perhaps stop doing it, yourself.

Stop doing what exactly, please quote me saying I know something that I don't? As for whining, this is a debate forum, debate may not be for you if you find contrary ideas and beliefs so annoying, you seem to be constantly angered by people not sharing your beliefs, yet keep insisting they must think as you do. The problem is that your arguments are demonstrably irrational here.
 
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CG Didymus

Veteran Member
I wonder why were you around them? Yes, the focus of those who have got their noses cut is to make other people also get their noses cut.
That was the Hippie days. All my friends were looking for the truth. There were so many weird cultish types of religions popping up. I was definitely very gullible back then. All they had to say is, "The Christ has returned. But not like the ignorant Christians believe. That Jesus himself would return." They went on to show Bible verses that "proved" their guy was The Guy. Then the basic teachings... Love one another, All people and all religions are one.

What got me away from them was, ironically, the Hippie Christians, the Jesus Freaks. They said, "Hey man, you're really blowing it man, This Baha'i guy is not the Christ. You gotta give your heart to Jesus, man." How could I turn away from such a profound sermon as that?

Next, I was in LA and saw a Jewish bookstore. In went in and asked, "Okay, Baha'is say they came you. Christians say they came from you. And yet, you stay being... you. Why do Jews reject them? I believed the Baha'is by what they told me about the Bible. Verses that made their guy seem like he was the promised Messiah. Then Christians showed me Bible verses that showed why Baha'u'llah was not the Messiah... That the true Messiah was Jesus, and he was coming back. Then the Jews showed me from their Bible that neither one of them fulfilled the prophecies about the Messiah, and how they had both taken verses out of context.

That was a profound lesson. People can take Bible verses out of context and make them into prophecies or something that supports their religious beliefs. So, I never trusted religious people again. But it is a type of religious person. The ones that get themselves into proselytizing kinds of religions. These people get in these religious movements and right away think it is their duty and calling to go "save" the world and tell everybody the good news... That Jesus is coming. Or Jesus has come. Or some variation of that same thing.

One my concerns and problems with Baha'is is that they can't truly accept people in the different religions as they are. Part of the Baha'i message is that all the people in all the other religions are following some, and sometimes a lot, of false teachings that are based on wrong interpretations. So, all people and all religions, to them, aren't one. Not unless those people see the "light". And see how their old religion used to be right, but now is wrong. And the right thing to do, if they really believe in God, is to listen to his new messenger and become a Baha'i. So, no matter what they claim, Baha'i are called to go out and "teach" the word.

This problem is very apparent with you and Vinayaka. You don't believe in their God, and he doesn't believe in Krishna. And, ironically, they don't believe in the Hindu Gods, and I know they don't believe that Krishna was an incarnation of Vishnu. So, even with those Hindus, they expect them to reject the Hindu Gods and believe in a more Abrahamic type of God. And, for those that believe in avatars, to change that to "manifestations" of the one God. But also, probably reject the several incarnations of Vishnu, that some Hindus believe in, and accept the list of manifestations given by Baha'is. Which at least, includes Krishna. So, can the Baha'i Faith bring unity in diversity when it doesn't accept diversity?
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
God desires to eliminate evil and God does so by revealing Laws which if followed would eliminate evil.
Assuming God did reveal the various laws in the different religions, has any religion been successful in getting its people to obey and follow those laws? And why do you think it will be different with the Baha'i Faith?
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
and the beat goes on and on and on and on....
I for one am tired of this religion stuff, but you never seem to tire of it.
Only responding to you and other Baha'is making claims... I mean, stating their beliefs.

If what the Baha'is are saying is true, then it is the most important message in the world. Is it being presented as if it is the most important message in the world right now? And again, very similar to that all important message that born again Christians give, "Jesus is coming soon. Are you saved? Accept him now. Before it is too late." Why do so many of us ignore them? Because lots of us tried the religion and/or studied the religion and there are flaws with their beliefs. Some of us see flaws in the beliefs of the Baha'i Faith also.
 
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