My first post

[Link]

Amazing. Allah went to the trouble of lecturing Mohamed for 22 years, but then He let is creation get corrupted.

That's a large degree of weakness of which you accuse your 'all powerful' god. Seriously, do you really not see how absurd that is?

Allah (swt) expresses it like this:

كَيْفَ يَهْدِي اللَّهُ قَوْمًا كَفَرُوا بَعْدَ إِيمَانِهِمْ وَشَهِدُوا أَنَّ الرَّسُولَ حَقٌّ وَجَاءَهُمُ الْبَيِّنَاتُ ۚ وَاللَّهُ لَا يَهْدِي الْقَوْمَ الظَّالِمِينَ | How shall Allah guide a people who have disbelieved after their faith and [after] bearing witness that the Apostle is true, and [after] manifest proofs had come to them? Allah does not guide the wrongdoing lot. | Aal-i-Imraan : 86

 

[Come2thelight]

@Daniel Nicholson

"I would say that it is unreasonable to understand an original source by this process: original source > angel > illiterate man in a cave > many scribes and people who remember the words > words written down and everything compiled together in no discernable order."

How is this unreasonable?

"What do you think is irrational about other approaches to understanding life and purpose?"

Depends on the various notions out there. Christianity for example, the concept of us all being in sin and an innocent man needs to die for us to be saved doesn't add up.

"Perhaps it provides an approach to how people should live their lives in the 7th century"

These teachings are still applicable today.

"What is objective about it?"

People's feelings aren't taken into consideration.

"This is a bold assumption. It's message is within the context of a very specific time and place."

Also quite applicable today actually.

"There are some things it get completely wrong, for example, cosmology"

How so?

"Does not mean its true or from God"

No doubt, yet we haven't seen such a drastic transformation within a society like this ever.

"persuasive by the sword in some ways"

This comment is quite telling on your views

"Subjective, warped to meet political and personal interests"

Care to share an example of it being subjective?

" I did not know this, how so?"

We are caretakers of the world and should treat it with respect and love. We can't harm animals for sport, nor can we burn trees during warfare. Littering will come and bite us on the day of judgment and so will any kind of injustice done to animals.

 

[Come2thelight]

What is not clear to me is what is it about not believing in God that requires forgiveness or needs punishment in the first place.

Forgiveness is required because we all make mistakes. We see this secularly when we seek the forgiveness of others. Since we were given this life without being asked to be born, nor did we choose the time, nor did we choose the family, nor the situation, then it is clear that the control is external from ourselves.

Additionally, consider the proposition that we are an entity made up of a mind and a body. This body of ours is a machine, operating without our volition. We can't make an organ stop functioning by a mere thought. If we get cut, we heal. Furthermore, we are submissive to a system and any form of rebellion towards that system can lead to our demise. For example, lack of food, sleep, oxygen, etc.

Since the body is already submissive to the system, as a sentient being and after deep self-reflection, I found it wise to submit my mind to the source of all existence as well. Doing so brought harmony within me just like the harmony we see in nature. The key to serenity is to alight the body and mind.

The individual that doesn't recognize this has been deluded by the material world. Yet, people get reminded almost every night when we dream. That there's more to this existence. There's a reason we experience dreams compared to it just being a projection of our minds. Rather the experience is so strong that a person can still be under the effect of the dream after they wake up. When the body needs a time out, the mind is still active. Quite remarkable.

So this tied to all that we experience through life gives me the confidence to say that there is an intelligent source to our existence.

So back to my question. If a person doesn't accept God in this life, why should God accept them in the next?

Second how can eternal hell be a just punishment for anyone whatsoever.

There is a dispute amongst Islamic scholars if it is actually eternal or not. However, it is the consensus without dispute that it is so long that it could be considered an eternity. Or since it does extinguish and the people just perish along with it, then that too could be considered an eternity. Because it is the rest of their existence. Allah knows best and may we all be protected from it.

The idea behind it being an eternal punishment comes from the notion that since the individual was hell-bent on disbelief and this wouldn't have changed, they would have gone an eternity this way, and therefore, they'll remain alienated from God forever.

If person X leaves Islam you will always say that this is because he was not actually believing or guided into true Islam. So there is always a way to explain away anything

There is no intellectually good reason to leave Islam. We can see this with those that have left. The crux of their complaints was always tied to emotions.

 

[Come2thelight]

Hello to you, and we hope you will set an example for intellectual integrity

Hello to you too

How have I been doing so far?

 

[YoursTrue]

But you have the option to quit whereas you dont if you are taken as war booty for example.

In actuality, sometimes people don't have much of a choice. There are many MANY inequities and injustices in the economic system. People living on the street because they can't find shelter have problems .. many of them .. not to mention the random acts of violence perpetrated on them as well as on people who do not live on the street.

 

[Come2thelight]

According to hadiths, he's an atheist.

According to the Quran, he's not an atheist, but a kafir. One that knows the truth and works to suppress it.

Like Satan, who says to man, ‘Do not believe!’ but when man disbelieves, says, ‘I disown you; I fear God, the Lord of the Worlds,’ 59:16

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

Hello Ella, thank you for your question.

I do have to clarify that Allah (God) does not directly reveal Himself to anyone in a physical sense. Rather specific individuals have been selected to share the information they've received from Allah via an angel or in the case of Moses (pbuh), through direct speech. So just to be clear, Allah is always unseen. (And this is a different discussion in itself)

To tackle your question, this ties into the notion of the test that Islam holds. The Quran states that Allah created death and life to test us in our actions (67:2). Had Allah been known, then there would be no test. People would not act sincerely based upon their desires had Allah been visible as the sun. For example, a robber would not rob a bank knowing for sure they'd get caught, unless they want to get caught.

Similarly, an employee that doesn't feel like doing work will be productive if their boss is looking directly at their screen. They'll stay at it until the boss leaves. Had Allah been a fact like 2+2=4 then that would leave no room for other possibilities, and it would remove the concept of faith. One doesn't believe in facts, rather they just know them.

We also have to be real, there are a lot of people that wouldn't be able to mentally take such a phenomenon. (God or an angel communicating with them). Such a supernatural experience will need some form of strong will from the individual. From what is read, we can even see that a lot or almost all that do experience the supernatural, have expressed fear as the first impulse. So what would happen to those that aren't equipped to take the glove?

Lastly, one can make an argument that the inner dialogs that humans have could come from an angelic voice. Allah knows best.

Welcome. This post seems to reveal that Islam assumes God is either incapable or unwilling to hold people accountable.

 

[Come2thelight]

Welcome. This post seems to reveal that Islam assumes God is either incapable or unwilling to hold people accountable.

How'd you get to that conclusion?

 

[ChristineM]

Assalamuwa'alaikum

Are you asking disbelievers for insults?
That's what usually happens.

Interesting, I see no insults from disbelievers only genuinely enquiring questions but i do see believer's slagging off disbelievers. Make of that what you will.

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

Welcome.
Why does a prophet of God deny what another prophet of God said.
I am speaking of Muhammad denying what Jesus said, that He would be killed and rise from the dead?

Probably for the same reason Jesus said he would do things he didn’t.

 

[Link]

According to the Quran, he's not an atheist, but a kafir. One that knows the truth and works to suppress it.

Like Satan, who says to man, ‘Do not believe!’ but when man disbelieves, says, ‘I disown you; I fear God, the Lord of the Worlds,’ 59:16

Salam alaikom brother, wa rahmatallah wa barakatu

I've thought about this verse before but thanks for bringing it up. It means he causes people to disbelieve in reality of Jinn, Angels, power of Prophets (a) while he witnesses all that. His fear of God lord of the worlds, is fearing the order of heavens and earth. From another sense, he only deceives himself while he knows God is real.

Same when during battle, he fled because he feared God. But in reality, he doesn't believe in God as far as he tells himself. He fears the order of heavens, and so fears the God of the Angels and God's forces, but doesn't really believe in him as being real. From another sense, he knows the signs of God point to God and is only lying to himself while knowing he is real.

The thing is Iblis calls to himself, but sometimes in that call to not fear punishment from God and Angels and his chosen Authorities and forces, people go too far and deny all that, They become blind to all that due to the call of Iblis. But he himself is aware of magic despite him causing people to disbelieve in the magical worlds. So here he fears their Lord as in the command of order of heavens and earth, is based on belief in God.

Sometimes God talks about true intention of a person, for example, he says Pharaoh and his chiefs with him were SURE of God's signs from Musa (a) but denied them anyways.

Iblis has deceived himself he is a good guy. When you realize he actually believes in dirty acts and sexual deviance, and has tricked himself that he is a compassion ally to even humans, you will better to witness the Kaheneen and their ways, and you will understand how Devils think, and be able to guard against them.

Although many or most kaheeneen believe in a Creator or claim to, there is an elite of Magog who are followers of Gog, who are told the secrets and are told about the destroyed cities and nations, and they are preparing for the final show down as well, and Iblis does believe he can overthrow heavens and earth as far as he deceives himself because he stills grows in power and his magic increases in power and so do his forces. However, they can't come near any of the power of the Prophets and so are ever foolish, like the Pharaoh when he wanted to look a the God of Musa (a). He thought (he tricked himself) that can he reach the power of Musa (a) eventually.

The faith Pharaoh had about "God of Musa" that he can overthrow it, this is same faith of Iblis about the God of Ahlulbayt (a), he believes it's their delusion. From same way Pharoah feared Musa (a) and his prophecies, Iblis fears God... but he doesn't believe he is real.

 

[oldbadger]

Any discoveries by scientists lately? As to life on other planets? Not "theories," but -- photos of life? Or let me guess -- maybe it's invisible.

Ha ha! You want humans to travel light years through space to bring you back some pics?
And if they should you'll be body-swerving off in to some other mindset.

Getting to know ya...... getting to know..........

 

[Come2thelight]

@Link Brother, concise speech is beauty.

 

[icehorse]

So yes, I do have a problem with this us vs them nonsense. The Quran might have made you think this because you are isolating a few ayahs and ignoring the overall message of Islam.

I'm glad that you're against "us vs. them" messages, we're agreed, hooray!

But I'm not talking about a few verses in the book, I'm talking about the hundreds and hundreds of times that non-believers are maligned in the book. From a cognitive science perspective, this extremely high repetition of the same message is now known to be an effective way to perform propaganda and brain washing. The Quran spends a LOT of time criticizing non-believers. This is simply not a path to peace and love.

 

[Link]

@Link Brother, concise speech is beauty.

Salam bro,

Let me try again. Sorry.

He believes in God same way Pharaoh believed in God of Moses. He fears God same Pharaoh feared the coming of Moses without actually believing in Musa and his God properly. He seeks to win, same way Pharaoh wanted to overthrow the God of Moses and reach his power.

Pharaoh was saying really Musa (a) was either possessed or making up God, and that either way, he himself will overcome his power.

Iblis and his forces grow in power over time, but they will never reach the power of any of God's chosen. They just deceive themselves they will win at the final showdown, but are also afraid of it.

 

[oldbadger]

By the way, I'm not talking about the future. I'm talking about any signs of trees, plants, animals, that have been observed on any other planet. now.

By the way, I'm not talking about the future, nor the present....I'm talking about the fact that Paul didn't know, care or make mention of anything that Jesus ever did (except the last 24 hours, maybe)
And the authors of G-John didn't have a clue where to put the various incidents they held on any timeline. They didn't even know about the most amazing incident in disciple John's life!

It ,might be best if you used all your investigative powers....researching the gospels.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Like Satan, who says to man, ‘Do not believe!’ but when man disbelieves, says, ‘I disown you; I fear God, the Lord of the Worlds,’ 59:16

Like the criminal who encourages a youngster to commit a crime, and then disowns them when they get caught, you mean?

 

[Link]

Iblis doesn't believe in Surah Ikhlaas at all. At all.

 

[muhammad_isa]

..I'm talking about the hundreds and hundreds of times that non-believers are maligned in the book. From a cognitive science perspective, this extremely high repetition of the same message is now known to be an effective way to perform propaganda and brain washing. The Quran spends a LOT of time criticizing non-believers. This is simply not a path to peace and love.

What according to you IS a path to peace and love?

I assume it is some kind of man-made ideology.

 

[Come2thelight]

@icehorse

The majority of the time when you see the word disbeliever, this is translated from the word Kafir. Kafir is not simply a disbeliever, but rather one that knows the truth and works to suppress it.