I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the Lord, do all these things

[Trailblazer]

This is just wrong. If I watch Jurassic Park, I know the lawyer is going to run to the toilet and then get eaten by the T-rex. It's gonna happen every single time.

However, my knowledge of this is NOT what makes him run.

That's right, he does not run because you know he is going to run so what makes him run?
It is in the script, but the lawyer would not have run unless he had chosen to run in the script.

No.

If God knows today what shirt I am going to choose to wear tomorrow, I am not able to choose to wear a different shirt.

There is no today and tomorrow from where God exists since God does not exist in time.

God has always known throughout all of eternity which shirt you would choose to wear and you were able to choose any shirt you wanted to wear at any time (unless your girlfriend put it in the wash. )

Evil requires some conscious act. Even if there is no good, you won't get evil unless that act is chosen. If there is no good, but no one chooses to be evil, then you are left with indifference.

That's correct.

And if I answer this, what are you going to ask me next?

But how do you KNOW you know you know?

But how do you KNOW you know you know you know?

But how do you KNOW you know you know you know you know?

And so on? I've got better things to do with my time.

A simple answer would suffice and then there would be no more questions.

I don't care. Each religion has people who claim they KNOW what the purpose of the world is, and they are all based on religious beliefs I find implausible at best and ridiculous at worst. You accomplish nothing by present a religious belief I don't share in an effort to try to explain it to me.

I said: God created this world with a purpose in mind and that is why it is the way it is.
Then you said: Except no one knows what this purpose is

Since you said that 'no one knows' what this purpose is, I was just explaining what I believe this purpose is. I don't expect you to agree with me.

 

[Trailblazer]

It doesn't explain those thing nowadays but to a goat farmer 5,000 years ago I'm sure some all powerful being was the most likely answer.

That is probably true since 5,000 years ago people did not have the scientific knowledge we have now.

It's a mystery to me why anyone believes it. Not that I claim any special knowledge that makes my position any more valid than yours.

I believe in an afterlife of some kind because it makes sense to me that there is more to life than this material world, and I would believe it even if I did not have a religion, but I understand that it does not make sense to everyone.

 

[CG Didymus]

This is just wrong. If I watch Jurassic Park, I know the lawyer is going to run to the toilet and then get eaten by the T-rex. It's gonna happen every single time.

However, my knowledge of this is NOT what makes him run.

No, it's the script writer and director. God is the writer and director. Except, to us, it's more like a reality show. It seems like we have choices, but that's the question... do we? Since it turns out exactly how God wants it to, it's hard for me to believe that it hasn't been thought out and scripted. Assuming there is a God.

 

[KWED]

Then lets base our thoughts in the teachings that embrace unity of the entire human race.

Why? People want independence and autonomy. They don't want to be governed by a distant, central authority. The human race is diverse and its values are different. We should embrace that and not try to suppress it. Every attempt to do so in the past has failed ant it is naive to think that any future attempt would succeed.

"Ah! But..." I hear you cry, "It will work if everyone gives up what they value and adopt my preferred values". Which is what everyone has said before, and is basically a kind of ideological imperialism.

 

[KWED]

But God did create a world of opposites for us to exist in.

Yes, I get that. What I am asking is why?
Why did he create hate and evil when there was no need to?

As such Truth is relative to our level of understanding in this creation.

Rubbish. If something is true, it is irrelevant how many people realise it. Conversely, it doesn't matter if the whole world accepts a lie, it still isn't true.

How do we know what is all the other worlds of God? There is more worlds that we can count, infinite.

Why did he create this one so poorly? Is it a trial and error thing? Were we one of his earlier, failed attempts?

God created man with the capacity to choose Love.

And the capacity to choose evil. Why did he include evil? Why not just a choice between love and not love. And why does everyone have to love everything all the time? That's just weird.

So why do we still choose not to love, when the results of not loving all others can be seen, experienced and learnt from?

I do not love my accountant, my dentist, my neighbours, the man in the shop down the road, most of the people I know in fact. I like some of them, I respect some of them, I have no real opinion of others. Why is that a bad thing? Why must I love them all?
And if I did, where would that leave my parents, my girlfriend, any children I might have in the future? By insisting I love everyone, the emotion becomes meaningless.

How clever we think we are, yet we still cannot Love to the extent that war is an unthinkable atrocity.

Sometimes war could be an act of love. A love of country, of freedom, of tolerance.
If an aggressor invades your homeland, you would have us just capitulate and submit to their oppression. Love means we fight back, and often that love overcomes the greed and intolerance. It's how the world works, because it's how humans work. What you want is a kind of global Stepford Wives, with all our natural emotions and instincts suppressed. In a way, you are no better than the dictator invading the free country to impose his ideology on everyone else.

Now, I realise that you will simply ignore all my carefully reasoned points here, and simply quote some scripture or trot out another meaningless platitude, but you really should try to think more deeply about these issues.

 

[KWED]

Mostly, as I am naught without those to offer.

That's actually quite sad.
My advice is; next time you go to post a scriptural quote, stop and read it a few times. Break it down into phrases and see if you could explain what they mean to a person who has never heard of the concept of "god". Honestly ask yourself if it makes any real sense. Just be a bit more questioning. Ask yourself if the emperor's clothes really are as magnificent as you have been led to believe.

 

[KWED]

You think Taiwan is the only factor in the war China will start? It isn't.
China is in dispute with Japan over islands and resources. China demands ownership of those islands and the entire South China Sea which is now international waters.
China wants those trade routes to be under Chinese control so they can demand payment for passage with the right to deny passage to whatever country they want restricted.
The United Nations Conference on Trade and Development estimates 60 percent of maritime trade passes through Asia, with the South China Sea carrying an estimated one-third of global shipping.

Its waters are particularly critical for China, Taiwan, Japan, and South Korea, all of which rely on the Strait of Malacca, which connects the South China Sea and, by extension, the Pacific Ocean with the Indian Ocean. As the second-largest economy in the world with over 60 percent of its trade in value traveling by sea, China’s economic security is closely tied to the South China Sea. Also because of their large population and fear of future famine China wants control of all fishing rights in the South China Sea which would restrict island nations to catch limits that may not be enough to support their country.
It's claimed that $5.3 trillion worth of goods transits through the South China Sea annually.

And it is that mutual dependence that will prevent a major war. Everyone has too much to loose, especially as China is now a top economy that depends on unrestricted global trade. Economics has supplanted ideology as the hand on China's rudder.

 

[KWED]

..so what?
The reason why you will not wear any other shirt is because you don't choose to.

It is not the actual decision that is the issue. It is the ability to choose otherwise.
Under god's infallible omniscience, we do not have the ability to choose otherwise. Therefore no free will - even if it feels like we have free will.

 

[KWED]

You are able to choose whatever you like.

You accept that at any given moment we can only perform the action that god knows we will perform.
Therefore, by definition, at that moment, we do not have the ability to perform any other action.
Therefore, you are not able to choose whatever you like. We must choose the one option that god already knows we will chose, from all the possible options.
We feel like we are making a free choice. No one is forcing us against out will. But, that choice was inevitable from the moment god knew the future - which is for eternity.
And if that one outcome had to happen from even before the universe existed - how can there be any free will for you in the making of that choice when the moment comes for you to make it?

Pretty simple stuff. And you haven't explained why we can choose whatever we like. You have merely asserted it.

Also, there is the small extra matter of god determining the outcome of all events by his decree (which means he actually decides what happens).
So even if we simply ignore the issue of infallible omniscience, we still have no free will.

 

[KWED]

Silly isn't it.
He can choose whatever shirt he likes.
By saying "if G-d knows I will wear a red shirt", then it follows that you will choose it because you want to .. not because you are forced to.

You are missing the point.
By having infallible omniscience, god removes our ability to change our mind. You need to forget this straw man of god forcing us to change our mind.
Basically you are saying that the future has already happened, which is how god is able to see it.
This means the future is fixed and cannot cue altered through our actions, which also essentially means we have no free will.

 

[wellwisher]

You are missing the point.
By having infallible omniscience, god removes our ability to change our mind. You need to forget this straw man of god forcing us to change our mind.
Basically you are saying that the future has already happened, which is how god is able to see it.
This means the future is fixed and cannot cue altered through our actions, which also essentially means we have no free will.

When Adam and Eve ate of the tree of knowledge of good and evil; law, which implied good and evil, and not just good like with the optimized impulses of natural instinct, their new choice for good and evil resulted in their banishment from paradise, where all was good and choice was not needed due or instincts.

Their banishment led them to a world where good and evil, and death and suffering all existed. Death comes into their world. Ironically, this polarization of thoughts about reality, into good and evil, allowed them to have choices and free will. If things were all good, there is no choice, since any choice will be good. But if the same things are broken down into good and evil, then these mutually exclusive options, requires choices within different impacts and outcomes.

God rested on the seventh day, so he was no longer actively running the show, since he was on the first Sabbath rest. He had someone else run the show. This authority, as the CEO of humans, on behalf of God, as he rested, was assigned to snake in the tree of knowledge of good and evil, who allowed for choice; Satan. Satan, who was both good and evil, by nature, became the Lord of the earth, and like his tree, would do both good and evil things. With both these opposite actions existing, choices now had to be made. One could chose to do good or do evil. But one had to make a choice, since good and evil were opposite, yet still connected, like two sides of a coin.

If you look at the invasions of Israel over the ancient years, the Lord; Satan, would blame this on the choices made, which were not the choices, needed to get a better outcome. They chose not to follow his rules. Choices between good and evil, would eventually lead to reason; cause and affect.

Jesus got rid of law; yes or no, in favor of yes in him. This was the beginning of the return to paradise, as reason; cause and affect, replaces the whimsical and often subjective choices of good and evil. If you can reason reality, choices become easier to optimize within reality. Yes in him implies choosing the will of God based on being objective to his rational natural plan. If one is unable to reason to bets too much on statistics; whims of Gods, instead of reason, then it all appear that you have no choice.

For example, the COVID pandemic was not approached properly, since it took away the choices of people who, based on the hard reality of 20/20 hindsight, would show no vulnerable to the virus. Most people had no major impact from the virus, and should have been given choices. Yet, the law or knowledge of good and evil, based on medical casino math; risk analysis, took away choices and free will.

It was not so much these people not having free will and choice, but the powers to be tried to play God, removing choices while calling choice, evil, so they could be controlled. Law often create forced conformity so choices become funneled toward no choice, based on whim of the gods; statistical irrationality.

If medical science was more rational and could reason who was vulnerable and who was not, then everyone would have more free choices. But whims of the Gods, irrationality, results in one size fits all mentality, that takes way choice for not reason besides fear of the unknown. With reason, the cause and affect can be inferred and the boogeyman that irrationally restricts choice can be taken away. With COVID, if someone who was healthy and would show no symptoms had made a choice not to conform, this would be evil by the law, even if good by instinct. This confusion brought death to the world.

 

[KWED]

When Adam and Eve ate of the tree of knowledge of good and evil; law, which implied good and evil, and not just good like with the optimized impulses of natural instinct, their new choice for good and evil resulted in their banishment from paradise, where all was good and choice was not needed due or instincts.

All of this must have been part of god's plan for his creation. He knew it would happen before he created Adam and Eve, but he still created them that way, in the full and certain knowledge of the outcome.

If things were all good, there is no choice, since any choice will be good.

But it is still a choice between good things.

But if the same things are broken down into good and evil, then these mutually exclusive options, requires choices within different impacts and outcomes.

No different in essence to choices between different types of good.

God rested on the seventh day, so he was no longer actively running the show, since he was on the first Sabbath rest.

Does god have to rest on the Sabbath?

He had someone else run the show. This authority, as the CEO of humans, on behalf of God, as he rested, was assigned to snake in the tree of knowledge of good and evil, who allowed for choice; Satan. Satan, who was both good and evil, by nature, became the Lord of the earth, and like his tree, would do both good and evil things. With both these opposite actions existing, choices now had to be made. One could chose to do good or do evil. But one had to make a choice, since good and evil were opposite, yet still connected, like two sides of a coin.

If you look at the invasions of Israel over the ancient years, the Lord; Satan, would blame this on the choices made, which were not the choices, needed to get a better outcome. They chose not to follow his rules. Choices between good and evil, would eventually lead to reason; cause and affect.

Jesus got rid of law; yes or no, in favor of yes in him. This was the beginning of the return to paradise, as reason; cause and affect, replaces the whimsical and often subjective choices of good and evil. If you can reason reality, choices become easier to optimize within reality. Yes in him implies choosing the will of God based on being objective to his rational natural plan. If one is unable to reason to bets too much on statistics; whims of Gods, instead of reason, then it all appear that you have no choice.

For example, the COVID pandemic was not approached properly, since it took away the choices of people who, based on the hard reality of 20/20 hindsight, would show no vulnerable to the virus. Most people had no major impact from the virus, and should have been given choices. Yet, the law or knowledge of good and evil, based on medical casino math; risk analysis, took away choices and free will.

It was not so much these people not having free will and choice, but the powers to be tried to play God, removing choices while calling choice, evil, so they could be controlled. Law often create forced conformity so choices become funneled toward no choice, based on whim of the gods; statistical irrationality.

If medical science was more rational and could reason who was vulnerable and who was not, then everyone would have more free choices. But whims of the Gods, irrationality, results in one size fits all mentality, that takes way choice for not reason besides fear of the unknown. With reason, the cause and affect can be inferred and the boogeyman that irrationally restricts choice can be taken away. With COVID, if someone who was healthy and would show no symptoms had made a choice not to conform, this would be evil by the law, even if good by instinct. This confusion brought death to the world.

No idea what you are on about now.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Under god's infallible omniscience, we do not have the ability to choose otherwise..

That's a trick statement.
You have the ability to choose whatever you like.

If you say that G-d knows you will choose "A", that doesn't mean that you could have wanted to choose something else and you were unable to.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Pretty simple stuff. And you haven't explained why we can choose whatever we like. You have merely asserted it.

It is a given that we have the free-will to choose.
We are held responsible for what we do .. it is pretty basic.

If you want to argue that we are not responsible for our actions, don't include me in such a debate .. a complete waste of time.

 

[KWED]

That's a trick statement.

No it isn't. It is just a simple statement of fact. The logical outcome of a set of circumstances.

You have the ability to choose whatever you like.

No you don't. You only have the ability to choose the one thing god already knows you will choose.
Please explain how you are able to choose something that god doesn't know you will choose.

If you say that G-d knows you will choose "A", that doesn't mean that you could have wanted to choose something else and you were unable to.

You really need to stop attacking this straw man. No one is saying that you want to choose A, and try to choose A, but feel yourself somehow compelled to choose B, even though you don't want to.

You want to choose A. You feel like you want to choose A. But that is because choosing A is inevitable. Your ability to want to choose B has been removed by god's infallible omniscience.

The paradox is just a consequence of unsophisticated thinking by Bronze Age men. There is no mystery behind it. You just struggle with it because your very faith depends on the two things being compatible. Classic cognitive dissonance.

 

[KWED]

It is a given that we have the free-will to choose.

No it isn't! That is the whole point!!
You are making a claim that is incompatible with another of your claims (god's predetermination and infallible omniscience). Therefore you have to resolve the contradiction and explain how it is possible to have free will when god knows the future and determines the outcome of all events.
All you have done so far is keep repeating your initial assertion.

We are held responsible for what we do .. it is pretty basic.

*sigh*
That that is only reasonable if we have free will. If we don't (which we can't under predetermination and infallible omniscience), then being held responsible for something we had no control over is unjust and unreasonable.
It is pretty basic.

If you want to argue that we are not responsible for our actions, don't include me in such a debate .. a complete waste of time.

You don't seem to understand what is going on here.
*smh*

 

[muhammad_isa]

You want to choose A. You feel like you want to choose A. But that is because choosing A is inevitable. Your ability to want to choose B has been removed by god's infallible omniscience.

That's ridiculous.. I'm not wasting my time with you.
You can choose A or B. 'If' is a conditional statement, and you are just playing with words and logic constructs.
We have free-will.

If you think that it is not possible for G-d to know what we will freely choose, then that's your opinion.

 

[muhammad_isa]

You don't seem to understand what is going on here.

I know only too well.

Your argument is that if G-d knows the future, then we don't have free-will.

It is bunkum, as far as I'm concerned.
You can believe what you like.

 

[KWED]

That's ridiculous.. I'm not wasting my time with you.
You can choose A or B. 'If' is a conditional statement, and you are just playing with words and logic constructs.
We have free-will.

I see you still haven't managed to form a cogent argument in response to my point. Just assertion and denial.
(I'll let you into a little secret. That's because free will is incompatible with predetermination/infallible omniscience. Shhh!)

If you think that it is not possible for G-d to know what we will freely choose, then that's your opinion.

I have explained why that knowledge fixes the outcome. Because it means the future is fixes, or has already happened if you prefer to look at it that way, because that is how god is able to see it. You have even agreed in previous exchanges on the issue that we cannot choose to do something that god doesn't already know we will choose.

And yet again, you avoid addressing the even more problematic issue of god predetermining the outcome of all events, which kinda makes his omniscience redundant in this context.

 

[KWED]

I know only too well.

Your argument is that if G-d knows the future, then we don't have free-will.

It is bunkum, as far as I'm concerned.
You can believe what you like.

Not quite.
The core issue is that we cannot be held responsible for events that we have no control over.
If we have no control over an event (for whatever reason), then we cannot be held responsible for it.

Do you agree?